If fully healthy, this could be the greatest offense we've ever watched
 

This is going to be exciting as **** if Hardman can play at full strength. The possibility of having Kelce, JJSS, McKinnon, Toney, and Hardman all on the field together and healthy for the 1st time is amazing. Add in a damn good RB in Pacheco and this could literally be the best offense that we've ever seen.

Imagine the shit Andy can come up with like Hardman and Toney in the backfield at the same time or McKinnon and Toney/Hardman in the backfield with Toney/Hardman potentially coming around for a jet sweep. Having JJSS as a more than competent receiving option this year and Hardman and Toney's speed is literally going to be an absolute nightmare for opposing teams.

I'm really excited for these playoff games, just gotta hope that everyone gets healed up over the next 2 weeks. HFA is huge.

So excited.

Cool.

Yup; said exact same in DC's wk 18 thread.

Kelce + Toney + JJSS + Hardman + McKinnon = pick your poison. Any of those guys can kill you, esp if they double-team or play a deep shell

Pat is pretty good at football

I should have made another Tyreek Hill thread instead.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Chiefs ended up being average defensively, and a supernova offensively. Feels right. <a href="https://t.co/4c7MLF4vs5">https://t.co/4c7MLF4vs5</a></p>&mdash; Matt Verderame (@MattVerderame) <a href="https://twitter.com/MattVerderame/status/1612517160353685505?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 9, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

This is why I don't attend rap concerts.

Damn, almost in a tier by themselves.

Didn't we score 35 a game for a good stretch once with Reek, Hunt, and a healthy Sammy?

So, what's the latest on Hardman?

That's absurd

You really do get the feeling the Chiefs have been holding back.

I don't get the sense they're holding back, but they certainly have yet to play their best game.

Patrick, his name is Patrick...



Now say Patrick three times in a row until you remember... ;)

Wh(ill)o...

He'll be back for the Divisional Round

My wild postseason prediction: Kadarius Toney SB MVP

4 catches, 80 yards, 1 TD
2 rushes, 30 yards, 1 TD
1 completion, 40 yards, 1 TD

something like that. However, every team wasn't running some version of the Fangio 6 either, not yet.

But yea, having an elite WR1, a top 20 WR2 (who could've been a decent WR1 if could ever stay healthy), and a top-5 RB made everything a lot easier.

you forgot Pop

<iframe src="https://giphy.com/embed/ookAGjUOybsm8GcchE" width="480" height="265" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="https://giphy.com/gifs/nfl-sports-football-sport-ookAGjUOybsm8GcchE">via GIPHY</a></p>

<iframe src="https://giphy.com/embed/XmJgdET2sOJaawczcq" width="480" height="263" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="https://giphy.com/gifs/nfl-sports-football-sport-XmJgdET2sOJaawczcq">via GIPHY</a></p>

Yeah, I think they dipped into the playbook a bit against the Raiders, almost as a "hey guys, here's something else you'll have to deal with"... I'm sure mostly to get Toney involved a bit before the playoffs.

I don't think it's anything crazy, like they'll start airing it out, but I feel like we'll see some new wrinkles and more jet sweeps and getting the speed guys the ball quickl, etc.

Really seemed like they flipped a switch and went into playoff mode.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/...DWsAEPntc.jpeg

LMAO yep

Offensive Viagra…

Same, feels like we’ve been doing just enough to get by. But Andy is about to unleash hell upon the league, and it’s name is Playoff Patrick!

Not holding back, necessarily. Andy had 4 brand-new WRs to deal with this season. And he's been pretty open about it; he's always installed the fundamentals first, the root plays, then worked in the 'wrinkles' as the season wears on.

Right now, most of these guys are still in the fundamentals stage. JJSS probably has the bulk of the option routes after Kelce. Hardman has to have some by now. Justin, Skyy and Toney, just as examples, probably have none. Trick plays are a different animal, but Pat said that it took until a couple weeks ago to get that snowglobe play put into a game install.

But they are an integral part of an Andy offense, and we know he installs at least one every week, just most don't get onto the field. So we'll almost definitely see several int he playoffs, assuming we don't get blown out in the first game.

Chiefs will have extra week to prepare I love it.

You don't think they've been sandbagging the playbook to some extent?

Can't have him on at the same time as the other five. You could sub him for one tho ;)

Yeah, we actually averaged 35 ppg for the entire 2018 season lol insane.

And, tbh, that wasn't even the best offense of all time.

I just remembered; yesterday I was watching some show, and they said that Andy tended to open up the playbook in the last week or two of the season, to force DCs to have to account for what could be run from those concepts. In common language, Andy likes to eff with people.

It was RGR. That was the show.

I reiterate, you beat the cover 2 with speed. Hot, nasty, badass speed.

Y'all can have your 'physical' WRs and 'zone beaters' who don't actually have any stand out skills to speak of.

I want jackrabbits. You give me Toney, Hardman and MVS out on that field with Kelce and this offense will hum like we haven't ever seen.

You can only cover so much grass, fellas. The limiting factor that has historically existed on this approach was the QB, but our QB can challenge every square inch of turf.

So give him targets that can get to them.

At times, maybe a little.

But they weren't sandbagging against Buffalo or Cincinnati - there was just too much on the line.

But we haven't had a full compliment of targets all season.

We should in 2 weeks.

And now you'll witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational battle station...

andy been sandbagging all year

We also allowed 26.3 ppg lol. We had to go and score like that. This year we've allowed 21.7 ppg. If we ever have a D like that while Patrick is in his prime, then holy shit. I guarantee that our offense would break the all time record of 37.9 ppg.

I 100% expect teams to swarm Kelce in the postseason.

We're going to see HUGE plays from our speed guys.

The increased use of stats in analysis has been really interesting if only because of how teams counter it.

'Tendency breakers' are more than just something of an interesting turn of phrase. I mean sometimes they're used to run against type and actually produce. But oftentimes it truly is something that coaches call just to **** with the spreadsheets.

If anyone's doing that right now, I don't think it's Andy - I think it's Spags.

Think of how much less often we've been blitzing, especially on 3rd downs. And why? I think Spags is trying to drive down those blitz rates. Sure, just keep making your spreadsheet more involved and you can pare out more and more white noise, but the more involved the numbers are, the more prone guys get to paralysis by analysis.

I think there are coaches - and we have a few of them - who calls plays ESPECIALLY to screw with trends that analytics departments are trying to use to establish an edge. You run those things out there to dick up the ratios and the pocket protector brigade doesn't really recognize it, IMO. Next thing you know they're feeding the DC raw numbers of what someone does in a similar situation and those numbers are flawed because the coaching staff actively dicked with them during the regular season.

PM's gotta hit 'em.

The chemistry with him and MVS is still off. And frankly, Mahomes has always thrown too flat of a deep ball.

But he doesn't have to bat 1.000 here. Hit 1 early and another in the 2nd half and that may be all it takes.

No, not really.

I think the Chiefs have a big-ass play book and we won't see everything every week, not because they're sandbagging, but because the gameplan simply may not call for it.

I don't imagine the Chiefs will look much different come playoffs, just maybe a couple extra plays here and there that they dreamed up that week, as we've seen mostly every week.

Patrick still has NEVER had a good WR2.

Never.

This is a really interesting concept that I never even thought about.

Yeah the combo of Pat with Kelce,Juju,Hardman,Toney, McKinnon is gonna be damn tough to stop. Good luck to opposing defenses.

Interesting, can't say I remember it in previous seasons, at least not to the extent of the Raiders game.

Their style of holding back is seriously frustrating at times, but in those games I almost just have to laugh and think... well, might want to pull your heads out of your asses.:shrug: And they do at an alarming rate.

Patrick's biggest weakness is on deep goes or fade routes. Sometimes he just doesn't have the touch. Deep crossing routes where he can put some zip on it and throw it low...hes the best to ever do it.

Contrary to popular belief you don't need to have an exceptional arm to throw the deep go or fade route. Your primarily just throwing it up high and accuracy and touch are more important. See Burrow, Brady and Seahawk Russell Wilson.

So in a sense not having Tyreek is sometimes a blessing. But Tyreek ran all sorts of routes too.

I can't prove a damn bit of it.

But I know how numbers work and I absolutely believe it to be true. The savvy coaches in this league are no different than someone like Greg Maddux. Maddux used to go out there and with 2 outs and nobody on, give up a base hit on purpose. He'd get ahead in the count and groove one to the guy.

And if that dude came up 3 weeks later with 2 runners on a tie ballgame, he'd get ahead and the count again and throw the nastiest pitch he had because he knows that guy remembers the last AB when he got a cement mixer and it's in the back of his mind.

Supercharge that and apply it to the data revolution and I just cannot imagine coaches aren't doing it.

It's more than just sandbagging - it's actively suppressing your tendencies to throw off the analytics.

I read this:

And immediately thought this:

The Chiefs have plenty of speed. But Mahomes misses more than he hits on those deep vertical shots down the sideline.

We've seen time and time again, both with MVS and Hardman, both dudes getting wide the **** open and PM either flat out misses or just doesn't see them.

It's not really a great part of PM's game right now. Just gotta hope PM catches fire with those in the playoffs.

He just doesn't throw it high and lead guys as well as he should. I can't figure it out.

A couple times this year, he's had Watson on a post and he just doesn't throw it out in front of him.

Where I think he really struggles is double-moves.

Because those routes need a lot of touch and the WR has to be able to locate and adjust to the ball coming out of his route.

Mahomes throws such a flat deep shot that the timing has to be absolutely perfect and that's just damn tough to do on a double move where there a half-dozen different things that can get that WRs route changed.

I honestly think that's why we don't use them much. Folks typically blame the OL but I think it's the lack of air Mahomes puts under his deep ball.

He's overcorrected, IMO.

You just can't overthrow a guy with a full stride and give them no chance, so he started underthrowing them a bit.

Then you have folks (it's a hobby on CP) blaming the pass catcher for not "Going up and getting the ball!"

Fellas, there have been a half-dozen guys in NFL history that can do that. Hill could. But there's a reason 'Mossed' became a verb. That shit is RARE. You're asking a guy who's running on a dead sprint with his momentum taking him downfield to simply go straight up, turn his body and secure a catch with a guy coming downhill into his lap.

The simple act of stopping and going straight up is essentially impossible for all but the absolute elite of the elite. The rest need to decelerate, gather and then explode. MVS can't do that because he's not Tyreek Hill. If you underthrow him, he's not going to catch it. And it's not something that he 'needs to do!' - it's something that he physically CANNOT do because he's not a goddamn freak of nature.

There was a perfect example against the Raiders and of course the usual suspects "Why doesn't MVS just go up and get that!" - because he's running a goddamn windsprint down the field and had to jump, turn and catch a ball all in one motion. Mere mortals don't do that - HoF players do. Quit asking MVS to make that catch because if/when he does, it's really just dumb luck. Really good players don't make that catch, let along slightly above average ones. You've gotta make a better throw.

What I'd like to see Patrick do a little more of is throw to an open area and let his WR adjust laterally. That's a lot more doable. The throw doesn't have to be as precise because the WR can adjust his angle to it without trying to fully put the brakes on his momentum. So throw to the inside/outside of someone like that and let them try to change their angle.

But those throws directly over the top? Shit man, they're just REALLY hard throws to make and if they aren't really good throws, they're damn near impossible catches to bring in.

"Do what Calvin Johnson or Randy Moss did and "come back to it"."

Well, yeah, I mean, do what the freaks of all freaks could do. Sure, yeah, right.

I think he banks on the potential for the catch/flag too much with the underthrows. YOu won't get as many walk in TD's, which we've missed a few of.

Lynn Swann has been on highlight reels for 50 years because he did it once. That single catch probably put him in the Hall.

"Man, I wish we had guys who could go up and catch those balls...."

{sigh}

Ok, and then there's plays like the non-call DPI from Saturday, in which MVS wilted like a delicate flower with relatively minor contact.

Our WR's can def be stronger at the point of attack. That's not a part of MVS or Hardman's game.

So yes, we CAN ask our pass catchers to do more to help Mahomes out. Because yeah, Mahomes isn't always the most accurate down the field.

It's the entire reason why i argue against these small catch radius WR's.

Yeah, I can't remember it specifically, but I don't rehash every game looking specifically for how many new plays are run. Unless it's pretty out there, a lot of times I don't notice until someone else brings it up.

I do remember one year, though i couldn't nail down exactly which now, so probably at least a couple three years ago, when Andy finished the season with more than the usual number of trick plays, and I got amped about it to the point that I predicted a ton of them in the playoffs. But that didn't really happen. There were trick plays, but not a big infusion of them.

pretty sure toney is better at it than anyone else on the roster right now

he's gotten two of those kinds of balls from mahomes in very limited reps

Toney is good at it. We've seen it pay off twice now.

It's not nearly as rare a skill is DJ is making it out to be.

There's a whole lot of meat between MVS/Hardman's lack of physicality and a HOF WR. Plenty.

Hardman is just an athlete, he isn't really a WR. MVS is what he is, he's skinny as hell so he isn't gonna out muscle anyone.

It's the same argument people make about basketball players at the NBA level needing to be "stronger" around the basket.

Well, when they guy bumping you is 6"8 and also a freak athlete, yeah, it's hard to do. There's a reason Lebron or MJ or whoever is such a great finisher around the rim. Not everyone can do it.

MVS doesn't have a small catch radius. He runs downfield routes that require full speed movement and exceptionally high levels of momentum. That guy is long and fast with big arms and good leaping ability. He doesn't have a small catch radius - he simply has a low probability route tree.

He's not a low variance player. He's not a possession WR. If he were, with his frame and speed, he'd be Julio Jones.

He's not that guy because he doesn't have the freakish body control that Julio Jones had. So let's just stop acting like he should be.

And Toney has truly rare physical skills.

That whip route he ran...sweet jesus, I pulled a hamstring watching it.

It's exactly what made Tyreek Hill as elite as he was. His ability to gather and explode at full speed is incredibly uncommon.

Body control ain't a given. Before Toney, we've had one guy in probably 25 years who demonstrated any proficiency with it (Hill).

Not everyone can do it.

But it's also not some super rare skill that you can't find except in HoF players.

I Like MVS and Hardman. I like their game. Their game is not physical though. And i think that plays a role in Mahomes' decision making.

He's bigger and stronger than probably 80% of the DBs who are contesting those balls. His size isn't what's preventing those catches.

Because it isn't about size. It's about body control.

Ben Skowronek for the Rams. He was able to go up and get balls for Baker. But maybe that's because he's not that fast.

He also has weird quirks...check this out...if he goes right in the route he'll almost always catch the ball if he goes left he almost never catches the ball, it's weird as hell.

MJ is a fascinating example. Guys could run faster and jump higher than him. But man, the stuff he could do in the air was just absurd. And it wasn't because he was bigger than those defenders - he could just contort in ways that even elite athletes can't.

Those times he 'hung' in the air - shit man, he didn't defy gravity; physics still applied to him. But he could adjust his body so seamlessly that it looked like he was up there longer than anyone else.

That's what the truly great contested catch receivers (at least the downfield versions) could do.

Ben Skowronek for the Rams. He was able to go up and get balls for Baker. But maybe that's because he's not that fast. Plus, he's just a WR5.

Ehhhh idk about that one, man. Taller, sure. Faster in a straight line, sure.

"Skinniest ankles i've ever seen" -Andy Reid.

Dude is kind of a rail and while i agree about body control, playing through contact is a trait too, one he nor Hardman feature.

On that DPI-non call from Saturday, it's a great example of what i mean.

Julio was 6'4 and had the hip flexibility of a 5'10 guy. Plus the athleticism of an all time player.

People want these big strong dudes that can run great routes too. Take DK for example. He isn't gonna be a great route runner. Physics won't allow it. He can't break in and out of cuts like Tyreek or like AB in his prime.

44% success rate on downfield passes. Worse than MVS.

Average depth of target - 8.0 yards; a full 7 yards per target shorter than MVS.

Guys, you're asking unreasonable things here and providing non-applicable examples. Yes, there are times a WR can jump up and catch a pass. But what you're talking about is a downfield receiver in full gallop stopping his momentum, going straight up, turning his body and bringing the ball in.

It doesn't happen NEARLY as frequently as y'all seem to think it does. And it certainly isn't guys running routes way downfield that tend to do it.

If you go team by team you'll find a large number of guys who are better at what we're describing than MVS and Hardman. It's really not THAT rare.

Me, personally, don't give a damn about "great routes".

Give me elite body control, speed and size. Coaches will figure out how to make him turn left.

Yeah - I didn't see it (or don't recall it). I'd have to hunt it up.

Remember when we were talking about WRs and I said I like Austin because if you give me two fast guys, I'll take the guy with the shorter stride length because of how often those guys have feet on the ground and thus how hard they are to knock off their route?

You take a guy who's relatively skinny AND has a long stride length, how much contact do you really think he's going to be able to battle through?

This isn't the question of 'want to' that so many people want to make it. It's physics.

Yeah the offense will be great…just as long as our 2 wonder boy tackles are adequately blocking. Mahomes is best at improv, but we don’t need him running for his life the entire game.

The first half of 2018 was obviously the greatest offense in KC history.

The point I've been making, is that Stone Hands at least tried. And came down with some balls in the process. I don't care about his completion rate in this argument, because he's a WR5. He's not supposed to come down with more balls than MVS, so who cares what his actual completion rate is? Plus, he's had four different QBs throwing to him this year, so who knows if he'd have caught more balls with just some continuity.

But MVS has had the same guy throwing balls to him, so he doesn't get that excuse.

And while we're at it, you know who came down with a lot of those type passes for Mahomes in the past? D. Robinson. Did he have a great catch rate on deep balls? i don't know, and I really don't care what the actual percentage was. What matters in this discussion, is that D.Rob made an effort to go get passes in the vertical, and came down with some of them.

No one is asking MVS to be DHop/Diggs/J. Jefferson, etc. We all know he ain't that dude.

But he's 6'3" or whatever. and he's technically KC's WR2, so he's supposed to basically be the Chiefs equivalent of Mike Williams for LAC. Mike goes up in the air for footballs.

Just use your height/length when able, man, that's all. If not, then what makes him any different from Hardman at 5'11" or whatever? Not much, as far as I can tell.

The 49ers game was a good case study on this and I’d argue that it was our best offensive game of the season.

The pure speed of Hardman and MVS opened everything up. But with cover 2 you already have 2 guys taking the reigns off the deep ball. Then 2 more usually on Kelce.

Andy schemed Juju open several times that game and the speed/Kelce matchup’s clearly had Juju 1v1 and he won. A lot.

Andy even got him matched up on a LB multiple times due to this and it killed SF’s defense. We also did this with Sammy Watkins with great success.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/w8DP3kf56GQ" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe>

"I don't care what the data supports - I know what I know and MVS is jaking passes out there..."

Um...okay.

Guess there ain't much to talk about when you've made your decision, data be damned.

What you 'know' is that MVS is supposed to be our Mike Williams. So what you know is really remarkably wrong-headed. But you know it, so I guess you've got that going for you.

We have 3 WR's in our division that can do it. 4 if you count Sutton, which imo, qualifies as well. We don't have to look far.

MVS is not aggressive in going to the ball. It always seems like he's waiting for it to come into his chest. He's way too passive.

I think the top 5 players (if healthy) from 2018 edge out the top 5 from this year (if healthy)

TE: Kelce - push - Kelce
WR1: Hill > JuJu
WR2: Watkins > MVS
RB: Hunt > Pacheco
WR3: Conley < Hardman

Lolz, whatever, man. MVS is our 2, Skrowronek is a 5, but Ben will at least attack the football above his head.

And MVS isn't coming down with footballs a whole lot more often than Stone Hands. What is it, 6%? With more targets, more athleticism, and a much better QB.

You're right; I don't really have anything else to say on the matter. It's pretty simple.

Im not acting like he should be Julio Jones, lol.

No, he's not a possession WR. Agreed.

I agree, he runs a low probability route tree.

I agree, he doesn't have freaky body control.

I'm not asking him to be anything more than what he is. Again, i like MVS. ****, i said, and still believe, he's a better talent than JuJu.

I want MVS on this roster moving forward. Hell, i wanna retain Hardman too.

I think they're fine in their respective roles.

What i'm asking for is someone with the physicality to win contested catches, while still having the speed to challenge vertically that can compliment those guys.

A JuJu that can run?

A Sammy Watkins that can stay healthy?

A George Pickens, even????

I'm not asking for the sun and the moon here.

MY position, is that we need to get more out of JuJu's position.

I think they've been playing the hand they were dealt. New receivers across the board and injuries to the speed guys have altered the looks.

You can't sit here and tell me that what im asking for is too much, when we just passed on what im asking for in the 2nd round.

Most of those guys you are wanting or talked about earlier, well.....they got drafted pretty early.

Mike Williams, etc.