How do you feel about the attempted laterals last week?
 

Are we going to see more? Should we? Is this the next evolution?

No, and Reid told Kelce to stop.

Much rather see ‘Snow Globe’ or ‘Hungry Pig Right’ on 3rd and 1 from the 18.

It scared the ever loving shit out of me when it happened. I don't specifically know if it's a play design or just something Kelce did but with our propensity to turn the ball over this season I would hope they put a stop to it unless it's a sure thing. Kelce tried to lateral 15 ****ing yards!

Agreed. I was pissed at Kelce, it was dangerous and unnecessary. He threw it too low and too fast.

Yeah, that wasn't an actual Andy play; just something Kelce has some license to attempt.

He might try it in the SB.

Probably going to see at least three or four Andy Reid Specials in the SB as well.

Kelce said on his podcast he had another opportunity to do it later in the game to Gray and that’s when he actually should’ve done it as it would’ve gone for a TD. Was that the 4th quarter reception before the last punt?

Kelces podcast had me rolling. I thought we were trying to get creative with playcalling knowing we had to put it all on the line with mahomes and kelce injured. Nope. Kelce just decided he wanted to do it. But at this point kelce can run backwards for 2 safeties and I’d still love the guy. Can’t possibly stay mad at the guy.

As long as we win, I don't care. Style points << actual points.

LMAO Andy had a little talk with Kelce i bet.

Too cute could have been a costly TO

andy should incorporate them into the gameplan

practice makes perfect

Mahomes was asked about completing a behind the back pass in a game... and he said 'maybe not the SB', but we all know that's code for doing it in the SB.

I suspect we'll see the snow globe huddle followed by a behind the back pass to Kelce, who laterals it to Toney down the sideline for a touchdown.

I think the idea is generally really interesting. He knew the bengals were gonna be swarming him because they said they would.

Kelce talks about how he blacks out when he talks on the big stage because he’s so fired up. I think he’s the same with trick plays. He gets too excited and forces it. As smart as the guy is he makes some baaadddd decisions on trick plays. Best leave him to his instincts which as a receiver and runner of the football are out of this world.

Lol, that would be epic. Make it so!!!

If it results in a TD I’m fine with it.

We know Travis would never do this type of thing to showboat. I do wonder if a big part of this was knowing he was hurt and trying to pass off to someone who could run better or take more hits. Or if he just knew the bengals were going to swarm at him as soon as he got the ball knowing they bulletin board posting that they’d knock him around as soon as he got the ball. I’m guessing both. Guy is way too football smart to try this multiple times if there wasn’t a strategy in mind

It wasn't a real trick play. Jerrick had no idea Travis was going to pitch that ball at him, you can tell in the highlights.

Now, if it was a trick play, a couple things would have to be tweaked, like Kelce would have to be at least 3-4 yards closer to the sideline, basically standing on the numbers. And McKinnon would have to sprint the first part of that wheel route. I know, it wasn't a real wheel, it was just a flat that Jerrick turned upfield when he saw all that green ahead of him. But if they wanted to turn it into a trick play, they'd have to get the two of them closer together and McKinnon would have to hustle through the turn upfield for the timing to work out right.

I was at the Lions game in 2019 when he lateraled to McCoy for a big gain. It genuinely could be a real part of our offense if it were scripted. And I wouldn’t entirely put that past Reid at some point.

I liked the idea if used at the correct time. Aggressive good. Running the ball on 1st down bad.

I was wondering if Andy added that play to get Cincinnati to think twice about bum-rushing to Kelce to hold him up and strip him again. They would be rushing to Kelce leaving the guy wide open down the sideline.

I guess not per the podcast. If he had made a good lateral that was probably gone a long ways and maybe a TD with a move.

Well yeah, I don’t mean to say it was a designed trick play. It may not have been called that way but Travis was trying to make it a trick play.

Yeah, I watched the podcast last night, and I was surprised that Kelce said that he had the okay from Andy to try that in a game for awhile now. But after he thought about it (but didn't do it) a little later, Andy pulled him off the field and actually told him to shelf the lateral thing until further notice.

It had potential but yeah everyone needs to be prepped for it

Like when a team starts a game or a half off with an onside kick, why not try another type of desperate situation play in a non-desperate time of the game to steal a score

Karma was against the Bengals arrogance or it may have been disaster

Sure when it works it’s great. But what if the play breaks down? Travis has talked about why he doesn’t throw passes anymore. Because they designed a trick play for him and instead of throwing the ball away on a blown play he threw a meatball interception. This time around McKinnon was far far away but he wanted to try it anyway because he had it in his head that he could make it work. Travis is a lot of great things but he’s probably a liability in these situations where we ask him to do something besides receive and run. He doesn’t have the elite instincts he has as a receiver to shut his excitement down when he is determined to make something happen

I like the advantage it could bring but it looked like he could use some more practice. First toss was bad, second toss was indecisive... not very inspiring.
So then, do they use practice time for this? I'm not so sure. Maybe send Kelce to baseball camp in the off-season?

I've always wondered if Andy has a reverse lateral play in that bag of tricks. Something like a trips flood concept, with whoever coming from the other way underneath that flood of receivers that takes the lateral. The flood should draw the entire secondary to the wrong side, so easy TD?

I mean, it's kind of crazy, but we do lateral reverses all the time behind the LoS, so 5-10 yards upfield shouldn't be that big of a deal.

Was not a fan

I don’t know if it’s practice. For me it’s more about instinct. I don’t care if a punter played qb in high school, there are so many scenarios where a play breaks down and the punter makes an insanely bad decision with a fake that a fake punt scares the hell out of me. Practice can’t prepare you for all these scenarios when a play breaks down

Not sure if we'll ever see it, but that really would be the next frontier of football if someone got really aggressive. The same way some NBA teams play positionless basketball. Be able to field a team with 2-3 former QBs out there you could trust to run laterals, double passes, things like that. You'd be able to create some real matchup nightmares.

The play was awesome if executed successfully. As it turned out I wish we had saved it for the SB.

How do you feel about the attempted laterals last week?

Poorly

I'm OK with the occasional hook and ladder play. Especially at the end of the half or right at the sideline where it goes out of bounds if the guy drops it.

Whoa, slow down. Football coaches just started figuring out not going for it at the 40 is dumb. They still dont believe you should go for two early in games. Hold your horses. Slow progress is needed for football coaches. Baby steps. Too much will overwhelm them as it contradicts what they've always thought to be true.

The same way in the NBA. In 1980 they shot an avg of 2.0 3PT FGs per game. By 2000 it was 13.7. Now its 34.

There's a big difference when it's a designed play rather than some ad hoc acrobatics done out of structure. My point is that there could certainly be a time and place for this in a game that would really be explosive.

The beauty of this is that if the play breaks down it's likely just a simple completion and not some busted play like some HB pass out of wildcat.

We should lateral on every play to confuse the defense when we don’t

I liked it. If it worked and went for a touchdown we'd all have to go to the hospital 4 hours later cuz the erection won't go away.

I wasn’t a fan of it. I felt it was a a cutesy play and mistake against a team we can’t afford to make those against. Thankfully it didn’t backfire.

I only remember the one early in the game, but we were fortunate that it was recovered. Turns out that could have been the difference in the game if that went badly.

Yeah there are plays like the hook and ladder where there’s less likelihood of breakdown. As long as it comes from Reid. I’m not at all against trick plays with kelce. I’m just pointing out that when the play does breakdown he can be a liability. If the pitch isn’t there can you trust him to eat it? Because we’ve seen on a few occasions that Travis in particular doesn’t like to give up on a play which is tremendous as a receiver but very scary when he plays the role of qb.

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I like the idea for the NFL but not for the Chiefs. We already have the #1 offense so we have the least to gain from this kind of risk. But some awful, shitty teams should be out there trying stuff like this. What the **** do Broncos have to lose?

I love it generally and I think it's probably the next evolution in football offensively for a team that can practice and execute it properly.

I don't think doing it for the first time in the AFC Championship was an appropriate time for it though.

I liked the creativity. We only needed a little more accuracy and it would have been a big gainer. Plus, it makes defenses deal with more in their game planning.

I'm cool with whatever kelce does. Even when he fumbled in the regular season Bengals game i just thought, that's a shame. Still the man kelce.

As someone who has been a lifelong rugby league fan prior to getting into NFL I have always wanted this to be tried properly at scale but with much better technique I.E. not with the flea flicker pushing the ball technique that tends to make the trajectory of the ball stay very low and dip.

Genuine running with the ball in 2 hands making it possible to pass left or right or take contact if needed would be a very good way of negating pass rushers and holding linebackers and safeties.

I liked the aggressiveness of the laterals when they were going against a high octane opponent and our QB was limited.

We won so I will say I can laugh about it now, but it was too risky for too little gain, IMO. You're talking about a possible turnover or maybe McKinnon gaining an additional 10-15 yards (I don't think he scores there..)

With an offense as good as the one we've got, we don't need to resort to that sort of stuff.

I don't care to see that stuff during the regular season except for extreme situations at the end of a half or towards the end of the game when they really need a score.

That said....To get to the Superbowl...or IN the SuperBowl? Nothing is off the table for me as a fan. Let it rip.

This is exactly how I feel about it.

You shouldn't

I dig them - football should be fun :)

That said, I'd probably be more inclined to enjoy them if it was a 3-5 yard lateral and not 10 LMAO

Yes, that was a little too far for that, he should have been closer. And it was an extremely good bounce once it hit the ground. Got lucky there it seems.

Other than that, if Andy says it's good, it's good. :thumb:

That’s my issue. Kelce is an ex quarterback so technically he can make these kinds of trick plays. And the guy is so committed to winning we know it’s not showboating. He’s exploiting a tendency. But I’m not sure he has a kill switch. He’s so committed to making it work that he will force something when it’s not there. That to me is the risk and why I don’t love it.

Smart play. Looked like the receiver had pulled the corner out of his zone and the linebacker had curled around to take down kelce. Had Kelce made a five yard toss it could have been a TD. Nobody around the running back.

That was my thought at the time, Travis was trying to avoid being hit with the way his back was.

The evolution of the NBA is this:

The refs don't call traveling or carrying the ball anymore
Nobody plays legitimate defense anymore

I quit watching the NBA years ago. It's pathetic, at best. Guys don't even have to try to get open looks on the perimeter and even when they do they just travel and carry their way to one. Real great stuff.

As for the NFL, you're pretty spot on but teams only really started getting into analytics heavily 10 years ago and they continually work to enhance it. Coaches are still going to do what they feel is the best outcome for the way the game is flowing, whether they 100% buy into analytics or not. Going for it at the 40 isn't automatic. While the analytics say go for it if it's 4th and 7 or less, the ideal marker is usually 4th and 4 or less. I think Reid is too conservative in this respect but he's an old dog.

The Sporting News put out a pretty sweet set of graphs a couple of weeks back that really backed up the notion to go for it on 4th down in several instances. I've attached them for everyone.

All for it

You absolutely should (go for 2) in a part of the game where achieving the most expected points is the goal, which would be ALWAYS in 0-0 or 7-7 or 14-7 etc scores early in games. And definitely in most scenarios when behind.

The expected value of kicking an extra point is .952 points. The expected value for going for it is .964. The difference actually increases to favor going for it even more the better your offense is. Its small margins but you should always make the best decision. Football coaches simply don't go for two enough because of fans and job security. Humans don't like to fail emotionally. So they get villified if they go for two and lost by one point but lauded way less if they made 3 (2) point conversions and won by 2.

(Edit - I believe this has some extra point data from when it was a closer kick so if anything the gap is even WIDER favoring going for two)

https://www.boydsbets.com/nfl-two-po...-success-rate/

To further expand, teams in general have much greater success when they RUN vs PASS on two-point conversions. If you've read my posts I'm a huge proponent of ALMOST never running the ball except on short yardage. I actually think many teams actually pass TOO MUCH on 2 yards or less situations and the data supports that.

https://www.bruinsportsanalytics.com/post/going_for_two

We should just let supercomputers call the plays.

And Chad Henne should take all the 3rd and short snaps.

Agreed. Bring him on for a QB sneak or two

I loved it. If you can get to where the lateralee(?) knows where to be to get the ball, it's a great play that makes us that more difficult to defend. Of course, we ran the hell out of the option in HS, so it was always there.

The Eagles should absolutely go for 2 at all times.

An average run team should arguably go for 2 at all times.

A Chiefs offense that’s insanely and perplexingly poor on short yardage situations absolutely shouldn’t go for 2 at all times.

That’s where these stats pumped out by BWillie’s supercomputer fail.

If it works it's great, if it doesn't I hate it. Haha

Keep doing it until it is no longer fun.

We should use Mahomes, but since we won't ever QB sneak then yes it would likely yield better results than, you know being dead last on 3rd and short. The fact that for much of the year we used non-short yardage backs (CEH and McKinnon) in such spots also is an issue. Guys like Pacheco, Rojo or a fullback would be better in these situations.

Wish we could. Coaches make massive EPA mistakes almost every game.

Lol, and yet somehow poor old Andy is right about 80% of the time. Meanwhile, most of the 'metrix' coaches did nothing, except maybe get fired or didn't even make the playoffs, so . . . yeah, I'm good with Andy and Spags just using their brains, thanks.

There were lots of Bengals around him.

https://i.ibb.co/MVhvhPn/lateral.jpg

Ya know I really like them because most all the time when Andy does these plays they work. However, this particular play by Kelce did not look practiced AT ALL. Come to find out he was improvising and explains everything. There's only ONE MASTER IMPROVISER on this team and we all know who that is!!;)

Um, what's your definition of "around"?

The closest Bengal is about 7 yards away, moving towards Kelce not the sideline. The next closest is about 8 yards away and only a yard upfield, so non-factors as far as McKinnon's acceleration/speed is concerned. No other Bengal is less than 15 yards from McK.

The ball is half way between Kelce and McKinnon. By the time he touches it, CTB straight in front of him, 10 yards away, moving towards him. The other two close in towars the sideline as well and they're both closer than CTB.

If he catches it clean, he's probably somewhere around the 15 yd line before contact.

that's like a 20 yard gain, and only if he doesn't juke the last defender and score. Which definitely would a possibility considering how slippery Jerrick can be in the open field.

There are certain decisions that are so obvious they should not even be left to coaches. Coaches value are teaching schemes, creating offensive and defensive architecture, working with players, film etc. It would be really refreshing for a coach to come along someday and admit he completely delegates decisions in high leverage situations and allows himself to be overriden when he attempts do make a decision that would yield a large projected EPA difference than the ideal decision.

That was my thinking too. I don’t think McKinnon would have done much with it but Gray could have. Given the situation (3rd and goal), it would have been great too. I think he just didn’t want to look foolish again.

Detroit ran a designed WR lateral against the Pack. It would be great if Andy would lift that for Kelce and Toney/Hardman/McKinnon.

Possible but i don't think likely. Defenders close quick in this league.

Lol, you’re the one who said he’d get to the 15; that’s 20 yards right there

I was replying to a poster that said no one was around him and it could have been a TD.

Well, as I said initially, the closest defender was about 7 yards away and moving in the wrong direction with just one defender actually downfield of McK, so he had a legitimate chance to score.