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-   -   Chiefs Seth Keysor sees what we see... (https://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=356043)

DJ's left nut 11-22-2024 09:14 AM

Seth Keysor sees what we see...
 
https://open.substack.com/pub/mnchie...utm_medium=web

I don't typically re-post his stuff because I think you want to support guys trying to freelance like he does. But I think this contributes to conversation enough to be worthwhile.

Spoiler!



It's what many of us have been saying - those folks that are killing the OT play just aren't paying that much attention. Yes, it's been bad at times. No, it's not the primary problem for a great deal many of these games.

On Sunday the issues were overwhelmingly Trey Smith and Patrick Mahomes. The pass protection issues have extended well beyond the OT play. And Patrick Mahomes is the single biggest culprit to the misfiring offense (at least he was in Buffalo and that was just a continuation of what we've seen this season, IMO)

Sassy Squatch 11-22-2024 09:18 AM

We've played 10 games so far this season. 3 of those games the LT play has nearly singlehandedly wrecked the game. I'm honestly baffled why folks are so determined to hand wave the OT play away as anything other than substandard at best.

DJ's left nut 11-22-2024 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sassy Squatch (Post 17818163)
We've played 10 games so far this season. 3 of those games the LT play has nearly singlehandedly wrecked the game. I'm honestly baffled why folks are so determined to hand wave the OT play away as anything other than substandard at best.

It's because folks like you want to say "The OTs are why the offense sucks!" and move along.

Put Orlando Pace at LT on Sunday and the offense would've still been bad. And that's been the case several times this season.

Nobody is arguing that the LT play has been elite or even good. More often than not this season I think it's been slightly below average.

What I've been saying at least is that many folks (you loudly among them) are making this issue FAR simpler than it is. There's a lot going wrong with this offense and despite a pretty solid day from Morris last weekend (and Nagy dialing up many plays that SHOULD'VE worked), the offense was as bad as it's been all year.

CPs favorite whipping boys are maybe 1/3 of the problem right now.

Chitownchiefsfan 11-22-2024 09:26 AM

Is it possible that both are true? Mahomes doesn't trust the oline which is causing him to rush things and leave the pocket before he needs to?

Dunerdr 11-22-2024 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 17818167)
It's because folks like you want to say "The OTs are why the offense sucks!" and move along.



CPs favorite whipping boys are maybe 1/3 of the problem right now.

Uchieffybutthole is 1/3 of the problem?

ChiTown 11-22-2024 09:29 AM

It's been obvious to anyone paying attention that PMII isn't on his game. The question is why? What's changed? Some of those answers are obvious (trust in receivers and lack of OL protection/trust in OL protection), but the other factors aren't that obvious. Maybe it's just a combo of those two items that are creating a lot of head trash for Pat and making him into a more average NFL QB. I don't know...

htismaqe 11-22-2024 09:30 AM

More than anything, this just shows how astute CP members are when it comes to football. 🤘

DJ's left nut 11-22-2024 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chitownchiefsfan (Post 17818176)
Is it possible that both are true? Mahomes doesn't trust the oline which is causing him to rush things and leave the pocket before he needs to?

Did you watch how many times Wilson stood in last night and took a SHOT to get the ball downfield?

I'm ****ing done with "Mahomes doesn't trust the OL"

You're an NFL quarterback. You're gonna get hit. Put your big boy pants on and play the position.

Besides, as was noted in the article, his indecision is GETTING him blasted about half the time. Throw the damn ball on time and you can avoid a bunch of these shots you're taking.

BWillie 11-22-2024 09:31 AM

It's just snowballed. Mahomes is playing scared because he doesn't trust his blind side (or in last games case the middle of the line even). And when the protection actually is there and he bails early it looks bad

BigRedChief 11-22-2024 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 17818160)
https://open.substack.com/pub/mnchie...utm_medium=web

I don't typically re-post his stuff because I think you want to support guys trying to freelance like he does. But I think this contributes to conversation enough to be worthwhile.

He kills it. Worth the $5 a month.

DJ's left nut 11-22-2024 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 17818182)
More than anything, this just shows how astute CP members are when it comes to football. 🤘

Just about everything he said in that article was said almost point for point at various points Monday and Tuesday. And we didn't sit there and re-chart all his snaps to get there.

"Man, Trey Smith was awful and did you see Pat completely vapor lock that first interception by not ripping it up the rail to Gray right after the fake?" was an IMMEDIATE reaction on Sunday night 'round here.

Yeah, we have some smart dudes on this board.

Gary Cooper 11-22-2024 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 17818183)
Did you watch how many times Wilson stood in last night and took a SHOT to get the ball downfield?

I'm ****ing done with "Mahomes doesn't trust the OL"

You're an NFL quarterback. You're gonna get hit. Put your big boy pants on and play the position.

Besides, as was noted in the article, his indecision is GETTING him blasted about half the time. Throw the damn ball on time and you can avoid a bunch of these shots you're taking.

Mahomes is so great at escaping and making highlight reel throws on the run (or runs with his legs) that he frequently abandons mechanics and also leaves the pocket. He believes he can make a play with his legs. As opposed to say a prime Brady or Manning who didn't have the physical tools of Mahomes but in the situation you explained above, they would stay in the pocket and take those shots.

DJ's left nut 11-22-2024 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiTown (Post 17818181)
It's been obvious to anyone paying attention that PMII isn't on his game. The question is why? What's changed? Some of those answers are obvious (trust in receivers and lack of OL protection/trust in OL protection), but the other factors aren't that obvious. Maybe it's just a combo of those two items that are creating a lot of head trash for Pat and making him into a more average NFL QB. I don't know...

I think he's stretched thin. These guys are human.

Between off-the field obligations (sponsorships, celebrity status, team friggen ownership) and being a parent, guy has a LOT going on.

It's probably just a little harder to stay completely locked in during the season than it used to be.

Doesn't mean he can't dial it back in for the post-season, but if he gets into the habit of feeling phantom pressure, that's gonna be harder to break.

Sassy Squatch 11-22-2024 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 17818167)
It's because folks like you want to say "The OTs are why the offense sucks!" and move along.

Put Orlando Pace at LT on Sunday and the offense would've still been bad. And that's been the case several times this season.

Nobody is arguing that the LT play has been elite or even good. More often than not this season I think it's been slightly below average.

What I've been saying at least is that many folks (you loudly among them) are making this issue FAR simpler than it is. There's a lot going wrong with this offense and despite a pretty solid day from Morris last weekend (and Nagy dialing up many plays that SHOULD'VE worked), the offense was as bad as it's been all year.

CPs favorite whipping boys are maybe 1/3 of the problem right now.

When in the **** have I ever said the LT position is the only problem? There's plenty of other reasons why this offense and Mahomes aren't anywhere near where they should be.

Obviously, injuries are chief amongst them, but even taking that into account the on field personnel rotations are ****ing shitty right now. Guys like Watson and Steele shouldn't be taking nearly the amount of snaps they have been.

Mahomes deserves a pretty fair amount of criticism as well. Plenty of other QBs function just fine in this situation, and he's got enough support that he shouldn't be devolving into a complete pumpkin for large stretches at a time.

But again, these issues do largely correlate to bad OL play. Offense looked just fine against the Ravens. Get to the Bengals game, Suamataia absolutely shits himself, and Mahomes regressed to an absolutely horrible standard of play for literal weeks. Even before Rice got hurt, this offense looked ****ing horrible against the Bengals, Falcons, and Chargers, and Mahomes was out there making some of the worst throws of his career, which has unfortunately became a bit of a trend this season.

RedinTexas 11-22-2024 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 17818183)
Did you watch how many times Wilson stood in last night and took a SHOT to get the ball downfield?

I'm ****ing done with "Mahomes doesn't trust the OL"

You're an NFL quarterback. You're gonna get hit. Put your big boy pants on and play the position.

Besides, as was noted in the article, his indecision is GETTING him blasted about half the time. Throw the damn ball on time and you can avoid a bunch of these shots you're taking.

I mostly agree with you except for one thing. Mahomes has been highly effective in situations where the play is breaking down. I'm not suggesting that it's not a problem, but defenses often make big mistakes when Mahomes moves out of the pocket.

Gary Cooper 11-22-2024 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedinTexas (Post 17818194)
I mostly agree with you except for one thing. Mahomes has been highly effective in situations where the play is breaking down. I'm not suggesting that it's not a problem, but defenses often make big mistakes when Mahomes moves out of the pocket.

Yeah, that's what I was saying above. You take the good with the bad. He makes more good plays than bad when trying to do something special.

We probably have to wait until Mahomes is 35+ when he will stop trusting his escape ability and focus more on traditional QB mechanics.

DJ's left nut 11-22-2024 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedinTexas (Post 17818194)
I mostly agree with you except for one thing. Mahomes has been highly effective in situations where the play is breaking down. I'm not suggesting that it's not a problem, but defenses often make big mistakes when Mahomes moves out of the pocket.

Okay, but teams are now BANKING on that tendency from him. And doing a fantastic job of using it against him.

Goddamn Chargers found the "Blueprint" much more than Fangio ever did. This pressure/flow shit they found is a proooooooblem and of course other teams are now copying it against us.

And the only answer to it is for Mahomes to stand in there and fire. And of course, Smith's gonna have to suck a hell of a lot less to allow for that.

Right now opposing defense are creating chaos designed to give the appearance of a play breaking down when in reality it's mostly just bait designed to get him off his spot and play sped up. And he's taking that bait just about every time.

He's gotta stop. And if they start playing him honest again, he can get back to that. But right now they're using his instincts against him.

Woogieman 11-22-2024 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 17818192)
I think he's stretched thin. These guys are human.

Between off-the field obligations (sponsorships, celebrity status, team friggen ownership) and being a parent, guy has a LOT going on.

It's probably just a little harder to stay completely locked in during the season than it used to be.

Doesn't mean he can't dial it back in for the post-season, but if he gets into the habit of feeling phantom pressure, that's gonna be harder to break.

It's a fair question to ask if he still dedicates the same prep/film room time that he has previously. Does he need to? I would think that given the O performance going on aprox. 1.5 years now, I would say "absolutely". I guess this post-season will answer a lot of questions, like: "are they bored and not showing things:, and "can a team be so good, they can just turn it uo like the NBA?".

RunKC 11-22-2024 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sassy Squatch (Post 17818193)
When in the **** have I ever said the LT position is the only problem? There's plenty of other reasons why this offense and Mahomes aren't anywhere near where they should be.

Obviously, injuries are chief amongst them, but even taking that into account the on field personnel rotations are ****ing shitty right now. Guys like Watson and Steele shouldn't be taking nearly the amount of snaps they have been.

Mahomes deserves a pretty fair amount of criticism as well. Plenty of other QBs function just fine in this situation, and he's got enough support that he shouldn't be devolving into a complete pumpkin for large stretches at a time.

But again, these issues do largely correlate to bad OL play. Offense looked just fine against the Ravens. Get to the Bengals game, Suamataia absolutely shits himself, and Mahomes regressed to an absolutely horrible standard of play for literal weeks. Even before Rice got hurt, this offense looked ****ing horrible against the Bengals, Falcons, and Chargers, and Mahomes was out there making some of the worst throws of his career, which has unfortunately became a bit of a trend this season.

Looking back there were signs Kingsley wasn’t doing well. I think a lot of it was hidden bc they had so many quick passes to Rashee.

He was holding on for dear life

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Broadcast just showed “highlights” of rookie LT Kingsley Suamataia … I saw at least 3 holds there. <a href="https://t.co/VkQ86zU256">pic.twitter.com/VkQ86zU256</a></p>&mdash; Kyle (@ImKyleMangum) <a href="https://twitter.com/ImKyleMangum/status/1831899140785426732?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 6, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

DJ's left nut 11-22-2024 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woogieman (Post 17818199)
It's a fair question to ask if he still dedicates the same prep/film room time that he has previously. Does he need to? I would think that given the O performance going on aprox. 1.5 years now, I would say "absolutely". I guess this post-season will answer a lot of questions, like: "are they bored and not showing things:, and "can a team be so good, they can just turn it uo like the NBA?".

I don't think it's film study. I think he probably does all that as much as he ever has.

I think its reps. And not game reps, but technique reps. When pitchers are out there throwing between starts, it's not work on pitches, it's to make sure their arm slot is sound and they have the proper drive and follow through. Just keeping things honed.

I wonder if that's where some of this stuff is slipping. I just can't get over how strange his lower half looks on some of these throws. He's always been unorthodox there, but you could always find a method to his madness -- he does things other guys don't do because they CAN'T do those things and they clearly help him.

But he's doing things right now that just hurt him. And they're unforced.

And hell man, it may be none of that at all. It's all speculative as hell. It's just me thinking out loud.

Sassy Squatch 11-22-2024 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 17818183)
Did you watch how many times Wilson stood in last night and took a SHOT to get the ball downfield?

I'm ****ing done with "Mahomes doesn't trust the OL"

You're an NFL quarterback. You're gonna get hit. Put your big boy pants on and play the position.

Besides, as was noted in the article, his indecision is GETTING him blasted about half the time. Throw the damn ball on time and you can avoid a bunch of these shots you're taking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 17818192)
Doesn't mean he can't dial it back in for the post-season, but if he gets into the habit of feeling phantom pressure, that's gonna be harder to break.

I don't even get what the argument is about here. We can all acknowledge there's a problem here.

Mahomes is a lot less effective as a passer with bad OL play, right? Like, even relative to the rest of the QBs league he's unfortunately pretty susceptible to pressure at times, and that's been a constant throughout his entire career.

DJ's left nut 11-22-2024 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RunKC (Post 17818203)
Looking back there were signs Kingsley wasn’t doing well. I think a lot of it was hidden bc they had so many quick passes to Rashee.

He was holding on for dear life

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Broadcast just showed “highlights” of rookie LT Kingsley Suamataia … I saw at least 3 holds there. <a href="https://t.co/VkQ86zU256">pic.twitter.com/VkQ86zU256</a></p>&mdash; Kyle (@ImKyleMangum) <a href="https://twitter.com/ImKyleMangum/status/1831899140785426732?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 6, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Nah.

I mean he wasn't great. But "at least 3 holds" is just complete bullshit. I'd hold off on posting conclusions from Ravens fans.

Every fan in the world screams "HOLDING" when that arm gets up high but no, that's not a hold. We did it when Hali got himself in that position 5 times every game but it's not a hold. And on another one of those, as soon as his arms got outside his frame he gave a quick bar and then pulled them back.

I saw maybe one hold in there and it was a soft one. The rest was just...well what I think a lot of folks said at the time - rough, but acceptable for a first game.

The issue was that he went backwards and not forwards.

Wisconsin_Chief 11-22-2024 10:00 AM

A lot of people don't want to admit that the biggest problem this year has been Pat. I get it, he's untouchable, and there still is no QB on Earth I'd take over him, but yeah, he's been awful by his standards. Then again, he has been without his two starting WRs and starting RB all season. Kelce is not a #1 anymore (until the playoffs) and you've got a street free agent at RB along with an UDFA who isn't much of anything and a Broncos cast off as your 3rd down back. You have aging Hopkins trying to learn on the fly at WR, a Pats castoff in JuJu who could die at any moment, and a very raw rookie. I mean, I don't think there's a QB in the league who could look "good" with this cast. Pat is doing about as well as anyone should expect with this nonsense season.

Sigh, one of these years Pat is going to have all his WRs healthy and we're going to see the old 15 again. Come playoff time, though, I still fully expect him and Kelce to flip the God switch and do what we all know they're going to do. Until then, just keep winning anyway you possibly can.

Sassy Squatch 11-22-2024 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wisconsin_Chief (Post 17818218)
A lot of people don't want to admit that the biggest problem this year has been Pat. I get it, he's untouchable, and there still is no QB on Earth I'd take over him, but yeah, he's been awful by his standards. Then again, he has been without his two starting WRs and starting RB all season. Kelce is not a #1 anymore (until the playoffs) and you've got a street free agent at RB along with an UDFA who isn't much of anything and a Broncos cast off as your 3rd down back. You have aging Hopkins trying to learn on the fly at WR, a Pats castoff in JuJu who could die at any moment, and a very raw rookie. I mean, I don't think there's a QB in the league who could look "good" with this cast. Pat is doing about as well as anyone should expect with this nonsense season.

Sigh, one of these years Pat is going to have all his WRs healthy and we're going to see the old 15 again. Come playoff time, though, I still fully expect him and Kelce to flip the God switch and do what we all know they're going to do. Until then, just keep winning anyway you possibly can.

Sure, but the offensive staff needs to be better at mitigating these issues as well.

I think it was after the Raiders loss last season they came out and said the Chiefs were going to strip down the playbook quite a bit to help both the struggling receivers and Mahomes, and it worked, quite well.

Sassy Squatch 11-22-2024 10:10 AM

Justin Watson has taken more snaps than Deandre Hopkins every game this season. That's a bit silly. If we need to narrow the playbook for a bit so our best options can play more, let's do it.

RunKC 11-22-2024 10:22 AM

The Chiefs aren’t playing Hopkins a ton bc they want that 4th rd pick.

Quote:

"[The] Titans get a fifth-round pick that elevates to a fourth rounder if KC makes the Super Bowl and Hopkins plays 60% of the snaps,"
I know that sounds dumb but they care a lot about that kinda stuff.

Red Dawg 11-22-2024 10:23 AM

We haven’t lost a playoff game in 2 years. Until we do let's all stfu.

Sassy Squatch 11-22-2024 10:23 AM

That's ****ing idiotic and both Veach and Reid need a boot up the ass if that's actually why they won't play Hopkins more.

Wisconsin_Chief 11-22-2024 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sassy Squatch (Post 17818241)
That's ****ing idiotic and both Veach and Reid need a boot up the ass if that's actually why they won't play Hopkins more.

Yeah, I hate questioning these guys at this point, but if that's truly what it is they are really pushing their luck.

BWillie 11-22-2024 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 17818197)
Okay, but teams are now BANKING on that tendency from him. And doing a fantastic job of using it against him.

Goddamn Chargers found the "Blueprint" much more than Fangio ever did. This pressure/flow shit they found is a proooooooblem and of course other teams are now copying it against us.

And the only answer to it is for Mahomes to stand in there and fire. And of course, Smith's gonna have to suck a hell of a lot less to allow for that.

Right now opposing defense are creating chaos designed to give the appearance of a play breaking down when in reality it's mostly just bait designed to get him off his spot and play sped up. And he's taking that bait just about every time.

He's gotta stop. And if they start playing him honest again, he can get back to that. But right now they're using his instincts against him.

Fangio lol

I remember when the Eagles hired Fangio as a consultant for the SB and we put like 35 on those frauds

Sassy Squatch 11-22-2024 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wisconsin_Chief (Post 17818250)
Yeah, I hate questioning these guys at this point, but if that's truly what it is they are really pushing their luck.

I refuse to believe it. Mahomes is going through one of the toughest stretches of his career, and I can't imagine they'd be foolish enough to intentionally hamstring him and not put the best personnel rostered out on the field because they want to have a pick in the 130s instead of 160s.

-King- 11-22-2024 10:40 AM

I was going to post that worthy play earlier this week. That's a perfect cover 2 beater and it's why I hate the argument that cover 2 is this great unbeatable defense that especially neutralizes this offense. It doesn't, it's that Mahomes isn't taking the shots he needs to and used to.

Watch old highlights. Mahomes used to hit that play with Tyreek against that same defense regularly. If the safety is that deep, he would laser the ball in there and allow Tyreek to either make a move on the safety and get more yards, or catch the ball and quickly get out of bounds avoiding the hit.

The plays are there. Mahomes needs to go back to hitting them.

-King- 11-22-2024 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RunKC (Post 17818238)
The Chiefs aren’t playing Hopkins a ton bc they want that 4th rd pick.



I know that sounds dumb but they care a lot about that kinda stuff.

I don't buy that. There's plenty of games they could taper his snaps down without hurting the team. They could give him 0 snaps this week against the Panthers and still win. The bills game is not the game to play draft pick shenanigans in.

-King- 11-22-2024 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Dawg (Post 17818240)
We haven’t lost a playoff game in 2 years. Until we do let's all stfu.

I too hate when people talk about the chiefs on a Chiefs forum. Why even log in to Chiefs planet if you want to talk about the Chiefs!?

Gary Cooper 11-22-2024 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RunKC (Post 17818238)
The Chiefs aren’t playing Hopkins a ton bc they want that 4th rd pick.



I know that sounds dumb but they care a lot about that kinda stuff.

I figure they're managing Hopkins' snaps for the postseason. He's an older player.

PatMahomesIsGod 11-22-2024 10:47 AM

Trey’s just not a great pass blocking RG.

Better fit on a team like the Ravens.

O.city 11-22-2024 10:56 AM

The qb isn’t playing well and hasn’t for a while

It’s a problem

mr. tegu 11-22-2024 10:58 AM

Seth Keysor sees what we see...
 
I hate the “doesn’t trust the line excuse” with a passion. It’s a red herring for Mahomes not playing well at times.

Basically you are saying “sure the pocket was good that play, but two plays ago the line didn’t hold, so how can you expect Mahomes to be comfortable and make that obvious play this time?”

RunKC 11-22-2024 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 17818298)
The qb isn’t playing well and hasn’t for a while

It’s a problem

I really think last year ****ed him up as well as the constant changes and lack of consistency that has happened due to injuries and LT play.

He’ll work through it

KC_Connection 11-22-2024 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 17818183)
You're an NFL quarterback. You're gonna get hit. Put your big boy pants on and play the position.

Or he could just avoid try to avoid hits until the games actually matter for this team, not meaningless November regular season games.

I imagine Mahomes wants to break every record Brady ever set. The only way he's gonna do that is if he stays about as healthy as Brady did (and that's gonna require a great offensive line to limit the amount of hits he takes).

KC_Connection 11-22-2024 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 17818298)
The qb isn’t playing well and hasn’t for a while

It’s a problem

If you think Mahomes is playing poorly, you need to watch more QBs play in this league.

louie aguiar 11-22-2024 11:03 AM

Damn- I love Trey Smith but that was pretty bad. I doubt Veach gives him the bag this offseason.

mr. tegu 11-22-2024 11:05 AM

This article also puts to rest this narrative about holding back plays that fans are holding onto. They are running plays that get guys open at a fairly high rate. Mahomes is just missing them.

KC_Connection 11-22-2024 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr. tegu (Post 17818301)
I hate the “doesn’t trust the line excuse” with a passion. It’s a red herring for Mahomes not playing well at times.

Basically you are saying “sure the pocket was good that play, but two plays ago the line didn’t hold, so how can you expect Mahomes to be comfortable and make that obvious play this time?”

When Kingsley is allowing straight line blind side tackles at Mahomes' back, you don't think that's going to have consequences going forward for the rest of the game in how Mahomes plays the position?

New World Order 11-22-2024 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KC_Connection (Post 17818303)
Or he could just avoid try to avoid hits until the games actually matter for this team, not meaningless November regular season games.

I imagine Mahomes wants to break every record Brady ever set. The only way he's gonna do that is if he stays about as healthy as Brady did (and that's gonna require a great offensive line to limit the amount of hits he takes).

Mahomes gets hit too much, sometimes because of the way he plays to play as long as Brady did.

He’s going to have to be better than Brady by the time he hits 40

Buehler445 11-22-2024 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RunKC (Post 17818238)
The Chiefs aren’t playing Hopkins a ton bc they want that 4th rd pick.



I know that sounds dumb but they care a lot about that kinda stuff.

And.....

He's old.

mr. tegu 11-22-2024 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KC_Connection (Post 17818316)
When Kingsley is allowing straight line blind side tackles at Mahomes' back, you don't think that's going to have consequences going forward for the rest of the game in how Mahomes plays the position?


He’s played 23% of the snaps. When the line holds if the QB can’t make a play because four weeks ago the LT had some bad snaps then that’s a QB problem. We know this because the QB is missing open receivers from clean pockets at far too high of a rate right now.

jd1020 11-22-2024 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RunKC (Post 17818238)
The Chiefs aren’t playing Hopkins a ton bc they want that 4th rd pick.



I know that sounds dumb but they care a lot about that kinda stuff.

Am I reading something wrong here?

The sentence says the Chiefs have to make the SB and Hopkins plays 60% of the snaps. I'm assuming the snap count is referring to the actual SB and not the season.

Rainbarrel 11-22-2024 11:18 AM

Jackson needs to slap a bitch, dad needs to down a fifth and Britney needs to trigger social media

O.city 11-22-2024 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KC_Connection (Post 17818304)
If you think Mahomes is playing poorly, you need to watch more QBs play in this league.

Well sure. I’d think a guy some wanna call the greatest of all time might have a higher standard though

pugsnotdrugs19 11-22-2024 11:20 AM

Just painful to watch. I have all the faith in the world that he can lock in and flip the switch because he did it last year with a worse supporting cast. But damn it's frustrating to see Mahomes essentially play just like Alex Smith once did.

Stop playing to your defense. That isn't gonna cut it this year like it did last year. You do have legitimate weapons and help on the way. No one gives a **** if you throw some more interceptions - you already are doing that by playing conservative.

mr. tegu 11-22-2024 11:23 AM

Seth Keysor sees what we see...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pugsnotdrugs19 (Post 17818360)
Just painful to watch. I have all the faith in the world that he can lock in and flip the switch because he did it last year with a worse supporting cast. But damn it's frustrating to see Mahomes essentially play just like Alex Smith once did.

Stop playing to your defense. That isn't gonna cut it this year like it did last year. You do have legitimate weapons and help on the way. No one gives a **** if you throw some more interceptions - you already are doing that by playing conservative.


The switch he really flipped was cutting out the interceptions and not throwing to Moore or Toney last post season. It took a pretty Herculean effort from the defense to win it all last season. Of the last 8 Super Bowl winners we scored the fewest total points and fewest ppg. Even with having an extra game on many of those other winning teams. That’s not going to be repeatable this year.

htismaqe 11-22-2024 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KC_Connection (Post 17818316)
When Kingsley is allowing straight line blind side tackles at Mahomes' back, you don't think that's going to have consequences going forward for the rest of the game in how Mahomes plays the position?

Kingsley has played like 1.5 games total. If Mahomes is THAT messed up because of it, Mahomes has a problem.

dirk digler 11-22-2024 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 17818192)
I think he's stretched thin. These guys are human.

Between off-the field obligations (sponsorships, celebrity status, team friggen ownership) and being a parent, guy has a LOT going on.

It's probably just a little harder to stay completely locked in during the season than it used to be.

Doesn't mean he can't dial it back in for the post-season, but if he gets into the habit of feeling phantom pressure, that's gonna be harder to break.

I have started wondering about this as well lately. Wondering if he is putting in the time on his craft to improve. I am really hoping one of these offseasons he will dedicate himself to improve his deep passing because honestly it is the weakest part of his game.

dirk digler 11-22-2024 11:39 AM

oh I just saw this Sam McDowell article today about this.

https://www.kansascity.com/sports/sp...295916224.html

Quote:

This is going to seem like nitpicking.

It’s not.

The Chiefs are 9-1 after a loss in Buffalo on Sunday, and thus still occupy the top spot in the AFC heading into the final third of the season. It’s fine. It’s better than fine, actually, and it’s certainly better than this time a year ago. That’s why this might seem hypercritical.

But there’s an issue that keeps popping up during the Chiefs’ games — significant enough that those nine wins could’ve come a bit easier, and significant enough that the one loss might have never happened.

The Kansas City Chiefs still cannot hit the deep shot.

Patrick Mahomes cannot hit the deep shot.

The organization spent an entire offseason — the draft, free agency, scheme evaluation and summer and training camp practices, all of it — trying to improve their downfield passing game. Here are the effects of that concentration in its most succinct and recent form:

Whiff.

Whiff.

Whiff.

A year ago, the Chiefs threw fewer downfield shots than any other season since Patrick Mahomes arrived, per data on PFF. Naturally, they completed fewer of them, too. And yet for all of the conversation to change that last offseason, they are throwing the ball 20-plus yards beyond the line of scrimmage half as frequently as they did last year. Only 6.4% of Mahomes’ pass attempts are deep, by far the lowest percentage in the league.

There’s too much risk-aversion from all involved— that whole gunslinger thing doesn’t reflect reality. We saw offensive coordinator Matt Nagy on the sideline praising Mahomes for taking a shot in Los Angeles, even when it didn’t appear open. That was two months ago.

Where did it go?

Actually, for the last five weeks, it’s been right there, and the Chiefs are just flat-out whiffing on the opportunities.

In sequential order:

• In Week 7 in San Francisco, the Chiefs opened the second half with a deep shot to Worthy. Mahomes had a perfect pocket to step and throw, and he overshot Worthy, who had so much room that 49ers safety Malik Mustapha turned and looked at his teammates with the same question you might have had at home. How did he get so open?

• In Week 9 against Tampa Bay, Worthy adjusted his route after noticing space in the secondary, and Mahomes found him open along the sideline. Worthy, though, inexplicably caught the ball in his gut and trotted backwards out of bounds before securing it, costing him an easy score.

• A week later against Denver, Worthy properly adjusted his fly pattern to give himself more space in the field of play, and he had two steps on the last line of defense, but the Mahomes throw sailed out of bounds for yet another incompletion.

• On Sunday in Buffalo, Mahomes had Worthy on a deep pass down the seam. Mahomes had to sidestep some pressure and whipped the throw too far to his left, which sent Worthy toward the sideline. Worthy couldn’t drag his back foot for the completion. Which, by the way, it’s been a minute since we’ve seen a wide receiver have such an estranged relationship with the sideline. Still, let’s not sugarcoat it: That’s a touchdown with the right throw.

It’s easier to blame the rookie than a Hall of Fame quarterback, but three of those four misses fall squarely on Mahomes. Most NFL quarterbacks complete all of those throws, yet somehow the league’s best cannot complete hardly any of them, mired in some sort of long-throw slump.

The alarming part is that he missed in just about every way possible — pushing one throw too far right, yanking another too far left, and somehow finding a way to overthrow the man who recorded the fastest 40-yard dash in NFL Combine history.

“I feel like if I hit those shots, the offense looks completely different,” Mahomes said four days before missing Worthy in Buffalo.

Well, let’s look at exactly how different.

Those four plays — those four must-be-completed throws — came on drives in which the Chiefs didn’t end up scoring. In fact, they would total less than 10 yards combined after the misses.

So what would it look like if they had hit those shots instead?

Instead of being ranked 16th in yards, the Chiefs’ offense would be one yard per game shy of seventh — two spots higher than they were a year ago. Instead of ranking 11th in points per game, they would be sixth.

It is the literal difference between progression and regression.

For the team.

And the player.

Mahomes’ passer rating would jump from 90.2 to 100.1 with those four completions alone. He’d move to the top-five in the league in both yards and touchdowns.

It’s the difference in talking about a quarterback in the thick of the NFL’s Most Valuable Player race and wondering what’s going on with the Chiefs’ offense.

This is what’s going on with the Chiefs’ offense. Everything else is distracting from the central point. A few weeks ago, we outlined how the Chiefs have become better at figuring out a path to the end zone when the chunk plays aren’t there — how they’ve sustained extraordinarily long drives.

But now the chunk plays are there on occasion, and maybe even a more frequent occasion lately. Teams have adjusted to the Chiefs running the ball well. (KC is third in the NFL in rushing success rate.) The defenses have focused on Travis Kelce and DeAndre Hopkins underneath.

The back end of opposing defenses are showing some vulnerability, and yet the Chiefs cannot connect the world’s best quarterback and one of the NFL’s fastest wide receivers on the deep pass — even when it’s right there for them.

It’s maddening. It’s curious. It’s, well, tiring.

The Chiefs cannot afford to have this conversation every week, or we probably won’t feel the need to have it in February.

Sure, Mahomes had pressure in his face on one incompletion; he probably saw Worthy too late. Sure, there’s an inexperienced wide receiver on the other end. But these are wide-open throws, in NFL terms, and you don’t get many of those.

“We can practice it all we want, but until we start doing it in the game, there’s nothing more I can really say about it,” Mahomes said, and, yes, the frustration was as evident as that reads.

pugsnotdrugs19 11-22-2024 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr. tegu (Post 17818367)
The switch he really flipped was cutting out the interceptions and not throwing to Moore or Toney last post season. It took a pretty Herculean effort from the defense to win it all last season. Of the last 8 Super Bowl winners we scored the fewest total points and fewest ppg. Even with having an extra game on many of those other winning teams. That’s not going to be repeatable this year.

I like this current defense just fine, I even like Nazeeh Johnson more than I would say the vast majority of folks - this defense is NOT what it was last year. They had lightning in a bottle a bit there with how healthy they were and seemingly having almost every player in or entering their prime.

htismaqe 11-22-2024 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pugsnotdrugs19 (Post 17818433)
I like this current defense just fine, I even like Nazeeh Johnson more than I would say the vast majority of folks - this defense is NOT what it was last year. They had lightning in a bottle a bit there with how healthy they were and seemingly having almost every player in or entering their prime.

What's frustrating is that the run defense this year looks a lot better than last year. They just can't make anything happen on third down. No pressure, coverage holes, you name it.

KC_Connection 11-22-2024 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 17818359)
Well sure. I’d think a guy some wanna call the greatest of all time might have a higher standard though

I'd rather he bring his MVP level out for the playoffs myself, like he does every single time.

Can't say I give a shit whether Lamar Jackson is playing better than him in November.

KC_Connection 11-22-2024 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 17818374)
Kingsley has played like 1.5 games total. If Mahomes is THAT messed up because of it, Mahomes has a problem.

That was just one example in the Denver game, but Wanya is not good for his position either and that has clearly had an effect as well.

Personally, I'd rather Mahomes lean on the side of caution than have him standing in and taking huge hits in regular season games. Our season is definitively done if he gets seriously hurt. His health is the most important thing in any given regular season game we play for that reason.

We can win a SB with Mahomes with a 9-8 record. We can't win a SB without Mahomes and a 16-1 record.

KC_Connection 11-22-2024 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr. tegu (Post 17818367)
The switch he really flipped was cutting out the interceptions and not throwing to Moore or Toney last post season. It took a pretty Herculean effort from the defense to win it all last season. Of the last 8 Super Bowl winners we scored the fewest total points and fewest ppg. Even with having an extra game on many of those other winning teams. That’s not going to be repeatable this year.

Nonsense. The guy had QBRs of 88.8, 91.5, 91.3, and 76.4 in four playoff games last season against maybe the toughest competition anybody has ever faced in a postseason run. You can easily make the argument it was the best he'd ever played in a 4 game stretch.

That didn't simply happen because of "cutting out the interceptions" or not throwing to Skyy Moore. He elevated his level of play significantly, which he has shown the ability to do consistently in the playoffs in his career.

RunKC 11-22-2024 12:13 PM

I think Mahomes himself would tell you he’s not playing to his standard. I think that will change when the postseason starts and he gets locked in.

Everyone needs to read this part of the Star article again. The Chiefs are really really close to being elite on offense.

In a way the Hollywood injury is a good thing bc it has forced us and Worthy himself to build that chemistry with Patrick taking on a bigger role.

I think they fix this by January and Hollywood/Pacheco returning makes this Chiefs offense absolutely lethal.

Quote:

Those four plays — those four must-be-completed throws — came on drives in which the Chiefs didn’t end up scoring. In fact, they would total less than 10 yards combined after the misses.

So what would it look like if they had hit those shots instead?

Instead of being ranked 16th in yards, the Chiefs’ offense would be one yard per game shy of seventh — two spots higher than they were a year ago. Instead of ranking 11th in points per game, they would be sixth.

It is the literal difference between progression and regression.

For the team.

And the player.

Mahomes’ passer rating would jump from 90.2 to 100.1 with those four completions alone. He’d move to the top-five in the league in both yards and touchdowns.

BWillie 11-22-2024 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rainbarrel (Post 17818353)
Jackson needs to slap a bitch, dad needs to down a fifth and Britney needs to trigger social media

The mom needs to sit on it

Buehler445 11-22-2024 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 17818183)
Did you watch how many times Wilson stood in last night and took a SHOT to get the ball downfield?

I'm ****ing done with "Mahomes doesn't trust the OL"

You're an NFL quarterback. You're gonna get hit. Put your big boy pants on and play the position.

Besides, as was noted in the article, his indecision is GETTING him blasted about half the time. Throw the damn ball on time and you can avoid a bunch of these shots you're taking.

I agree in principle.

However, I don't want Mahomes taking the absolute destruction Wilson took last night. Holy ****. Maybe it's because he's so little, but **** I thought he was dead on a couple of those. AFCN and all that, but ****.

I don't want any too much of that.

mr. tegu 11-22-2024 12:31 PM

Seth Keysor sees what we see...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KC_Connection (Post 17818461)
Nonsense. The guy had QBRs of 88.8, 91.5, 91.3, and 76.4 in four playoff games last season against maybe the toughest competition anybody has ever faced in a postseason run. You can easily make the argument it was the best he'd ever played in a 4 game stretch.

That didn't simply happen because of "cutting out the interceptions" or not throwing to Skyy Moore. He elevated his level of play significantly, which he has shown the ability to do consistently in the playoffs in his career.


We went a full game in a row worth without a TD and just three points between the AFC championship and Super Bowl. We didn’t break that drought until a punt hit a punt return blocker. Both of those games looked very similar to the entire season (outside of the already mentioned turnovers) with the offense getting bogged down and just hoping the defense kept them in it which they did of course.

We will have one, if not two games this post season that will in all likelihood be just like the Bills game where the defense isn’t getting off the field as quickly and frequently. Last year’s performance from the offense will not win this year.

Also, last season is really the only playoff run he has had to actually elevate beyond his regular season performance since it’s the first one he played so poorly (by his standards) for a whole season in.

KC_Connection 11-22-2024 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr. tegu (Post 17818487)
We went a full game in a row worth without a TD and just three points between the AFC championship and Super Bowl. We didn’t break that drought until a punt hit a punt return blocker. Both of those games looked very similar to the entire season (outside of the already mentioned turnovers) with the offense getting bogged down and just hoping the defense kept them in it which they did of course.

He played 3 excellent games in a row followed by one very good one in the SB against the toughest competition any QB had ever faced in a playoff run. Are Chiefs fans really trying to trash this guy’s performance in the playoffs now?

Quote:

Also, last season is really the only playoff run he has had to actually elevate beyond his regular season performance since it’s the first one he played so poorly (by his standards) for a whole season in.
You may want to go look up his 2021 regular season and where that ranks as far as QBR goes in his career. This has become a standard thing for him this decade.

KC_Connection 11-22-2024 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buehler445 (Post 17818483)
I agree in principle.

However, I don't want Mahomes taking the absolute destruction Wilson took last night. Holy ****. Maybe it's because he's so little, but **** I thought he was dead on a couple of those. AFCN and all that, but ****.

I don't want any too much of that.

These games aren’t worth Patrick taking hits like Russ did last night and Patrick, on some level, must know that.

pugsnotdrugs19 11-22-2024 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KC_Connection (Post 17818503)
These games aren’t worth Patrick taking hits like Russ did last night and Patrick, on some level, must know that.

He does. He told Simms in his pre-week 1 sit down interview that he tries not to run anymore unless its playoffs or do or die spots.

But then he still hate tackles after a pick in that Chargers game which coulda easily hurt himself, instead hurt his WR1. So.

dlphg9 11-22-2024 12:51 PM

It doesn't matter how many sources we provide people they're still going to shift blame to Wanya Morris. You can show them every single play that there was pressure and explain where that pressure is coming from, but they either don't watch or are too proud to admit they were wrong.

mr. tegu 11-22-2024 12:54 PM

Seth Keysor sees what we see...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KC_Connection (Post 17818500)
He played 3 excellent games in a row followed by one very good one in the SB against the toughest competition any QB had ever faced in a playoff run. Are Chiefs fans really trying to trash this guy’s performance in the playoffs now?


You may want to go look up his 2021 regular season and where that ranks as far as QBR goes in his career. This has become a standard thing for him this decade.


No, I’m simply pointing out that yes, he elevated his game, but even with that we needed the defense to do the heavy lifting keeping us in both of those games, allowing him to wok his magic.

As for 2021, he had some bad games here and there throughout the season but he also had a lot of really good games. We averaged 35.4 ppg the last five games of that season. He also had a good QBR in those games. That production continued in the first two games but none of those last 5 regular season games remotely approached how bad he was in the AFC championship. Basically in 2021 the post season reflected the regular season exactly. Some really great games with a clunker.

Hoover 11-22-2024 12:55 PM

All that said, I think the issue is that Patrick doesn’t trust his LT, refuses to step up in the pocket, and three feels pressure to throw the deep ball.

Personally I think we run a little too much on 2nd down.

Megatron96 11-22-2024 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 17818197)
Okay, but teams are now BANKING on that tendency from him. And doing a fantastic job of using it against him.

Goddamn Chargers found the "Blueprint" much more than Fangio ever did. This pressure/flow shit they found is a proooooooblem and of course other teams are now copying it against us.

And the only answer to it is for Mahomes to stand in there and fire. And of course, Smith's gonna have to suck a hell of a lot less to allow for that.

Right now opposing defense are creating chaos designed to give the appearance of a play breaking down when in reality it's mostly just bait designed to get him off his spot and play sped up. And he's taking that bait just about every time.

He's gotta stop. And if they start playing him honest again, he can get back to that. But right now they're using his instincts against him.


Great analysis.


During the game I remember thinking at some point, “BUF seems to be doing to Pat what we’ve been doing to Lamar.” Not sure I actually posted the thought, but I remember thinking it.

The rest, the bad mechanics, sped up clock, poor pocket navigation, etc. I don’t know. Maybe the sprained ankle has been more of an issue mentally than anyone knows? But that just doesn’t seem to explain the unwillingness to pull the trigger on some pretty basic throws, like that one for Worthy running straight up the sideline.

Still will always believe that Pat will somehow fix his shit at some point, but it feels like a lot of shit this time. Hope I’m wrong.

ThaVirus 11-22-2024 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pugsnotdrugs19 (Post 17818360)
No one gives a **** if you throw some more interceptions - you already are doing that by playing conservative.

For sure. Time for him to let his nuts hang.

ThaVirus 11-22-2024 01:08 PM

When was Mahomes’ last 5 TD game? Been a while.

Week 1 of 2022 against Arizona is the last one I remember for sure.

T-post Tom 11-22-2024 01:25 PM

Reid/Mahomes are the best coach/QB duo in the NFL. Maybe of all time. So I’m not too worried. That said, perhaps PMII has the yips & just needs a fresh voice in his corner. He’s had the same people coaching him for some time. Maybe some quick input from a temporary quarterback consultant might add a new perspective. Whether it’s decision-making, fundamentals or just a slight change in mindset: there’s no shame in trying to improve the process. (Which totally contradicts the fact that I feel like posting this is akin to cheating on your spouse.) :)

GordonGekko 11-22-2024 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RunKC (Post 17818463)
I think Mahomes himself would tell you he’s not playing to his standard.

Mahomes has been saying this the last two years in postgame interviews, he is even tweeting that he is missing open wide receivers. Heck, my GF is saying that he holds the ball way too long and should get rid of it, and she doesn't know much of football except for Tay Tay and Travis.

I still think the LT is a much larger issue, even with a mediocre Mahomes we can still win the Superbowl, but yeah a sub par LT and some team is going to "Buccaneer" us again in the playoffs.

KC_Connection 11-22-2024 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pugsnotdrugs19 (Post 17818510)
He does. He told Simms in his pre-week 1 sit down interview that he tries not to run anymore unless its playoffs or do or die spots.

But then he still hate tackles after a pick in that Chargers game which coulda easily hurt himself, instead hurt his WR1. So.

His frustration got the better of him after throwing a pick but he generally plays these games not going full out in them/avoiding major contact.

Regular season has effectively been practice for the playoffs for this franchise for this decade now and that has been especially reflected the last two seasons.

notorious 11-22-2024 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiTown (Post 17818181)
It's been obvious to anyone paying attention that PMII isn't on his game. The question is why? What's changed? Some of those answers are obvious (trust in receivers and lack of OL protection/trust in OL protection), but the other factors aren't that obvious. Maybe it's just a combo of those two items that are creating a lot of head trash for Pat and making him into a more average NFL QB. I don't know...

We are seeing a shadow of what Pat would have looked like if he'd been drafted top 3 and went to a bottom-feeder team.

Okchief80 11-22-2024 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wisconsin_Chief (Post 17818218)
A lot of people don't want to admit that the biggest problem this year has been Pat. I get it, he's untouchable, and there still is no QB on Earth I'd take over him, but yeah, he's been awful by his standards. Then again, he has been without his two starting WRs and starting RB all season. Kelce is not a #1 anymore (until the playoffs) and you've got a street free agent at RB along with an UDFA who isn't much of anything and a Broncos cast off as your 3rd down back. You have aging Hopkins trying to learn on the fly at WR, a Pats castoff in JuJu who could die at any moment, and a very raw rookie. I mean, I don't think there's a QB in the league who could look "good" with this cast. Pat is doing about as well as anyone should expect with this nonsense season.

Sigh, one of these years Pat is going to have all his WRs healthy and we're going to see the old 15 again. Come playoff time, though, I still fully expect him and Kelce to flip the God switch and do what we all know they're going to do. Until then, just keep winning anyway you possibly can.

It has been obvious that pat has not been himself a large part of the season. Chiefs media is finally getting the balls to call him out. He has been at half mast most of the year.

ChiTown 11-22-2024 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megatron96 (Post 17818528)
Still will always believe that Pat will somehow fix his shit at some point, but it feels like a lot of shit this time. Hope I’m wrong.

I don't actually think it's a lot of different things he has to fix. I think the majority of it is between his ears. I think it's primarily a trust issue. He's not trusting his teammates, and he sure as hell isn't trusting what made him so great - his instincts to stand in the pocket and make the play. That's all JMHO.

-King- 11-22-2024 01:46 PM

At some point some people decided "he's not even trying that hard" was an acceptable defense of an NFL player.


Blows my mind.


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