Drafting a nose = bad idea this year.
 

Nose tackle prospects in the draft:

Dontari Poe, Memphis -- raw, from small school, inconsistent motor.
Alameda Ta'amu, Washington -- looks great one moment, notsogreat the next, more of a 1 gap
Josh Chapman, Alabama -- a little undersized, coming off ACL injury
Nick Jean-Baptiste, Baylor -- poor man's Phil Taylor
Henry Fangupo, BYU -- old rookie, completely raw from a goofy system, will needs a couple years

Everybody else is from a small school, or is a nobody getting attention for their size alone and is raw as red meat.

Now, check this out:

Nose tackle prospects in free agency:

Paul Soliai, Dolphins -- massive 2-gap hole-clogger, no longer fits Dolphins defense
Sione Pouha, Jets -- experienced 2-gapper, talented but past prime, could put in a solid season
Sammy Lee Hill, Lions -- huge, could be a decent value acquisition, not sure how he'd fit in a 2-gap
Antonio Garay, Chargers -- more of a 1-gapper
Kelly Gregg, Chiefs -- just sayin'
Shaun Rogers, Saints -- good one-year rental for the position
Aubrayu Franklin, Saints -- more of a 1-gapper
Casey Hampton, Steelers -- outside chance he lands on the market
Amon Gordon, Chiefs -- knows our system, Crennel likes him
Bryant McKinnie, Ravens -- could fill the role
Howard Green, Packers -- more of a 1-gapper but he did crack Cassel's ribs in the preseason, soooo...

My conclusion is that the draft is very shallow at the nose position.

It's not much better in free agency, but at least you've got guys that can play there.

I agree the NT class in this years draft is not impressive.

I really think we need to take a serious charge at Soliai. If we don't get him, get a stop-gap like Gregg, Franklin, etc. Maybe draft another late project and hope between him and Powe we aren't looking at the same need next year.


Gordon is a situational guy in my mind.

Go all out for Soliai, otherwise youre going to have to draft one. Just like QB, you need to take the plunge sooner or later..

I agree Soliai seems to be the best option. Gordon would seem like a good bet to be resigned for a couple of years. Maybe take a flyer on Chapman if he falls to the 4th round or later due to his injury.

I'd love for us to bring in Howard Green. The Packers play him at DE mostly because they were dry at the position this year. That's insane. The dude weighs 340.

One problem. He's 33. I don't want another Gregg.

Easier to said than done but I wouldn't mind trading down in the first and taking Poe.

To finally be done talking about NT would be nice for once. Seems like it's been an issue for years.

Sammie Lee Hill.

The Lions are DEEP on the defensive line. Trade a 3rd-4th round pick for this kid.

I was just coming in to say this. You've been clamoring for Hill for 2 years now.

Just sign Soliai. Best NT available for our D.

Likely going to be too expensive for this team after resigning Bowe and Carr with TJax getting a sizeable bonus from incentives for 2012.

Dude played something like the last 8 games of the season with the torn up knee! Pretty impressive IMO!

Yeah....now I wish the front office would ****ing listen.

Here's his scouting report.

You can nitpick any rookie. Almost anyone over 320 is not going to have a high motor, so that's a non-starter. This team has needed an NT since Pioli got here. I'd rather have a young one we can work with and have here for 8 years. If we were to get Poe or Ta'amu I would be thrilled. Ta-amu may be one gap now, but that doesn't mean he can't be coached up. You can't teach 330. Guy has the body for the position. I'd also be happy with Chapman in the 3rd. Dude has the right attitude and comes from a great system.

He probably will cost alot, but one could say NT is the last piece the defense needs.


Wonder what teams will be in the bidding for him?

I figure us, the Texans, Steelers, and the Redskins.

I heard the skins are switching to 4-3

Defensive tackles is one of those positions where "high motor" just doesn't often exist.

We've discussed here for the better part of 10 years - there's a reason top-end defensive tackles often bust and there's a reason that guys VERY rarely ever play better for another team other than they did for the one that drafted them.

These are guys with an unheard-of combination of athleticism and sheer size. They've really never had to work at anything in their football lives and that light doesn't just "come on" when they get to the NFL.

I think Poe is a good late first round prospect, but I just don't see him as a 3-4 NT. No way. He's a quick, gap penetrating lineman.

Here is a clip of Memphis v. Tennessee. It's not a Poe highlight, but you can see him (#74) standing out to a degree on the Memphis line. He's chasing down RBs from behind and penetrating, etc.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Oak0_xfCbCU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Interesting to see how fast he is.

He doesn't really look 350 there...

If he's going to able to demand a double team, he can be a 3-4 nt.

I still contend, if we don't trade up for a QB, that getting Poe is the way to go. He's athletic, as Hell for a big man. He commands a double-team and he still collapses the pocket. We need a NT and this dude can play football.

LMAOLMAOLMAOLMAO

IMO Poe isn't suited to be a NT in a 34. He's not an anchor in the middle.

**** you, Direckshun.

FANGUPO!

I know he will cost some money, but does Soliai really fit our system?

I remember that being a reason last year why we didn't target Franklin.

Soliai is a 2-gapper; he fits our system better than Franklin.

Then again, I was never convinced that Franklin wouldn't be decent 2-gapper. Unfortunately he cost money and effort, something that we were evidently unwilling to put out there last off-season.

Then we should probably look past Soliai?


Isn't he alot younger than Franklin was?

Come on, bud. He's 6'5", 350 lbs. He's obviously a prime candidate for NT. He also commands constant double-teams and is strong as an ox. He's not your average tackle, because he's actually fast for his size and a work-out warrior to boot. Sounds like a NT to me, who can actually flush the pocket.


Why don't you think he's a NT?

I think he's a little too tall.

Yup.

Looks like he'd make a great 5-tech or maybe even a nice disruptive under-tackle, but as a 2-gap, people will be able to get under his pads a little easier. He'll have a pretty tough time keeping leverage as a 2-gap, IMO.

I don't think he's going to come in at 350. Even if he does, he's a very different 340-350 than Ted Washington or MT. Cody. He's very light on his feet. He doesn't command double teams in the run game. Memphis moved him around the line and used his speed and athleticism. IMO, he has much more potential in a 34 as a DE than DT.

Some scouting reports that aren't based on hearsay:

nfldraftmonsters.comRun Defense: Poe is a pretty strong run defender, but he doesn’t project to the nose tackle position as well as I expected him to. As I mentioned earlier, he has an impressive get-off for his size which allows him to penetrate into the backfield and disrupt running plays on occasion. However, he gets pushed around much easier than you would expect him to given his great combination of size and weight room strength. Theoretically he should be incredibly difficult to move off of the line of scrimmage, even in the face of double teams, but too many times I saw him get pushed off of the line of scrimmage by just one offensive lineman. That surprised and disappointed me, and made me doubt his potential to be a 3-4 NT at all in the NFL. He struggles with leverage on a pretty regular basis because of his height and that contributes to him getting pushed off the line of scrimmage.

bleacherreport.com
I have talked to an NFL scout who sees Poe a lot more like a Haloti Ngata (don't freak out, I meant style, not skill) in that he would actually act more like a defensive end in a 3-4 scheme.

sidelinescouting.com
Lacks the anchor and balance of an elite 3-4 nose tackle prospect and disappeared for stretches at a time playing at Memphis; moving him off the line of scrimmage is easier than expected... Doesn't always maintain gap responsibilities, blockers can easily seal him out of the play... Lacks ideal awareness of the ball carrier, he often ends up out of position to prevent backs from crossing the line of scrimmage... Staying low is difficult, comes out of his stance too high and can be driven off the ball

Read more: http://sidelinescouting.com/rankings...#ixzz1m6m2NNBc

scoutsnotebook.com
The downside is that he’s a big guy who doesn’t always play like it. He’s single-blocked way too often for a guy with his size/power. Poe should be tossing blockers around like rag dolls. He’s more interested in using his quickness and agility to beat blockers. Poe needs a tough DL coach to ride him until he starts playing up to his size. Poe played both NT and under tackle at Memphis. He has a good motor. He’ll chase plays. He runs well for a guy his size. I wonder if a 3-4 team will try him at DE. Poe might be more natural at that spot.

So he can play NT and DE for us. That could prove to be an awsome thing.

Thats really not a half bad idea phil. If he can play both spots some that is.

If Poe can play the run at DE and get an inside rush on passing downs, that's something we don't have now. He can crumble the pocket from inside.

Agree about that.

Colts are switching to 3-4 this off season also.

I think the Chiefs, Texans, Steelers will be in the running for Soliai.


I could see him going to pitt but they really look for a 1 tech.

I don't think the Steelers will be in the mix for Solai.

They are the kind of team that would draft Poe, rather than go after a free agent.

They develop in house.

Just thinking since Hampton went down they might look for quick help.

The Colts are going to have enough cap problems even with cutting Manning this year. They are a rebuilding team. You don't sign top money FAs when rebuilding.

I think they're going to cut him, and draft a new one. Whoever they take will be solid gold. That's just what that organization does.

Steelers are two-gap. They will therefore need a two-gapping 0 tech.

Which Soliai is.

This is out of a Courtney Upshaw interview over at NFLDraftCountdown...

http://www.draftcountdown.com/interv...ney-Upshaw.php


I still think this guy... Chapman... would be a pretty good fit for us with one of our day two picks (2nd or 3rd round).

The guy was a 3rd before having surgery on his ACL. He supposedly played a bunch of games with the torn ACL, but anything higher than a 4th on him and I'll pass. The only thing hes going to be able to do at the combine is the bench.

I don't really see him fitting the two gap system, but he could I guess. What do I know.

Steelers are over the cap and will lose their own FA, Texans probably won't even have the cap to resign several key FA including Mario Williams.

Chiefs on the other hand have the most room than any team in the NFL $63 million


Steelers GM Colbert sees 'serious' salary-cap problems
NFL.com Wire Reports
Published: Feb. 13, 2012 at 03:03 p.m.
Updated: Feb. 14, 2012 at 11:20 p.m


The Pittsburgh Steelers have many big roster decisions to make, but they won't happen soon.

Steelers general manager Kevin Colbert said Monday that the team probably won't make any moves until free agency begins March 13, according to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, allowing all eligible players to hit the open market. Colbert said the team has "serious issues" with the salary cap.

As of Feb. 6, the Steelers were $22.5 million over the cap, according to NFL.com research. The team has restructured several contracts since then.

"What our team will be at training camp? I don't know what it will be," Colbert said.

Colbert also said the team hasn't yet made a decision about veteran wide receiver Hines Ward, who has two years and $8 million remaining on his contract, although there have been "internal discussions."

Ward, 35, has publicly said he wants to play out the rest of his career in Pittsburgh despite his diminished role behind Mike Wallace, Antonio Brown and Emmanuel Sanders. NFL Network insider Jason La Canfora cited sources in reporting last week that the Steelers are likely to cut Ward, who became the eighth player in NFL history to reach 1,000 career receptions.

The Steelers' priority is keeping Wallace, who was just named to his first Pro Bowl after posting 71 receptions for 1,182 yards and eight touchdowns. Pittsburgh could use the franchise tag on Wallace, but Colbert said the team wants to lock up the receiver to a long-term contract.

One of the players who will return, eventually, is running back Rashard Mendenhall. Colbert said Monday that Mendenhall likely will begin next season on the physically unable to perform list after tearing the anterior cruciate ligament in his right knee during the regular-season finale against the Cleveland Browns.

Even while expecting to be without Mendenhall, who had 228 carries for 928 yards and nine touchdowns last season, Colbert doesn't consider finding help at running back an offseason priority for the Steelers. He said Isaac Redman has "established himself as an NFL running back," according to the Post-Gazette, and mentioned rookies John Clay and Baron Batch and second-year pro Jonathan Dwyer as possibilities at the position.

The Associated Press contributed to this report
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d...rycap-problems

:spock: I really don't understand this.


We have more cap than any team in the NFL. $63 million. The salary cap is over $120 million.


We could actually double all the FA's the Eagles signed last year and still have plenty of room.


Plenty of (cap) room to improve

Originally Published: February 13, 2012

The numbers are in.

One of the new parts of the NFL collective bargaining agreement is the ability of teams to roll over remaining cap room into the next season. The 2011 season finished with $320 million of remaining cap room. Thirty teams carried over $301.78 million of unused cap money to give the 32 teams approximately $711 million of combined room as they start to prepare for the 2012 season.

The 2011 salary cap was $120.375 million, and the 2012 ceiling is expected to be close. The exact number is calculated based on revenues and should be available in the next week or two.

The Houston Texans and San Diego Chargers didn't have enough remaining room to push money over into 2012, so Houston has $3.3 million of cap space and San Diego has $9.2 million.

The Jacksonville Jaguars didn't spend $31 million of cap room in 2011, so they now have $45 million of room. The Kansas City Chiefs have $62.995 million after budgeting $24.014 million from the 2011 season. The Tampa Bay Buccaneers, thanks to $23.519 million of carryover cap money, have the second-most cap space with $60.496 million. The Cincinnati Bengals moved over $15 million from last year and have $60 million to spend. Dan Snyder of the Washington Redskins has plenty of room to get quarterback and receiver help, thanks to $47.56 million of cap space. The 2011 playoff teams in good shape are the Denver Broncos ($50.735 million of cap room), San Francisco 49ers ($39.33 million), Atlanta Falcons ($30.6 million) and New England Patriots ($20 million). To get to the $50 million mark, the Broncos carried over $26 million of unused cap.

Four teams still have to get under the salary cap by March 13. They are the Pittsburgh Steelers, who have redone three contracts to be $11.7 million over, the Oakland Raiders ($11 million over), the Carolina Panthers ($9.6 million over) and the New York Giants ($7.3 million over).

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/75...p-room-improve

I think we actually have a pretty good chance to sign Soliai.


Shefter said it's about a 50 50 chance that Mike Wallace and Adrian Foster hit free agency.

That number is an illusion.

We are $30M or so under the true cap. We brought over $20M from last season that we can use, but from my understanding, that money is a one year deal. So if we add a bunch of people to contracts and exceed the true cap we'll have the cut them the next year.

I'd say at best we are looking at re-signing both of our FA's and maybe adding 1 more. And, imo, it feels like they are going to go after a QB. There are a few top ranked NT's that the Chiefs will be able to go after in the draft.

I'd say that true cap # is about $13-15 million low since we haven't re-signed some of our FA guys.

Not sure what you are trying to say. The true cap doesn't revolve around the Chiefs.

Use the extra 20 as guaranteed year 1 salaries. They get their money up front and not as big of a cap hit in the future, so you don't have to cut anyone.

Thats all well and good but Soliai is still going to get a sizeable contract so you are probably only talking about saving $4M or so a year IF you gave him every penny of that $20M in year 1.

Vince Wilfork got 5/40M. 8M average.

Pay him half in year one you are left with 4/20. 5M average.

You are only saving a whopping 3M a year.

When you start to break shit down its pretty sad what that number actually boils down to.

No not really. The new CBA lets teams roll over money each year. Experts have said the Chiefs could resign their FA's, sign Peyton to a front loaded contract giving him the money he was use to making and still have plenty of money to sign other key FA's.

Not sure if you follow the Eagles or not, but they went crazy in FA last year with about $20 million of cap space, the Chiefs have around $60 million.

Here is the clause from the CBA that allows teams to carry over salary-cap dollars from one league year to the next:


"A Club may 'carry over' Room from one League Year to the following League Year by submitting notice in writing signed by the owner to the NFL no later than fourteen (14) days prior to the start of the new League Year indicating the maximum amount of Room that the Club wishes to carry over. The NFL shall promptly provide a copy of any such notice to the NFLPA. The amount of Room carried over will be adjusted downward based on the final Room available after the year-end reconciliation."

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slu..._cap_from_2011



"If a team rolls over 20 million in 2012, and doesn't spend any of it, they can roll that 20 million into 2013 as well.


2012 $120M Cap

Let's say a team rolled over $30M from 2011, and had $90M committed to 2012 already. The team would have $60M in available Cap and have a "soft cap" or "adjusted cap" of $150M. This seems like a nice advantage for a Tampa Bay over the current cap situation in Pittsburgh.

2013 Assume $130M Cap (no one knows yet as it is calculated each year based on revenues).

89% of $130M is $115.7M. It would be wise for this "big cap room" team to spend $115.7M in 2013, so assuming the team has only $90M committed to 2012 and 2013- then they should look to shell out an additional $25.7M in 2012 and 2013.

The CBA ensures that all teams spend the riches of the NFL on the players.

Now, if they are under that 89% floor in 2013, they actually are not in violation until 2016! The team has to add together the 89% floor from the 2013-2016 years Announced Cap and the 4 year total of those combined Announced Cap has to be measured against what the team actually spent in that four year period. If the team was short (think Cincy), the team has to pay out in 2016 to "match up"."

You'll have to be within something like 3M of the actual cap to roll over anything with the salary floor kicking in next season.

If we resigned both of our FA.

Bowe is reportedly looking for 9M/Y.

Carr to a deal equal to Flowers. 8M/Y.

13M under the true cap.

Now whats Peyton going to get? 3/30?

Give him all $20 of that extra we brought over and he'll be making 5M/Y.

8M under the true cap.

Thats not going to leave us any room to sign another top FA, our lesser known FA's like Belcher, Gordon, etc, and our draft picks.

We'll be able to grab a couple people like BJGE.

Now there are other options to look at like dramatically reducing his 2nd year and backloading it into the final year and cutting his ass before having to pay up.

But thats why I'm not a GM and dont give a shit about those complicated details.

This cap business gives me a headache so I try to ignore it. Think the Chief's will get a deal done with Bowe, make a priority to sign Soliai and upgrade/fix the OL in the draft. Carr worries me.

You have no idea how the salary cap works and how contracts are renegotiated.

the jets NT is really good. the chargers guy is maybe even better for what we need (some inside pass rush) if we can get garay and that enormous MLB from alabama i think our middle is considerably stronger vs pass and rush

Memphis' D-Line was a lone bright spot on an otherwise stupefyingly painful team to watch last year, in large part due to Poe's presence (Johnnie Farms and Frank Trotter are pretty gangster, too, but Poe was the clear stud). I have no idea how he compares to the rest of the candidates but I ****ing adore him and am glad he's getting much-deserved attention.

I keep forgetting UP is a Memphis homer.

No diggity. BIG EAST SPEED Y'ALL

(If you like blowing 14+ point leads against terrible teams like Middle Tennessee State, Marshall, and UAB, Memphis' 2011 season was a dream come true. Worst secondary/o-line ever.)

"Defensive Tackle is the strongest position in the draft," said Charley Casserly of NFL Network, an opinion shared by another former NFL GM Michael Lombardi.

There's a ton of inside talent going to be available and I heard Mayock say he though there could be as many as SIX tackles taken in the 1st round.

That being said, very few of them project to 3-4 NT.

Okay, but in, like, EVERY professional scout's eyes, he is. So...

Except almost every scouting report says something to the effect of:

Negatives -- Pass rush ability is subpar despite impressive get-off, struggles to disengage once blocked, limited potential in this area, only flashes a rip move and nothing else... Lacks the anchor and balance of an elite 3-4 nose tackle prospect and disappeared for stretches at a time playing at Memphis; moving him off the line of scrimmage is easier than expected... Doesn't always maintain gap responsibilities, blockers can easily seal him out of the play... Lacks ideal awareness of the ball carrier, he often ends up out of position to prevent backs from crossing the line of scrimmage... Staying low is difficult, comes out of his stance too high and can be driven off the ball; his height serves as a disadvantage, shorter centers have the natural leverage advantage and can get their hands into his chest, doesn't disengage well versus double teams... Gives up a ton of leverage at 6'5", ideal 3-4 nose tackle height is around 6'1" or 6'2" such as Casey Hampton, Vince Wilfork, Aubrayo Franklin or B.J. Raji... His ability to line up at nose tackle in a three-man front is questioned due to his lack of leverage and balance, has the size of a 3-4 nose but not the skill set, would be a more natural fit in a 4-3 or as a 3-4 DE (5-technique), doesn't project to 3-4 nose as well as his weight would suggest

Read more: http://sidelinescouting.com/rankings...#ixzz1nhUbOey5

Just to be clear - Poe is 6'3", not the 6'5 he was reported as pre-combine.

Phil Taylor is 6'3". Terrence Cody is 6'4". Poe is an inch taller than wilfork and Raji.

I have no idea if he would work as a nose tackle or not. However, I am saying that one inch of height will not be the difference between the hall of fame and a bust.

Just as I had complete faith in Herm Edwards being able to draft and develop cornerbacks, I have complete faith in Romeo Crennel with defensive linemen. I'd rather have a physically gifted, raw player that doesn't have a ton of bad habits to unlearn.


Todd McShay is comparing him to Ngata:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft...combinebuzz227

I'm not crazy on the Poe train - I'd rather have Soliai and DeCastro. But if we draft Poe, I won't be crying about another top pick going to the DL.

bump.

I really liked that kid from Georgia in next years draft. Not remembering his name off the top of my head. Too bad we drafted Poe.

Well then, it looks like we are getting a QB next yr in the 1st rd after Cassel fails again. Guess Pioli decided to deal with the weak run D up the middle this year and decided next yr.'s QB crop coming out is better than the lower half of the QB crop this yr.(Tannehill,Weeden,Cousins,Osweiler).

This buys time for Pioli hoping Cassel finally comes around which won't happen.

spot on

Is this the Poe train?

http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/ima...1cf9530094.jpg

Or maybe more like this?

http://static2.travelandleisure.com/...11-b-train.jpg

I didn't realize how bad the NT draft was. I thought Chapman and Ta'amu were better than 4th and 5th round picks. Sometimes it is easier to tell about a guy by how far he falls because so many times pass them 3 or 4 times. These guys were much worse than I thought.

I guess that is why we took Poe so high. Because there were really no other viable options in the draft.

Or perhaps the other teams that knew they had a need crossed us off their list of competitors and knew they could get their guy later in the draft.

Not only this, but how many teams NEED a starting NT? For teams other than the Chiefs, depth doesn't usually get drafted until round 4. Bubb has been making me scratch my head a lot lately.

Same thing happened to Stanzi. Teams that NEEDED QB's took them early. Not only that, but he was passed up for guys he was ranked higher than universally b/c they were several picks. i.e. He doesn't have a hand cannon, but gets great placement on the deep ball.

Better examples are both Cody and Powe.

Those guys both went a couple of rounds later than anyone thought they would because there just isn't an incredible need for 3-4 NT.

So a guy like Chapman that's not going to be exciting for a 4-3 team or even a 1-gap 3-4 team is going to slide because the Chiefs are about the only 2-gap 3-4 team that was stupid enough to go without a NT for 2 years.

I think Pioli just completely blew the demand for the NT position and reached on Poe.

Kid had better end up a hell of a lot more than just a serviceable NT. We've had our shot at several serviceable NTs in this draft and the last couple.

Moreover, John Jenkins is coming out from Georgia next year, and that guy is a legit nose tackle with size and production in the SEC, probably the best NT prospect in years. Brockers is probably the best five-tech prospect in years. We could have built a crazy d-line.

No shit.

Play Powe, see what he has - if it isn't there, then you can draft any of these guys next year and bookend them with Jackson and Brockers:

Starlite Lotulelei, Utah
- Shared the PAC 12 lineman of the year award with Kalil this past season. Guy is an absolutely beast.

John Hankins, Ohio State

Kwame Geathers, Georgia

Wishful thinking at this point as Brockers is now a Ram. Jesus, that would have been an insane defensive line...

Which gets me to thinking, I wonder if the 2010 and 2011 drafts were so good due to Haley being here versus letting Pioli completely run the show.

It just seems that the 2009 and 2012 drafts are eerily similar in terms of questionable picks that don't really address the needs of the team.

Paging BossChief... you have a call regarding Phil Emery on Line 2...

Im actually pleasantly surprised that we drafted as well as we did.

I was prepared for total Armageddon after the Poe pick.