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-   -   Royals 2012 Kansas City Royals Repository Thread (https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=254372)

DeezNutz 12-10-2012 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58 (Post 9197270)
Looks just like the draft thread after McCluster was taken.

Stockholm Syndrome.

SCTrojan 12-10-2012 04:30 PM

So....does this mean Hochevar starts Opening Day?

OnTheWarpath15 12-10-2012 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeezNutz (Post 9197291)
Stockholm Syndrome.

You coming over, or not?

Valiant 12-10-2012 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefsandO'sfan (Post 9196984)
JIM BOWDEN ‏@JimBowdenESPNxm

James Shields just told us he would be open right now to talk about an extension with the Royals if they are interested "no doubt about it"

Shit. As a royals fan this means his arm is dead or he is injured.

Hope not though. Something great needs to happen to us for once.

Reaper16 12-10-2012 04:49 PM

Remember when Kansas City was so excited about Wil Myers that they sold out the 2012 Futures Game just to see a few at-bats from him? *sighs*

Saul Good 12-10-2012 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper16 (Post 9197354)
Remember when Kansas City was so excited about Wil Myers that they sold out the 2012 Futures Game just to see a few at-bats from him? *sighs*

Yes, and he failed to produce. Kudos to DM for pawning him off on the Rays.

Jenson71 12-10-2012 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper16 (Post 9197354)
Remember when Kansas City was so excited about Wil Myers that they sold out the 2012 Futures Game just to see a few at-bats from him? *sighs*

I still love Wil Myers. He helped us get a high-quality, durable, if not great, ace.

BlackHelicopters 12-10-2012 04:54 PM

Shields said to be open to an extension. He knows GMDM is an idiot, and Shields is just a dumb ball player. Want to thank my Father again for raising me a Royals fan. Dad, you were right on every other thing, though.

DeezNutz 12-10-2012 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saul Good (Post 9197364)
Yes, and he failed to produce. Kudos to DM for pawning him off on the Rays.

LMAO. I hope you didn't hand back your guns to the league.

BlackHelicopters 12-10-2012 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper16 (Post 9197354)
Remember when Kansas City was so excited about Wil Myers that they sold out the 2012 Futures Game just to see a few at-bats from him? *sighs*

The good ole days...............

BlackHelicopters 12-10-2012 04:57 PM

35,000-38,000 came out to see Myers and Odirizzi for ten minutes in July. Thanks GMDM.

KC_Connection 12-10-2012 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiTown (Post 9197230)
Yeah, I hear that, but I don't see it. I think by June, he's in the BP

And lose out to who exactly?

Again, the Royals don't make this trade unless they think highly of Davis and his five years of control as a potential starter.

DJ's left nut 12-10-2012 05:14 PM

What say you, Royals fans? I posted this in the Cardinals thread and it honestly seems like a decent idea:

Quote:

This will get lost in the Royals thread, but isn't Skip a perfect trade candidate for KC?

They need a reasonably priced platoon OFer to play RF with Frenchy. Skips OBP against lefties is right around .360, which is damn good. He's a quality hitter with a nice eye that would be a boost for any lineup that doesn't have a true leadoff hitter (the Royals don't).

Better still, if by some chance Frenchy recaptures his 2011 form, Skip's definitely a better option at 2b for them than Chris Getz. Hell, he could probably start every day over getz if need b.

Skip's a great fit for that team. He's reasonably priced, gets on base and fills both of the holes the Royals have. They have 3 nice little SS prospects in the low minors (Calixte, Mondesi and Arteaga) and a young starter with a ton of team control already in place at SS.

Surely they'd be willing to give up one of those guys for a guy that would give them 500 quality ABs in a couple of positions they could really use some help.
With Myers gone, you'll need someone that you can fall back on in RF if Frenchy is a disaster. For everything Skip Schumaker is not, he is a consistent LH hitter that will give you nice ABs against RH hitters and play his ass off night in, night out. He's a good RFer and a below average 2b that will do in a pinch (though his arm and ability to range into the OF and medium range fly balls is often very useful).

He's inexpensive and fits your roster well. With the Royals now needing to deal with RF, he seems a great trade target for you.

Strongside 12-10-2012 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theelusiveeightrop (Post 9197400)
35,000-38,000 came out to see Myers and Odirizzi for ten minutes in July. Thanks GMDM.

I'd rather see 40,000 come out to see the Royals in the playoffs. I was born in '85, man. This is the most hope I've ever had for that becoming a reality.

siberian khatru 12-10-2012 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 9197467)
What say you, Royals fans? I posted this in the Cardinals thread and it honestly seems like a decent idea:



With Myers gone, you'll need someone that you can fall back on in RF if Frenchy is a disaster. For everything Skip Schumaker is not, he is a consistent LH hitter that will give you nice ABs against RH hitters and play his ass off night in, night out. He's a good RFer and a below average 2b that will do in a pinch (though his arm and ability to range into the OF and medium range fly balls is often very useful).

He's inexpensive and fits your roster well. With the Royals now needing to deal with RF, he seems a great trade target for you.


Get your stinkin' paws off Mondesi, you damn dirty ape!

Mama Hip Rockets 12-10-2012 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 9197467)
What say you, Royals fans? I posted this in the Cardinals thread and it honestly seems like a decent idea:



With Myers gone, you'll need someone that you can fall back on in RF if Frenchy is a disaster. For everything Skip Schumaker is not, he is a consistent LH hitter that will give you nice ABs against RH hitters and play his ass off night in, night out. He's a good RFer and a below average 2b that will do in a pinch (though his arm and ability to range into the OF and medium range fly balls is often very useful).

He's inexpensive and fits your roster well. With the Royals now needing to deal with RF, he seems a great trade target for you.

I would rather watch Jeff Francouer swing mightily and miss 89-MPH fastballs all year long than watch Skip Schumaker adjust his damn batting gloves in between every single pitch of the entire season.

Mr. Laz 12-10-2012 05:45 PM

Grienke 147 million ... 2nd largest ever for a pitcher next to Sabathia

Demonpenz 12-10-2012 05:49 PM

I guess Grienke turned all his guns in as well.

Prison Bitch 12-10-2012 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brainiac (Post 9196964)
Here's something to think about:

Will Myers split the season between AA and AA. He hit .314 with 37 home runs and 109 RBI. He doesn't run, throw, or play defense particularly well. He is not Mike Trout, no matter how much we wanted him to be.

In 2008 the Royals had another minor-league player who split his season between AA and AAA. He hit .314 with 37 home runs and 100 RBI. Those numbers are pretty much identical to the numbers Will Myers put up in 2012.

Any Royals fan worth his salt knows I'm talking about Kila Ka'aihue. I'm not saying Will Myers is going to wash out like Kila Ka'aihue did, but the fact is that Myers is an UNPROVEN PROSPECT. Hitting .314 with 37 homers and over 100 RBI in the minor leagues is nice, but it doesn't make you a major league All-Star. Myers might turn out to be a guy who hits 35 home runs a year in the majors. He might turn out to be a guy who hits 20 home runs. And it's not impossible that he could turn out to be no better than Kila Ka'aihue.

Kila Ka'aihue was 24 years old when he had his breakout season in the minors. Myers was 22. In three previous seasons in the minors, Will Meyers hit a TOTAL of 27 home runs, so this is not exactly Babe Ruth we're talking about.



Kila was named BB America Player of the Year? Dammit, I never knew.

Saul Good 12-10-2012 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prison Bitch (Post 9197603)
Kila was named BB America Player of the Year? Dammit, I never knew.

Yes. He said it was an exact analogy, but it wasn't exact. Nothing gets by you.

duncan_idaho 12-10-2012 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 9197467)
What say you, Royals fans? I posted this in the Cardinals thread and it honestly seems like a decent idea:

With Myers gone, you'll need someone that you can fall back on in RF if Frenchy is a disaster. For everything Skip Schumaker is not, he is a consistent LH hitter that will give you nice ABs against RH hitters and play his ass off night in, night out. He's a good RFer and a below average 2b that will do in a pinch (though his arm and ability to range into the OF and medium range fly balls is often very useful).

He's inexpensive and fits your roster well. With the Royals now needing to deal with RF, he seems a great trade target for you.

I would be open to a Skip Schumacher deal. Reliever/depth starter sound like a good fit?

I could see flipping someone like Louis Coleman (nasty vs. RH), or maybe a starting depth guy (Will Smith, Everett Teaford, Nate Adcock) for Skip.

EDIT: Just saw thepart of your post that references getting a shortstop back.

Mondesi and Calixte are not options. Not for Skip Shumacher. Artaega would be a potential option, as he is severely blocked.

I'm not sure they'd move Mondesi for anything, if what I've heard about his estimation inside the organization is true. He's a definite top 100 kid, possible top 50 (what he did at age 16 is VERY comparable to Jurickson Profar at the same age). Calixte is another helium prospect (and I think he's about to EXPLODE in the friendly hitting confines at AA after posting a .752 OPS in Wilmington).

Fansy the Famous Bard 12-10-2012 05:57 PM

Could we unload Chen on them? Lol

Prison Bitch 12-10-2012 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saul Good (Post 9197606)
Yes. He said it was an exact analogy, but it wasn't exact. Nothing gets by you.


Are you still ass-hurt about me mocking Mizzou sports? I feel horrible for fans like you who like the Chiefs/Royals/MU. Suicide is a good option for your types.

lewdog 12-10-2012 05:58 PM

Thank God you guys are feeling better, I was worried!

But seriously, I was pissed going to bed last night but all day at work I thought about it. We have for years, built stars only to ship them off to other teams for prospects. Now we are on the reverse end, shipping prospects for good quality players. It is what the good teams do to make a run in the short-term. I think most of us were just scared because it hasn't really even happened!

Having a great farm system is great, but prospects are like gambling. Sometimes you just have to sell high, especially when you can sell high for a guy who has never seen a big league at bat.

lewdog 12-10-2012 05:59 PM

Thank God you guys are feeling better, I was worried!

But seriously, I was pissed going to bed last night but all day at work I thought about it. We have for years, built stars only to ship them off to other teams for prospects. Now we are on the reverse end, shipping prospects for good quality players. It is what the good teams do to make a run in the short-term. I think most of us were just scared because it hasn't really even happened!

Having a great farm system is great, but prospects are like gambling. Sometimes you just have to sell high, especially when you can sell high for a guy who has never seen a big league at bat.

Saul Good 12-10-2012 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prison Bitch (Post 9197628)
Are you still ass-hurt about me mocking Mizzou sports? I feel horrible for fans like you who like the Chiefs/Royals/MU. Suicide is a good option for your types.

No. You're just a ****ing moron. Judging by your rep, I represent the majority opinion of the board, BTW.

Chiefspants 12-10-2012 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 9197467)
What say you, Royals fans? I posted this in the Cardinals thread and it honestly seems like a decent idea:



With Myers gone, you'll need someone that you can fall back on in RF if Frenchy is a disaster. For everything Skip Schumaker is not, he is a consistent LH hitter that will give you nice ABs against RH hitters and play his ass off night in, night out. He's a good RFer and a below average 2b that will do in a pinch (though his arm and ability to range into the OF and medium range fly balls is often very useful).

He's inexpensive and fits your roster well. With the Royals now needing to deal with RF, he seems a great trade target for you.

Eh, I don't know, where does Schumaker land on the grit metric?

Prison Bitch 12-10-2012 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saul Good (Post 9197686)
No. You're just a ****ing moron. Judging by your rep, I represent the majority opinion of the board, BTW.

Well I won't get popular making fun of Mizzou on a Chiefs board, I know how sensitive your people are to any mentoin of your 100 years of failure.

DJ's left nut 12-10-2012 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiefspants (Post 9197696)
Eh, I don't know, where does Schumaker land on the grit metric?

Holy shit, you have no idea how high he scores on the grit-o-meter.

Skip Schumaker is the KING of the headfirst slide into 1b. What he losses in soft hands at 2b, he makes up for by willing to let the ball bounce off his face before unleashing a rocket to 1b (it really is impressive how willing he is to keep his chest square to the ball and knock it down to complete the force; fundamentally perfect, you just don't often see it at this level).

If grit is what you're after, there isn't a better guy available.

DJ's left nut 12-10-2012 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saul Good (Post 9197686)
No. You're just a ****ing moron. Judging by your rep, I represent the majority opinion of the board, BTW.

It's Wickedson.

slapnutz_4 12-10-2012 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 9197467)
What say you, Royals fans? I posted this in the Cardinals thread and it honestly seems like a decent idea:



With Myers gone, you'll need someone that you can fall back on in RF if Frenchy is a disaster. For everything Skip Schumaker is not, he is a consistent LH hitter that will give you nice ABs against RH hitters and play his ass off night in, night out. He's a good RFer and a below average 2b that will do in a pinch (though his arm and ability to range into the OF and medium range fly balls is often very useful).

He's inexpensive and fits your roster well. With the Royals now needing to deal with RF, he seems a great trade target for you.

i wouldn't mind schumaker but someone i would really like to take a flier on if u can get them cheap is grady sizemore... not sure if he has anything left but would like to try

siberian khatru 12-10-2012 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slapnutz_4 (Post 9197714)
i wouldn't mind schumaker but someone i would really like to take a flier on if u can get them cheap is grady sizemore... not sure if he has anything left but would like to try

I think he's out til June or so.

Prison Bitch 12-10-2012 06:51 PM

Shields has 15+ wins and 200+ strikeouts each of the past two years.


In the 43 years of Royals history, it had only happened twice.

1) Leonard 1977
2) Greinke 2009

Unsmooth-Moment 12-10-2012 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prison Bitch (Post 9197807)
Shields has 15+ wins and 200+ strikeouts each of the past two years.


In the 43 years of Royals history, it had only happened twice.

1) Leonard 1977
2) Greinke 2009

People here are over-valuaing prospects and undervaluing ace pitching (even if it is for 2 years)

Nightfyre 12-10-2012 06:54 PM

If shields signs for four years at ~60MM, I will be much less disappointed. However, I was really looking forward to a lineup that went something like this:

Gordon(L)/Myers(R)/Hosmer(L)/Butler(R)/Moose(L)/Perez(R)/Cain(R)/getz(L)/Escobar(R)

Prison Bitch 12-10-2012 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unsmooth-Moment (Post 9197813)
People here are over-valuaing prospects and undervaluing ace pitching (even if it is for 2 years)


4 players have 15+ wins and 200+ strikeouts the past 2 years. One is Shields, obviously. Who are the other 3? Trivia!

Unsmooth-Moment 12-10-2012 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightfyre (Post 9197815)
If shields signs for four years at ~60MM, I will be much less disappointed.

Not to mention it would show MLB that the Royals are committed to winning. Players take notice of teams getting set up for contention.

SAUTO 12-10-2012 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prison Bitch (Post 9197822)
4 players have 15+ wins and 200+ strikeouts the past 2 years. One is Shields, obviously. Who are the other 3? Trivia!

It was in the same article.
Posted via Mobile Device

Unsmooth-Moment 12-10-2012 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prison Bitch (Post 9197822)
4 players have 15+ wins and 200+ strikeouts the past 2 years. One is Shields, obviously. Who are the other 3? Trivia!

Gio, Verlander, and Weaver would be my guesses.

Nightfyre 12-10-2012 07:01 PM

I'm going CC and Verlander. Shit CC fell 3 strikeouts short in 2012. Wins are a shitty stat anyway.

SAUTO 12-10-2012 07:02 PM

One was a guy most won't get.

unless you had him in fantasy
Posted via Mobile Device

Unsmooth-Moment 12-10-2012 07:03 PM

I wanna know now without having to look anything up!

Nightfyre 12-10-2012 07:04 PM

David Price

Reaper16 12-10-2012 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JASONSAUTO (Post 9197839)
One was a guy most won't get.

unless you had him in fantasy
Posted via Mobile Device

Or you just pay attention to the NL Central.

SAUTO 12-10-2012 07:04 PM

Greinke gallardo verlander
Posted via Mobile Device

Nightfyre 12-10-2012 07:05 PM

Yovani Gallardo!

SAUTO 12-10-2012 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper16 (Post 9197846)
Or you just pay attention to the NL Central.

Lol, I was just repeating what the article said
Posted via Mobile Device

Unsmooth-Moment 12-10-2012 07:07 PM

Gio fell 3 K's short in 2011.. ahh

Nightfyre 12-10-2012 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unsmooth-Moment (Post 9197858)
Gio fell 3 K's short in 2011.. ahh

CC fell three strikeouts short in 2012. Lets not even get on the wins aspect. Clayton Kershaw fell one win short.

Bump 12-10-2012 07:09 PM

sounds like the Royals actually are trying?

it's always the other way around, we give somebody who is good now for prospects.

DeezNutz 12-10-2012 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 9197467)
What say you, Royals fans? I posted this in the Cardinals thread and it honestly seems like a decent idea:



With Myers gone, you'll need someone that you can fall back on in RF if Frenchy is a disaster. For everything Skip Schumaker is not, he is a consistent LH hitter that will give you nice ABs against RH hitters and play his ass off night in, night out. He's a good RFer and a below average 2b that will do in a pinch (though his arm and ability to range into the OF and medium range fly balls is often very useful).

He's inexpensive and fits your roster well. With the Royals now needing to deal with RF, he seems a great trade target for you.

Kill yourself.

Just because we're in a Royals thread doesn't mean we're all as stupid as DM. Skip Schumakers are grown by the bushel full on the farm.

Unsmooth-Moment 12-10-2012 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightfyre (Post 9197862)
CC fell three strikeouts short in 2012. Lets not even get on the wins aspect. Clayton Kershaw fell one win short.

Yeah Kershaw is ice.

Prison Bitch 12-10-2012 07:13 PM

Ok, so Verlander-Greinke-Gallardo. And just missing: Kershaw, Gio, CC.



Which of those 7 players do the Royals have a legit chance to acquire? Because we just acquired the 8th of that caliber of pitcher.

Nightfyre 12-10-2012 07:14 PM

If you use wins as a metric by which to measure your pitchers. Which is totally flawed.

alnorth 12-10-2012 07:15 PM

Well, I guess Flanagan is all-in. I don't know enough about minor league player development to comment, but I found this part interesting:

Quote:

In fact, one American League scout told me last month that he had reservations about Myers.

“He is still paralyzed by the curveball,” the scout said. “Great fastball hitter but until he learns to hit breaking pitches, he won't get out of the minors. Needs at least another year in the minors.”

As for Odorizzi, acquired in the Zack Greinke trade in 2010, a Royals official seemed resigned to the fact that Odorizzi would never be more than a No. 4 or No. 5 starter.

“Smart kid who may learn enough pitches to survive,” the Royals official told me. “But he's a bit frail. He could have durability issues.”

Montgomery? Even Royals fans who hated Sunday's trade have to concede that Montgomery, once regarded highly in the organization, has regressed severely. And the same American League scout said of Montgomery, “Pretty much average stuff. Sorry. Decent fastball but doesn't trust it.”

Joe_Camel 12-10-2012 07:16 PM

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...de-aint-pretty

A Royal Blunder
Why it made no sense for the Kansas City Royals to trade star prospect Wil Myers
By Rany Jazayerli on December 10, 2012

Dayton Moore, the general manager of the Kansas City Royals, has been far from perfect at his job. He has made bad trades (Melky Cabrera for Jonathan Sanchez), he has made terrible free-agent signings ($36 million for Jose Guillen), and he has signed Jeff Francoeur not once, but twice.

But two years ago, he was able to deliver something to Royals fans that they hadn't felt for a quarter-century: hope. After the 2010 season, the Royals had fashioned the greatest farm system in baseball, the greatest anyone had seen in years. People were talking about the Royals, and not as a punchline. After 25 years without so much as a pennant race, fans of the team could realistically dream about the playoffs — not just a fluky, 2012-Orioles-style appearance, but a legitimate mini-dynasty atop the weak AL Central.

Last night, that dream was ripped apart like a cheap piρata. Frustrated by the inability to develop a starting rotation to pair with the team's young, talented offense, Moore traded Baseball America's Minor League Player of the Year, right fielder Wil Myers, and three other solid prospects to the Tampa Bay Rays for James Shields and Wade Davis.

The Royals got a terrific starting pitcher in Shields, and Davis was a solid back-end starter for the Rays in 2010 and 2011 before they moved him to the bullpen in 2012, where he excelled. But Kansas City gave up an astonishing amount of talent, rivaling the Atlanta Braves' regrettable payment for Mark Teixeira1 in 2007 as the largest collection of prospects traded in the past decade.

This is a terrible trade for the Royals, deeply flawed in both its theory and execution, and while it might make the Royals marginally more likely to make the playoffs in 2013, it does irreparable damage to their chances of building a perennial winner.

Let's start here: Wil Myers is not a good prospect. He is not a very good prospect. He is one of the best prospects in baseball, almost certain to be among the top five of every prospect list that is published this offseason. Good prospects fail all the time. Very good prospects fail more often than not. But the very best prospects — especially hitting prospects, whose risk of injury is dramatically lower than their counterparts on the mound — turn into above-average regulars, if not stars, well over 50 percent of the time.

Myers, as mentioned, was named Minor League Player of the Year. In the past 20 years, 14 position players won the same award. Here are their names:

1992: Tim Salmon
1993: Manny Ramirez
1994: Derek Jeter
1995: Andruw Jones
1996: Andruw Jones
1997: Paul Konerko
1998: Eric Chavez
2002: Rocco Baldelli
2003: Joe Mauer
2005: Delmon Young
2006: Alex Gordon
2007: Jay Bruce
2008: Matt Wieters
2009: Jason Heyward
2011: Mike Trout

Yes, Delmon Young was once the Minor League Player of the Year, and if you want to spin this trade for the Royals, you can bring up Young's name as a cautionary tale. And after a promising start to his career, Rocco Baldelli was ravaged by injuries and his career ended at age 28. But every other player on that list has gone on to become a well-above-average player at his position. Most of them became stars. At least a few will go into the Hall of Fame.

Based on the list above, Wil Myers has about an 86 percent chance of becoming a true impact player in the major leagues. Yes, that's based on a small sample size, but that's just the point: Myers is a special player, and there are precious few players that you can compare him to. In 2012, he hit .314/.387/.600 between Double-A and Triple-A while playing the entire season at age 21. He hit 37 home runs, the most by any 21-year-old in the high minors (Double-A and Triple-A) since 1963.

Myers wasn't just one of the best prospects in baseball. He also perfectly fit the one glaring hole in the Royals lineup. The fantastic farm system from two years ago has already supplied the Royals with young talent at first base (Eric Hosmer), third base (Mike Moustakas), and catcher (Salvador Perez) to go along with earlier farm system products in left field (Alex Gordon) and at DH (Billy Butler). The Zack Greinke trade brought in starters at shortstop (Alcides Escobar) and center field (Lorenzo Cain).

But in right field, the Royals committed to Jeff Francoeur, who in 2012 was arguably the worst everyday player in the major leagues. (This continues a long tradition of a Commitment to Execrableness in Kansas City. Yuniesky Betancourt would have once again contended for the worst everyday player honor had he played more.) Francoeur hit .235/.287/.378, which would be atrocious for a shortstop, and despite his cannon arm in right field, he had such poor range that defensive metrics estimate he cost the Royals about 10 runs on defense.

Instead of replacing Francoeur with Myers in 2013, a switch that would be worth around four wins, they're stuck with the game's worst right fielder for another season. The downgrade from Myers to Francoeur is almost enough to cancel out the benefit from acquiring Shields.

Shields is an excellent pitcher who has thrown more innings over the past two seasons than anyone except Justin Verlander. But he's not an ace, and if you're going to give up a prospect as good as Wil Myers, you need to get an ace.

Shields has a 3.89 career ERA, and a 3.15 ERA over the past two years. (Mind you, three years ago he had a 5.18 ERA and led the AL in hits, earned runs, and home runs allowed.) But here's the thing: In Tampa Bay, he played in one of the best pitchers' parks in baseball, in front of one of the best defenses in baseball, for one of the best managers in baseball. He brings none of those things with him to Kansas City.

Ballpark? For his career, Shields has a 3.33 ERA when pitching at Tropicana Field. When pitching anywhere else, he has a 4.54 ERA.

Defense? By defensive efficiency — a measure of what percentage of the time a defense turns a ball in play into an out — the Rays have had the best or second-best defense in the major leagues for each of the past three years. By comparison, over the past three seasons the Royals have ranked 28th, 24th, and 26th in defensive efficiency.

Manager? Joe Maddon's record speaks for itself.

These factors are intertwined to some extent; one thing that makes Maddon great is that he's so aggressive about using defensive shifts, which improves the team's defensive efficiency, as does the ballpark. Overall, it's fair to say that Shields is a good pitcher who was put in position to look like a very good pitcher.

In terms of pure baseball value, Shields has the edge in 2013. But of course, the Royals and Rays didn't trade players — they traded contracts, and the difference between the two is staggering. The Rays have control of Myers for at least the next six years — and given their knack for signing star players to long-term deals as soon as they reach the majors (Evan Longoria, Matt Moore), it wouldn't be a surprise if they soon have Myers under club control into the next decade. The Royals have control of James Shields for two years.

Myers will be making the major league minimum, more or less, for the next three years. Shields will get paid $10.5 million in 2013, and the Royals have an option for him at $12 million in 2014.

That's the most inexplicable part of this trade — that a team that plays in a tiny market, whose owner has a history of (to be kind) penuriousness, and who has already indicated that they've reached their payroll cap, would trade a potential star making minimum wage for a pitcher who earns eight figures in each of the next two seasons. You can't simply evaluate this trade by comparing Myers to Shields — you have to compare what the Royals could have done with Myers and all that money they're going to spend on Shields. For $22 million over the next two seasons, the Royals could sign Shaun Marcum. They could come close to signing Edwin Jackson. Hell, Brandon McCarthy, who can't stay healthy but who has a 3.29 ERA over the past two years, just signed with the Diamondbacks for two years and $15.5 million.

James Shields makes the Royals' rotation much better in 2013. But so would a lot of pitchers who would have signed for the money Kansas City is committing to him. The difference between Shields and any of those pitchers amounts to one more win in 2013, two at the most. And all they would have cost is money — not one of the best prospects in baseball.

Wade Davis, the other pitcher the Royals acquired, may also help their rotation in 2013, which says more about the state of their rotation than about him. Davis was a marginal starter for Tampa Bay in 2010 and 2011, primarily because he couldn't put batters away. He struck out only 5.6 batters per nine innings, well below average. The Rays had the depth in their rotation to move Davis to the bullpen for 2012, and there he improved dramatically — his fastball velocity jumped from 91.8 mph to 93.7 mph, his slider was sharper, and his strikeout rate literally doubled to 11.1 per nine innings.

Davis can be a dominant reliever, but the Royals have a stacked bullpen, and they have announced that Davis will go into spring training with a chance to reestablish himself in the rotation. Given that their bullpen is stacked, this is a rare glimpse of wisdom in the insanity that is this deal. If Davis can maintain his extra juice, he would be a very valuable no. 3 starter — particularly since Davis is signed to a contract that gives the Royals club options to keep him at a reasonable salary through 2017.

It's unlikely that this trade will work out for the Royals, but if it does, Davis — not Shields — will be the key to the trade. And if the Royals traded six-plus years of Wil Myers for seven combined years of control of Shields and Davis, this would almost be a fair deal. It would still favor the Rays, given that Myers is years away from making serious money, while Shields and Davis are already making it. But at least it wouldn't be Grand Theft Farm System.

Ah, but the Royals also threw in three other prospects!

Jake Odorizzi, whom the Royals acquired when they traded Zack Greinke two years ago, is a major league–ready starter with four average to above-average pitches. In 145 innings between Double-A and Triple-A, he struck out 135, walked 50, and had a 3.03 ERA. He's probably not more than a no. 3 starter in the end, but he's already a finished prospect — you don't have to dream on him. He was ranked the no. 69 prospect by Baseball America two years ago, the no. 68 prospect last year, and will probably be in that range again. Basically, he's Wade Davis, only four years younger and with three years' less service time.

Mike Montgomery was one of the best left-handed pitchers in the minors two years ago, back when everything was coming up 7's for the Royals. Even a year ago, he was ranked above Myers as the Royals' best prospect, thanks to a fastball in the mid-90s and an excellent changeup. He has mysteriously lost the ability to get hitters out, however, with an ERA over 5 in the minors in each of the past two seasons. He's a lottery ticket for Tampa Bay, but one that could pay off very, very big.

Patrick Leonard just turned 20 years old, and he hit 14 homers in 62 games in rookie ball this year. He could be just about anything. He's not a top prospect, and probably never will be, but he's just the safety-deposit box the Rays snatched up on their way out of the bank vault.

So if you want to read this trade as charitably as possible from the Royals' perspective, you can say that they almost got fair value for Wil Myers … and then flushed Odorizzi, Montgomery, and Leonard down the toilet.

It's a terrible trade, and for it to work out at all for the Royals, they have to go to the playoffs next season. If they do, then the tradeoff might be worth it, the way it was for the Milwaukee Brewers two years ago when they traded Brett Lawrie for Shaun Marcum, and four young players for Zack Greinke.

But as they're presently constructed, the Royals still aren't good enough to win the AL Central. Their top four starters, none of whom were with the team as recently as July, are Shields, Jeremy Guthrie, Ervin Santana, and Davis. Aside from Shields, that's a lot of league-average talent. If they're going to the playoffs, their offense will have to carry them there.

Only here's the thing: The Royals' offense was worse than their pitching staff last season. Thanks to their fine bullpen, the Royals ranked 10th in the AL in runs allowed in 2012. They ranked 12th in runs scored.

If the Royals do make the playoffs in 2013, it will be because their offense took a huge step forward. It will be because Eric Hosmer, who struggled to hit .232/.304/.359 as a sophomore, returns to being the Will Clark clone that everyone expects him to be. It will be because Salvador Perez doesn't get hurt and miss half the season, and because Mike Moustakas improves his batting average, and — most of all — because the Royals get production out of right field.

By making this trade, the Royals gave away the most obvious source of an offensive upgrade. There is no better example of robbing Peter to pay Paul.

There is also no better example of moral hazard, the term that applies to the dangers of having a decision maker (like, say, a GM) whose self-interests are not aligned with those he's making decisions for (like, say, a baseball team). Prior to this trade, the Royals were well set up to win 85-90 games in 2014, when a wave of pitching talent in their farm system was expected to catch up with the hitters who have already arrived. They seemed poised to be competitive through the rest of the decade. Wil Myers would have been in the middle of their lineup the entire time.

But winning 90 games in 2014 does Dayton Moore no good if the Royals struggle again in 2013, because after six consecutive losing seasons to start Moore's tenure, a seventh in 2013 would probably mean he'd be out of a job. This trade hurts the Royals significantly in the long term, but it might help Moore keep his job in the short term.

If the Royals reach the postseason in 2013, ending the longest playoff drought in American sports, Moore will keep his job, and he might even deserve to. It was the work of his front office that led the Royals to draft players like Myers2 in the first place. Even if Moore gutted his farm system for a playoff appearance, by Kansas City standards that qualifies as an unbridled success.

And if they don't win, well, at least there won't be any doubt about whom to blame. It's not owner David Glass, not with the Royals poised to have a payroll north of $80 million. Moore didn't just push all his chips into the pot — he pushed in his job security as well. If his gamble fails, and if it turns out that Moore sacrificed the Royals' future for an illusory present, Royals fans can only hope that someone else will be able to pick up the pieces.

Reaper16 12-10-2012 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alnorth (Post 9197880)
Well, I guess Flanagan is all-in. I don't know enough about minor league player development to comment, but I found this part interesting:

Odorizzi throws 4 pitches. How many more does he have left to learn?

DJ's left nut 12-10-2012 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeezNutz (Post 9197863)
Kill yourself.

Just because we're in a Royals thread doesn't mean we're all as stupid as DM. Skip Schumakers are grown by the bushel full on the farm.

That's the thing - they don't.

Find me someone in your farm system that can play a plus RF, adequate 2b and give you a .360 OBP against righties. The Royals had exactly 1 guy on their major league roster put up a .360 OBP against RHers last season.

People sleep on Skip's ability to get on base - he's actually quite good at it.

Prison Bitch 12-10-2012 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightfyre (Post 9197879)
If you use wins as a metric by which to measure your pitchers. Which is totally flawed.


Yeah. I look at that list of 8, and it's a bunch of no-name dogs that seem to make no sense sitting on a list of the games best starters. Let's drop "wins" from the group.


Sabermetrics is cool, but it's not really disproving anything here in this instance.

ChiefsCountry 12-10-2012 07:21 PM

Skip would be perfect in two spot in the batting order.

Nightfyre 12-10-2012 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prison Bitch (Post 9197892)
Yeah. I look at that list of 8, and it's a bunch of no-name dogs that seem to make no sense sitting on a list of the games best starters. Let's drop "wins" from the group.


Sabermetrics is cool, but it's not really disproving anything here in this instance.

By all true measurements, Shields is around the 25th best pitcher in the league. Don't try and oversell me on this ace bullshit.

alnorth 12-10-2012 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper16 (Post 9197886)
Odorizzi throws 4 pitches. How many more does he have left to learn?

are those pitches any good? Most pitchers mechanically know how one could throw at least 7 or 8 pitches.

alnorth 12-10-2012 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightfyre (Post 9197897)
By all true measurements, Shields is around the 25th best pitcher in the league. Don't try and oversell me on this ace bullshit.

Wouldn't ace, by definition, be the top 30 pitchers in baseball? We have 30 teams, 30 #1 slots, and the word "ace" is synonymous with the number one. Some teams obviously have more than 1 ace, and some have none, but I'd say the cutoff is probably the 30th-best pitcher, the cutoff for "#2 pitcher" is at #60, and so on.

SAUTO 12-10-2012 07:31 PM

Love how rany kicked o's douchebag in the face
Posted via Mobile Device

Chiefspants 12-10-2012 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alnorth (Post 9197921)
Wouldn't ace, by definition, be the top 30 pitchers in baseball? We have 30 teams, 30 #1 slots, and the word "ace" is synonymous with the number one. Some teams obviously have more than 1 ace, and some have none, but I'd say the cutoff is probably the 30th-best pitcher, the cutoff for "#2 pitcher" is at #60, and so on.

That's what I was thinking as well, if Zack had magically signed on to the Royals again, I am sure many would be rejoicing that we had an ace again. This is rather hypocritical, as Shields has actually outpitched the 147 Million Dollar Man over the past two seasons.

Nightfyre 12-10-2012 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alnorth (Post 9197921)
Wouldn't ace, by definition, be the top 30 pitchers in baseball? We have 30 teams, 30 #1 slots, and the word "ace" is synonymous with the number one. Some teams obviously have more than 1 ace, and some have none, but I'd say the cutoff is probably the 30th-best pitcher, the cutoff for "#2 pitcher" is at #60, and so on.

I would say there is not a true ace on every pitching staff, just as there is not a franchise QB on every football team. JMO.

alnorth 12-10-2012 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightfyre (Post 9197934)
I would say there is not a true ace on every pitching staff, just as there is not a franchise QB on every football team. JMO.

well yeah. I specifically said that.

We should be able to come up with a list of pitchers who are under contract to pitch in 2013, and from that list, we have 30 aces, 30 #2's, 30 #3's, etc.

Nightfyre 12-10-2012 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alnorth (Post 9197946)
well yeah. I specifically said that.

We should be able to come up with a list of pitchers who are under contract to pitch in 2013, and from that list, we have 30 aces, 30 #2's, 30 #3's, etc.

Shields is borderline. But overselling it as some great trade where we grabbed some top 10 pitcher is disingenuous. (as the prison fella is doing)

I am actually cooling off about the trade as a whole. The thing is, if we don't win this year, these young players may just give up hope of ever being a winner in KC. You could already see the seams of the clubhouse getting ready to burst at the end of last year. I specifically remember frenchy getting thrown out at second like a dumbass and Hosmer/Moose just ripping him a new asshole.

stonedstooge 12-10-2012 07:39 PM

Listened to a clip of him on KC radio today. Dude sounds really excited to be coming here

Prison Bitch 12-10-2012 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightfyre (Post 9197897)
By all true measurements, Shields is around the 25th best pitcher in the league. Don't try and oversell me on this ace bullshit.


Bull. Shields is a damn good pitcher. You don't just walk out there on the mound in the Bigs, and toss 200 IP and strike out 200+. Esp in the AL with the DH in these lineups. Saying he's not that hot......it's bull.



And I'm totally against the trade so, can't accuse me of bias here.

Ceej 12-10-2012 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JASONSAUTO (Post 9197931)
Love how rany kicked o's douchebag in the face
Posted via Mobile Device

Wait, wha?

What did I miss?

Prison Bitch 12-10-2012 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightfyre (Post 9197934)
I would say there is not a true ace on every pitching staff, just as there is not a franchise QB on every football team. JMO.

Crazy-ass analogy. There are 5 pitchers in a rotation and only 1 QB. A better analogy would be to say every NFL team has 1 playmaker at the WR/RB position. That's four guys to choose from. Most do, some do not. But QB to a rotation is a dumb analogy.

DeezNutz 12-10-2012 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 9197889)
That's the thing - they don't.

Find me someone in your farm system that can play a plus RF, adequate 2b and give you a .360 OBP against righties. The Royals had exactly 1 guy on their major league roster put up a .360 OBP against RHers last season.

People sleep on Skip's ability to get on base - he's actually quite good at it.

Myers. Oh, ****.

Mr. Laz 12-10-2012 08:01 PM

Shields is a legit #2+ type pitcher ... not an ace but a solid,winning pitcher

Wade Davis is a solid 3 or a stud long reliever

Hosmer rebounds

Frenchy straightens up at the plate

Cain stays healthy

Gio figures it out


Royals go to World Series


BOOM!!!!!!!

alnorth 12-10-2012 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laz (Post 9198069)
Shields is a legit #2+ type pitcher ... not an ace but a solid,winning pitcher

Wade Davis is a solid 3 or a stud long reliever

Hosmer rebounds

Frenchy straightens up at the plate

Cain stays healthy

Gio figures it out


Royals go to World Series


BOOM!!!!!!!

I started looking at the Tigers lineup, and rotation. Looking at the Bill James projections (which by the way predicts a bunch of our players will rebound), and its sobering.

Detroit, on paper, looks pretty good. They wouldn't win the AL East, but by the AL Central's crappy standards, they will be tough, and I don't think we'll have a wild card in this division.

Whoever starts the 2013 thread, whether its me or someone else, probably should have a picture of the Detroit "D" in a gun cross-hair.

ChiefsCountry 12-10-2012 08:07 PM

Last time the Royals won the World Series, Detroit was the defending AL Champions.

KevB 12-10-2012 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alnorth (Post 9198091)
I started looking at the Tigers lineup, and rotation. Looking at the Bill James projections (which by the way predicts a bunch of our players will rebound), and its sobering.

Detroit, on paper, looks pretty good. They wouldn't win the AL East, but by the AL Central's crappy standards, they will be tough, and I don't think we'll have a wild card in this division.

Whoever starts the 2013 thread, whether its me or someone else, probably should have a picture of the Detroit "D" in a gun cross-hair.

Defense is still terrible, although adding Torii to a corner OF spot helps. They probably lose Delmon Young, but they get Victor Martinez back, so that's a net add. Verlander/Scherzer/Fister is nice, but if they get Anibal back....yikes. A bit suspect at the back of their pen....we'll see what they do there. But a lineup of Austin Jackson/Torii/Miggy/Prince/Martinez/Peralta and beyond is scary.

We need somebody (Rangers ?) to sign Sanchez so the Tigers don't get him. Badly.

SAUTO 12-10-2012 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJizzles (Post 9197986)
Wait, wha?

What did I miss?

It's in the article. Basically said they can't depend on a year like last year again
Posted via Mobile Device

SAUTO 12-10-2012 08:31 PM

Edit: a flukey 2012 like the o's
Posted via Mobile Device

ShowtimeSBMVP 12-10-2012 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JASONSAUTO (Post 9197931)
Love how rany kicked o's douchebag in the face
Posted via Mobile Device

Get to .500 before you talk shit.


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