LNBS: The case for Bob Sutton
 

2017: 15th ppg
2016: 7th ppg.
2015: 3ppg
2014: 2nd pg
2013: 5th ppg

I know we all have our pitch forks out. The Titans did not punt the 2nd half of the game. The first half we kicked ass until..... Chris Jones went out.

The defense sucked ass most of the year until December when Jones finally put it together. We missed Berry immensely. I get it coaches are paid to coach the guys they have. Without Jones and Nunes-Roaches in the playoffs we suffered immensely.

I still think Bob can get the job done. We need 1 more CB and a denfensive lineman.

Flame away.

I think our defense was excellent from 2014-2016. He's being scapegoated.

But 2017, he looked lost. I think our Defense was schemed and he couldn't adjust out of it.

Unlike others, I think he did well in KC. But it's time to move on from him. Reid has a lot of familiarity with Double A gap blitz and it seems to be a hot defense right now, so I'm good with that direction.

Like Bob said in the RR... Star lotulelei hits free agency. He's also mormon so Reid approves.

Star will get Suh money no?

Interesting take but wouldn't be moving on for the sake of moving on? With no Berry, Murray looked pretty lost at times. We didn't have a #2 CB until Revis got here and then we played much better.

We could do a lot worse. Bur I feel like we get picked apart by slants and the dpi/opi rules put us at a huge disadvantage. We're a disaster on 3rd downs. We used to blitz 1/3 of the time but somewhere Sutton decided to keep with constant 3 man rush. Berry helps. Adding talent helps, but it just seems this year our scheme has limitations. The Ryan defense seems less hot. The hotter defense seems to be 4-3 that mixes up pressure packages, most that seem to use the double A gap blitz. Since that's the defense reid started with, the idea is really intriguing. We can run that out of a 3-4, but if there was ever a thought to move to a 4-3 base, we are also in a cap position to do that too. If 2 possible hires are spagnuolo or Adam Zimmer, both would be upgrades

Counter argument: 2 of the 4 worst collapses in playoff history are at least partially attributed to Bob Sutton. Do not pass go, do not collect a playoff win, straight to the choking booth with you.

He has pics of the Hunts in Drag...

No, just no **** Bob Sutton. The dude can't make adjustments. We get gashed on the left where zombo is. What do we do leave two down lineman and even worse then that he has them line up on Justin Houston side.

I feel confident that if the resources from cutting Hali and DJ, possibly getting rid of Logan and Ford can be used wisely in FA Sutton will be fine.

This. I think he had a lot planned and it all went to waste with Berry. This is not an excuse for his inability to adjust his scheme when guys go down. But for the past 4 years now he's fielded a pretty ****ing decent defense and I think it's stupid to start claiming that he's an awful DC now.

I think he's at or above league average. You could do a lot worse. Regardless I'm not going to cry if he's here next year but I also won't shed a tear if he isn't.

Agreed.

All this Sutton talk should've been resolved mere seconds after that Colts game.

His fault or not, an example had to be made, but it wasn't.

Joshua. Graham.

Sutton is not Greg Robinson, but he is becoming equally frustrating.

I agree, those two massive playoff losses are all I need to see. Thanks Bob, but see ya.

Additionally, every loss seems the same to me. You see it coming a million miles away. For the longest time we blamed the offense for kicking too many FGs, but we have a defense that can't get a stop when it actually matters.

Maybe Marcus will stick him during the offseason

That's another thing. Marcus Peters had to go completely off the rails before anything was done to discipline him. There's a serious lack of accountability on that side of the ball. The tackling has gotten worse and worse each year, the young players are at best stagnating, and a couple have regressed, the older players who Sutton relied on are aging, and nothing is really being done about it.

Stats are fine, I get it. I only know what my eyes tell me. His defenses aren’t very tough and always give up critical first downs and key third down plays. There is no way I trust a Sutton defense in a key situation. They rely too much on turnovers which are unreliable at times.

No one fears our defense.

I am tired of DB's playing 10 yards off of the WR on 3rd and 7.

I am tired of Sutton not making any adjustments and calling the same defense over and over again expecting different results.

Our 3rd down defense was the worst in the NFL, and it killed us in the playoff game.

Bob Sutton's defense routinely gives up a first down on 3rd and 10, 3rd and 12.....etc.

When you cannot stop anyone on 3rd and long, let along 3rd and anything else, you need to make changes.

He should be fired from a season of complete misuse of our $130m pass rusher.

*franchise pass rusher needs restructured or traded. Not worth the coin.

His defenses always looks soft and they have dropped in the ppg stat you're using every year since 2014. That's one of the few defensive stats that KC looks good in. Other threads talk about a divorce between coaches and QB's after 5 years if not successful, I think the same can be said about defensive schemes. After 5 years other teams have figured it out and got film on every variant. It's time to give other offenses something else to figure out.

Increased PPG allowed every year.

Two of the worst blown leads in the history of the NFL. Consistently in the bottom 5 in yards allowed per game and 1st downs allowed.

Enough said, make the change.

Three man fronts against 3rd an short...
Not moving our best coverage back (Peters) to match up against the oppositions best receiver...
Thinking that Hali has anything left in the tank and relying on him too much...
Not being able to scheme around critical injuries to key players, i.e. Berry...
Bend, and bend, and bend, and bend and hope you don't break before creating a turnover...


Like the old saying goes; "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

Dorsey took the fall for this, and he was a big reason why the defense sucked.

I had been an ardent Sutton supporter until the end of this year.

Maybe someone like Sorter who knows the x's and o's 99% better than the rest of the board can give some insight, but it seemed to me like he stayed in nickle and dime packages even when we were getting absolutely gashed by the run. I have no clue why he didn't change it up.

I'm not sure what to think. The D seemed to get better with the addition of Revis the last quarter of the season. Does he really just need a player or two, or is he stubborn to a fault on scheme. I don't know.

I wish more announcers were like Romo and could explain what is going on and why things are working or not working.

2017: 15th ppg
2016: 7th ppg.
2015: 3ppg

I see a pattern here..and it's not good

It is pathetic watching elements of the fanbase try to defend and justify continued mediocrity.

Bob Sutton should be fired... case closed.

To be fair I think we all know now that losing Eric Berry this season hurt this defense a lot more than anyone expected.

You look at the Legion Of Boom when one of their star players goes down whether it is Kam, Thomas or Sherman - the defense isn't the same. Defense isn't like offense when it comes to injuries. It's a very hard in today's NFL to have a good defense if one of your star players goes down for a significant amount of time.

Giving up two of the worst playoff comebacks of all time negates the stats. I don't think any fanbase would disagree and wouldn't be calling for his head at this point.

I fear since Sutton still has his job at this point he's staying.

And one of my biggest frustrations with this organization is realized once again, they stick with something that's broke way too long.

It's not my favorite, but that is how Peters plays CB. He reads the eyes of the QB and pays more attention to the backfield than the receiver. That's what makes Peters so good as a ballhawk. Lining up off the LOS is playing to his strength.

His "bend but don't break" defense finally broke. Time to move on.

Well they did support Herm cause they knew he would fix the defense.

So why does this surprise you?

You can't deny he had a lot to do with getting us into the playoffs.

Not too long ago this fan base would have killed for a DC that could hold teams to 22 points in the postseason.

I'm not willing to even look at that case, let alone open it and look inside. Sutton's tenure with the Chiefs be what it may, he's done here for me.

There is a partial Twitter chain below showing how we were in the completely wrong defensive set when TN ran for that 35 yard touchdown. It was something even highschool coaches know how to avoid. Even if it was a one-time error, it's inexcusable at the NFL level.

Click the tweet for the full chain and description.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Here&#39;s all you need to know about Bob Sutton. This is the screenshot of Derrick Henry&#39;s 35-yd TD run, presnap. Get ready for a quick thread <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Chiefs?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Chiefs</a> <a href="https://t.co/m2mGzROrNH">pic.twitter.com/m2mGzROrNH</a></p>&mdash; Matt Verderame (@MattVerderame) <a href="https://twitter.com/MattVerderame/status/950833114078736384?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 9, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">But here&#39;s the best part... THE BEST PART. Sutton has Eric Murray and Daniel Sorensen in the box, apparently to cover Luke Stocker and Derrick Henry should they release. Those two, channeling their inner Jerry Rice all year, combined for 12 catches. Stocker had ONE.</p>&mdash; Matt Verderame (@MattVerderame) <a href="https://twitter.com/MattVerderame/status/950833786912169985?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 9, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Still holding out hope that the two guys who probably make sense for the Chiefs, spags and Adam Zimmer, technically aren't on the market. If Minnesota loses and spags misses the Giants HC opportunity, maybe we'll see some momentum.

Times are different now. We've had a taste of some minor success, and this is no longer acceptable.

Forget the stats, Sutton just misuses his players far too often. That is the ultimate red flag.

He needs to go.

Man..forget Sutton for a second. This defense needs a lot of work in personnel. Dorsey really ****ed up this defense.

2 DL, ILB, maybe OLB, #2 CB and S. Big questions there.

Now we see why Dorsey was shown the door.

You have some valid points, however relying on Hali might be overstating since he played in only 5 games.
My biggest concern is his seeming inability to adjust to the opposing offense, particularly in the 2nd half. With a 21-3 lead at halftime, you know the opposing OC had to make a change and Sutton didn't. When you allow TD drives of 91, 62, and 80 yards in the 2nd half, you've gone to sleep.

Here are the other relevant rankings:

2017:
- Passing yds: 29th
- Rushing yds: 25th

2016:
- Passing yds: 18th
- Rushing yds: 26th

2015:
- Passing yds: 9th
- Rushing yds: 25th

2014:
- Passing yds: 31st
- Rushing yds: 5th

2013:
- Passing yds: 7th
- Rushing yds: 11th


The "bend but don't break" approach isn't sustainable, and things are trending the wrong way since 2015. It's time for a change, and a move away from the Ryan system.

Horrible. As I posted in another thread very rarely do SB winning teams have rankings as low as the bolded parts whether that be the offense or defense. Our defense has got to better...

What the **** happened between 2014 and 2015? Run defense just fell off a ****ing cliff.

Off the top of my head, Houston and Poe were hurt

Poe hurt his back.

Makes sense. Looks like we need a dominant NT in the trenches to have any shot with this D. Logan just won't cut it. Hopefully we can swing for Pennel.

Don't forget DeVito. Him and Poe were monsters against the run, and Hali was younger, he was always good against the run

He is a giant choke artist. His defenses always give up the crucial first down, TD, etc.

Jay Howard is another player we lost from that squad.

Run defense has never been respectable. Move to the 4-3 base and get a new coordinator

Doubt it I don't think he's made the pro bowl and he had that injury last year. Give him a 2 year contract and make him prove his worth. He's a solid fattie to help the run D

The Poe injury is 100% on Sutton for overworking him

I was fine with that in 2015 because teams were terrified about passing against us. The big difference is pressure. We had 47 sacks and 22 INTs that year. That is outstanding. Sutton used to blitz on about 1/3 of the snaps, now we're one of the lowest blitzing teams in the league.

28th in total yards
29th against the pass
25th against the run
Slid from top 5 to #15 in points allowed in the second half of the season
Finished with 26 takeaways, 8 of which came against Denver. Apart from Denver's suckage, they're probably bottom half of the league in takeaways too.
Gave up over 200 rushing yards in the playoff game against a bad offense.

There's really very little the defense was doing right. The only possible way to defend them is the PPG stat, which is more connected to ball control on the part of the offense than anything positive the JAG defense was doing.

Can we put a scarlet letter or something on anyone who thinks Sutton should return...?

He's responsible for two of the biggest defensive meltdowns in NFL playoff history within the span of 5 years. There is no case for Bob Sutton.

Yards don't matter.

Sutton sucks.

I'd love to see what Brent Venables could do in the pros.

I just keep thinking how the Chiefs screwed me out of an unbelievable weekend of football.

Atlanta @ Philly
Chiefs @ Pats
Jax @ Pitt
NO @ Minny

That would have great.

Thanks Bob Sutton!

I say stay 3-4. 4 -3 gets more un athletic with a bunch of extra fatties. I would rather see linebackers get after the QB than the d linemen. Plus you have more linebacker types on special teams. That said we need to stop the run I agree.

Here is my case for Sutton

https://goo.gl/images/2PpiLr

Dilly dilly

The defense plays with little emotion, edge or fire...and that's a lot of what defense is about. Enough said, he needs to go.

Yards are what separates the opposing team from the red zone nitwit

4-3 has changed. They are finding ways to find pressure packages just as effective as 3-4. The increasingly popular double A gap blitz featured by Jim Johnson years ago is a good example and it's a defense that relies on sending a lot of pressure from your LBs. These days, fronts don't matter all that much anyway since defenses are flexing the fronts and they play a ton of snaps in nickel anyway.

How about the fact that we gave up the most 1st downs in the NFL?

Points though

Points are the biggest factor obviously, but when you play bend dont break like that it's gonna skew the amount of possessions and limit points. Plus the CHiefs had the leading rusher in the NFL so offensively they hid the D a bit.

The defense just isn't aggressive enough.

Not covering for Sutton, but I can see why he plays bend don’t break. We had no pass rush most of the year, our 2nd CB was getting burned deep repeatedly and our safeties couldn’t tackle.

Idk that any coordinator could be aggressive under those circumstances.

Hard to be aggressive when you got Jarvis Jenkins on the Dline, Frank Zombo rushing, Mitchell covering with a lost Eric Murray.

Sure personnel was a problem. But you're never gonna have 11 great players.

So wouldn't that make it Dorsey's fault?

He probably shouldn't have waited and then gave mega contracts to Houston and Berry.

Let's be honest though 2017 never mattered and his picks would indicate that (giving up what he did for Mahomes and drafting Tanoh) they were hamstrung by cap space. Yes you can pin that on Dorsey.

#26 in opponent yards per play
#26 in opponent third down conversion percentage
#23 in opponent fourth down conversions

I mean, all up and down the sheet, this is a bottom third defense hiding behind a ball control offense.

Even though the offense managed to take care of the ball and run it well enough to be middle of the pack in time of possession, the defense still can't get off the field on third or fourth down, gave up the most first downs in the NFL as you said, and is prone to break in the critical spot at the end of a close game.

The offense was #10 in points scored in the 4th quarter, the defense was #25 in points allowed in the 4th quarter. This defense doesn't finish games.

They give the other team massive amounts of first downs and yards by any measure, they can't get off the field so they give the other team many more chances to beat them than they should otherwise have, and they wear down at the end of games and end up breaking when it matters.

And yet they were what, 3 plays from having HFA thru the AFC?

They'll reload and be good again next year with the chance to be great in the near future.

'Nuff said, really. The defense being a handicap is the story of the 2017 Chiefs.

I don't see how the same people who hate Alex Smith can defend Bob Sutton keeping his job. Both have been serviceable and we can thank them for their efforts over the last 5 years but they've had their chances and it's time to go. The difference between the two is that Bob Sutton's last year sucked by any and every measurable statistic possible.

For a board that wants to run Smith out of town for the fact he can't get it done in the playoffs, Sutton is guilty of the same sins.

I am okay with running both of them out of town.

Exactly how I feel. This defense doesn't pass the eye test for me. Honestly, it never has.

Yeah that's why we beat Pittsburgh right?

Chiefs for the past few years have got whipped upfront that's not scheme. Pittsburgh and Tennessee's offensive lines were just flat out better than our front.

When you're constantly rushing 3 then yes, it is scheme.

I was speaking about the run defense and no you can't blitz like people want to when Terrance Mitchell and Eric Murray are your secondary.