Brown or Fish?
 

I thought I’d pose this question for the Chiefs left tackle position because I’m curious to know your opinions and how you feel who is the better player for the Chiefs when comparing those two players.

I’m disappointed in Orlando Brown so far. He hasn’t been playing up to expectations. No way is he an elite left tackle at least I say this for now because of the way he is playing. Some games he is getting beat like crazy.

Fisher on the other hand, when he was with us was a solid player. I don’t consider Fishers performance to be that of a #1 overall pick like Orlando Pace and he never will be that guy. Yeah he got beat a good handful of games but overall generally speaking he was solid.

What say you? Is there much of a difference between Fishers play in the past compared to Orlando Browns play today? Which performance was better Fisher past performance at LT or Orlando Browns play at LT right now? I don’t know
if I see much of a difference and so I thought I’d ask.

Maybe Fish’s performance in the past might be better?

we shouldn't feel like there are years before we can make it back to the dance, but I feel like that's how we all feel right now. But yeah, sorry to dilute the thread. :(

Well, Brown is definitely not living up to his billing. Not saying that he can't be coached up, but currently I'd rather have Fish.

Would clearly rather have Brown at this stage in their careers.

Browns problem is his weight. He's a frumpy looking dude for his size. If he would lose some weight I think that would help tremendously with this speed rushers around the edge. He doesn't need to be 360 or whatever he's listed at. (says 344 but even that seems low)

Brown was awful yesterday. I know that. Overall it's been a mish mash of results. This is basically a brand new offensive line with a lot of really young guys. People overlook that a bit. When Mahomes emerged, this offensive line was basically a well oiled machine with very good veteran bookend tackles. We didn't have a problem with him dropping back and doing whatever he wanted. It's just gonna take some time. It might fail or it might smooth out. The good news is we haven't signed Brown long term so if he continues to suck we can find someone else next year.

Browns biggest issue is his feet. He does not have the footwork or the foot speed to adjust quickly if the rusher does not take the expected, direct route.

With the way Mahomes tends to drop much further back in the pocket Fish was a better option because he had better footwork and faster feet.

Probably Fish right now although neither are the long-term answer at LT. If we had kept Fisher we wouldn't have had to give up valuable draft capital to acquire Brown. Orlando Brown is not athletic enough to play LT in this offense. That's not going to get better as he ages. I would not give him a contract extension.

wasn't his dad a Huge man. I'm not sure he has grown to full size yet.

That’s a good take. Thank you.

Who do think has the better hands?

Hands don't matter if your footwork sucks and you are out of position.

I've said it from the start - a healthy version of Fisher was almost certainly better than Brown will be for us. Brown's just a different kind of player and not an ideal fit here.

But that version of Fish wasn't available. Guy got hurt. And you can see he's still not healthy in Indy.

Fisher was criminally underrated by most here. He was a very good player and damn near perfect fit for this team. Brown is probably a good player, but nowhere near as good a fit.

But he was also probably as good an option as we had available to us in 2021. It just is what it is. The injury to Fisher combined with Schwartz's back problems just couldn't have been anticipated and they happened at one time. A Remmers/Niang/Brown trio is about as good as could've been expected given that Pro Bowl bookends of the OL collapsed simultaneously.

And this is the part that’s hard to swallow.

If Browns play is either worse, similar to Fish or if they were simply better off with keeping Fish and keeping draft picks that just hurts knowing that they gave up all that capital for a player who was expected to be an improvement but clearly has not been that.

Not a good situation for a team that could use those draft picks to help rebuild. They may have to rebuild? But of course at the time the Chiefs made the trade they weren’t thinking this. But it’s just interesting to see given the state of this team
now, those draft picks could’ve been savoured, used and possibly handy?

This isn't the question asked, though. You're creating a false choice whereby 'keep a healthy Eric Fisher' is an option.

It wasn't. Your options are a compromised Fisher and a 1st (let's say Joe Tryon for the sake of debate) or Brown, Bolton and about $10 million in cap space in 2021.

I think the latter is pretty obviously preferable given Fisher's performance coming off his injury this year. He's just not the same player and there was no reason to expect he would be in 2021.

Brown has pedigree. He will grow into the job.

He has heavy feet. He might not.

But that doesn't mean it wasn't a wholly acceptable risk to have taken.

He was a perfect fit in Baltimore where rushers can't blast upfield because their style and Jackson's speed will take advantage of them. He was in a situation where his weakness was disguised by system and surrounding talent.

That's just not the case here. In Kansas City his weaknesses aren't just exposed, they're highlighted. I'm not sure it's fair to say he'll just 'grow into the job'. There's a fair chance he just won't.

He does not and will not. He is playing out of his natural position.

In their prime? Fish without question. But that guy is gone. Given the situation (especially cap implications), Brown is probably still the better choice.

But I wish there was a third option.

Isn't there a large age difference between them? You take the younger player.

Brown is a pretty good RT. He needs to understand he's a liability at LT. If he wants to stay there, he needs to play better. The issue is, who else plays LT? Do we draft a LT next year? Move Niang to LT?

Same thing with Jones at DE. If he wants to play there, he can't make every opposing tackle look like Anthony Munoz.

It wasn't just Fisher it was Schwartz too.
Both of them on the field at the same time. Patrick was obviously more comfortable with those two. Schwartz was underrated and underappreciated. Dude was a solid RT, especially going up against the best in the league.

Brown needs to shift back to RT and we need to sign/draft an LT.

Brown is fine if you aren’t trying to drop back 10 steps. Go back to the ball control 10-12 play drives. Cut out the turnovers and we’d be fine.

The team has proven they can play ball control already this year. They just refused to do so yesterday, especially once we were down 14-0. Brown is a plus run blocker and should be sufficient on the quick stuff. The problem is when teams can predict that Mahomes is going to drop deep. Brown is easily beaten on those reps. The team needs to reevaluate the offensive scheme and change up priorities on receiving routes much more than they need a new LT.

Here's the sad truth.

Put Brown at LT in for SB LIV and ask the question -- "Do we have time to run Wasp?"

And the answer is no.

This cannot be the same team we're used to with Brown. And it's not because he's a bad player, he's just not the right kind of player for that sort of approach. He can still be a quality LT for us but Mahomes needs to build trust with him and we need to do more things that cover for his athletic limitations.

Could the Chiefs have still won that Super Bowl with Brown instead of Fisher? Yeah - but they couldn't have done it the way they did. And it seems like they're still trying to.

Wasn't Fisher holding on that play? Or are you saying Brown is too slow to even get his hands on someone to hold them?

First thing I'd do is ask him to drop 30 lbs. No way he should be playing at 380.

What about a brown fish?


https://www.grahamowengallery.com/fi...t-portrait.jpg

Or try Niang at LT this season.

Because Niang was doing so well at an 'easier' position.

I think he spent $100,000 of his signing bonus on BBQ and mac n cheese.

Chiefs lead the NFL in pressures allowed

Brown is one and done. Square peg round hole. His feet look like he's wearing cement blocks for shoes. They knew he would struggle hence the lack of an extension. Hell, he even admitted that he doesn't have the best footwork and relies on his arms/upper body too much. We move him to right tackle and he plays well, then ask him to stay there next season? - He probably walks unless we pay him left tackle money which is stupid.

Yesterday we could have Anthony Munoz in and it wouldn't have mattered when you are down that much and have to pass every play. Pass rush when that is all you have to do on the D Line is the easiest thing in the world for D Lineman and rush backers.

What LT talent will be available in the middle positions of the next draft? I assume we'll pick in the 9-20 range.

How is this not a sex thread?

Fisher was underrated and Brown is not Fisher. Brown maybe could be Schwartz. He's just not nimble enough to be a LT. Considering we had zero point shit in the way of starting tackles at the end of last season, he was the best option available (see the teenage spluge-fest in the 1st few pages of his orriginal thread). As far as "valuable draft capital", trading the #31 pick for that additional 2nd rounder looks pretty good right now. Would we have taken either Bolton or Creed at #31? Naw, we would have had WR #217 there.

Wasn't his father a career RT though?

PFF is never ever wrong.

Brown:70.9
Fisher: 58.6

Exactly. This seems to be a huge part of the problem.

Brown: 502 snaps, 4 penalties, 3 sacks
Fisher: 366 snaps, 6 penalties, 4 sacks

Look at our record when Fish started with Mahomes


/thread

I think DJLN nailed it perfectly. Brown, as he is right now, is a better choice than Fisher as he is right now. We can't compare him with a pre injury Fisher, as that ship sailed in the AFCCG.

That's also with pre Achilles Fisher though.

The "official" site shows him at 363, which is still too fat in my book. If he wants to be a Chief next year, he'll have to play RT and take RT money. Otherwise, buh-bye and don't expect any other team to beat down your door after watching more than 30 minutres of film at LT.

Good point. Since you’re living in the past, look how many more sacks we had with Derrick Thomas! Our record was better too.

No it wasn't

If he can't block Jones or Clark in practice, he has no business being a starting LT in the NFL. That should be the test this week. The Titans 3rd string tackles looked like Hall of Famers yesterday.

Wish they would have tried to hire Dan Roushar away from the ‘Aints. Or someone of his caliber to coach up the o-line. Asst HC or whatever it would have taken. The current coaching staff was not up to having this revamped o-line ready.


https://www.neworleanssaints.com/tea...er/dan-roushar

Brown ****ing sucks. He can't block speed. He's just big as hell with long arms. Veach ****ed up and wasted another first 2 years in a row. Clyde is another waste of a first.

Wrong. While Brown hasn't turned out like we hoped, he was still the best option available at the time. Considering we got Baltimore's 2nd rounder (who ended up being Bolton) out of it we were able to come out on top with Bolton and Humphrey.

Since you consider the use of that 1st on Brown, who would you have taken with the #31 pick? Also between Bolton and Humphrey, who would you sacrifice as we would not have gotten both?

This means we don't have to worry about Brown and CEH now.

It’s not just Browns handling of pass rushers, it’s his complete lack of mobility that’s killing this offense. The reason Reid and Dorsey took Fish #1 is because he can handle speed rushers, but could move extremely well. That’s critical in an offense that likes to attack horizontally.

We just can’t run a lot of the types of plays Reid likes to run without a LT that can get out in space to block LBers and DBs. Brown can’t change his spots, either. He is what he is.

Even though it sucks to say that.

If we could go back in time, the universe wanted us to sign Trent Williams. His salary would be Beown plus Reed (who hasn’t been a difference maker, anyway). That was absolutely a deal we needed to get signed.

Silverback
Thuney
Humphrey
Smith
Remmers

Mahomes would have time to scan the field and wouldn’t be making the rushed mistakes he’s making consistently by not having any time.

Looks like we'll be picking #1 next year so we can draft the best Fatty

I'm just not a fan of revisionist history exercises like this, its pointless

Fish is gone, and Silverdick was never here... we have what we have, and need to focus on what we can do with them IMO

Last year, we lost all sorts of Olineman and still won. After we lost Fisher, we've never been the same.

Fisher is able to move with Mahomes, Brown can't.


No-brainer, Fisher.

No Gaz or Willie Roaf options? I need a hug.

Fisher was injured and there was no guarantee he would be the same player after his injury. You are making it seem like we cut a healthy Fisher for Brown.

And we would still be a bad football team because this team has no pass rush and I'm thankful we didnt sign William's because 25 million a year tied into a middle 30s LT isnt what this team needs. Thankfully we will be able to shed alot of the deadweight big money guys this off season.

BTW Williams has been hurt already this year which isnt unusual for him. I just dont get where this idea that Williams is the missing piece.

The question posed is Fisher's play in the past vs Brown's current play. The answer is undoubtedly Fisher and it isn't even close.

If you were to ask me now? It doesn't much matter. Fisher isn't 100% and therefore playing about as slow as Brown. That doesn't change the fact that Brown doesn't fit this offense at LT. I don't even think he's a fit at RT.

Probably looking at Nick Petit-Frere (Ohio State), Trevor Penning (Northern Iowa), and Rasheed Walker (Penn State).

Looks to be some decent RT prospects on day 2 in Abraham Lucas (Washington State), Obinna Eze (Texas Christian, might be a LT), and Braxton Jones (Southern Utah).

Why has no one mentioned giving a call to Mitchell Schwartz

And any other left tackle who could fill a spot

After seeing Fisher Sunday night get his ass handed to him repeatedly by the 49ers, it is obvious he is nowhere close to where he was pre-injury.

The coaching staff and Mahomes need to fit the scheme to Brown's strengths and limitations as long as he's our LT. He's still going to make mistakes just like all players do, but there's enough tape on what Brown can and can't do in a Chiefs uniform that there's no excuse for Mahomes to be in as many dangerous positions as he was on Sunday. He's going to get killed if that continues.

Fisher, in his best years, had quick enough feet to keep up with quick edge rushers taking long bends and arcs towards the QB. Brown simply cannot do it. Fit the scheme to the players, not the players to the scheme.

I know we all love hypotheticals here, but what the hell does this even matter, Fish ain’t here anymore. How many years did I listen to the “I hate Fish” crowd and now that he’s gone and Brown hasn’t been as good as billed, we’re all like Fish was soooo good! We are the worst at letting the past go.

I agree with this post.

Brown is built for RT. He has the rest of the year to prove me wrong, but I suspect that this LT experiment is a failure. That's fine. You want two elite tackles; however, if you extend him, it needs to be to lock down the right side for the rest of his career.

LMAO No tackle can block speed consistently when they know you are going to pass, they line up 2 yards outside and are taught to edge rush to 10-12 yards against the Chiefs because Mahomes floats back every ****ing time. We all love Mahomes, but this is the biggest adjustment defenses have made. Against Mahomes in passing downs their edge players are coached to take an angle that's way deeper than normal and this needs to corrected.

Because hes an old RIGHT tackle with a serious back issue who couldnt play for an entire season last year. He's done, let it go.

Schwartz weighs 250 now.


Let the past go.

Isn't necessarily the worst thing. Maybe gives us a discount on his next contract. At the very least it won't be LT money.

It's too bad he can't block Clark and Jones week in and week out

It helps me to think of us having drafted Creed Humphrey in the first round and trading a 2nd for Orlando Brown.

Brown is a dismal failure at LT. Dismal.

He's closer to Jordan Black than Fish.

Or find Tackles that can block better and let our special QB do special things his way. Orlando Brown can hardly block an edge rusher no matter the splits. All he's got is that push, every time, once an edge guy blows by him. Dude is too slow for anything else. He's no LT and if he must play tackle, he's a RT at best but probably better suited for Guard than he is Tackle.

But WTF do I know? (I knew enough to raise an eyebrow at several of our recent moves / decisions, just like most here)

Russel Okung can’t be worse than Brown, can he?

The Titans figured it out. All 3 tackles Brown, Niang and Remmers are on the slow side. By getting a 1 on 1 on Remmers and driving him back into PMII and having the other speed rusher aim 10yds deep and run around Brown they could flush PMII out of the pocket right into the other guy damn near every time. Hopefully they figure out that the short pass game and get PMII to stop dropping 7-10 steps and step up in the pocket and get the ball out of his hands quicker.

Again, they are coaching their Edge rushers to speed rush on obvious passing downs due to Mahomes floating back in the pocket. This doesn't allow him to get out and do those special things... Mahomes needs to step up and then go outside and do those special things. Teams have figured out that he is stuck in reverse in his drop and hates to step up. Until he does this, our tackles, as any tackle, will get beat more than not on that deep angle rush that they normally wash by deep.

Alright, thank you for clarifying this with me.

Let’s take this further, Fisher is playing albeit not 100%. Fine.

But, Fish knows this offense and there is a great possibility he is a better fit than Brown right now.

So, banged up Fisher + knows the Chiefs offense + better fit than Brown, how much of a difference or upgrade is that over Brown right now? Is it marginal? Solid? Immense?

Makes me think maybe Chiefs would’ve been better off keeping Fish? He was probably their Chiefs best option?

It’s painful to swallow seeing all the compensation Chiefs gave up for Brown. I think it’s possible they lost that trade. But then it all depends on how those draft picks pan out for Baltimore? Maybe I’m judging too early on this trade? I just don’t like the feeling of this trade. That what my gut tells me. This is a trade that hurts a rebuild which is what I think the Chiefs need to do.

I can regurgitate hot takes all day too, but I know what I see...Our Tackles have protection issues with simple drop backs, especially Brown. If he was quicker it would severely help things immensely. Dude gets beat on the first move all the time. It's pathetic.