Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut
Hakeem was an amazing defender - no question.
By dWAR he was the 4th best of all time. That said, Shaq was 21st. He was by no means a slouch and was absolutely an impact 2-way player.
I simply don't agree that those Magic teams are obviously better without Shaq than the Rockets would've been without Olajuwon. And while you want to cite one year where Olajuwon carried his team to a title (a year I've spoken to), I think you're also overstating his teammates SIGNIFICANTLY in 99-00.
I mean sure, he had Kobe, but Kobe was 21 and nothing resembling the monster he eventually became. He was a volume scorer with no real outside shot to speak of. And his #3 option was fat Glen Rice who was washed. And the cast only gets worse from there. Beyond those 2, that team's worse than TODAY'S Lakers. It's damn ugly.
The 99/00 Lakers weren't any better without Shaq than that 93-94 team is without Olajuwon. And with that squad the Lakers won 67 games. And his playoff performances that year (and the following season) were absolutely epic. 30+ PPG and 15+ RPG. Shaq was absolutely the guy who fueled that 99-00 run and largely 00-01 as well.
And you want to note that Olajuwon had inferior teammates when he won his rings (even if I don't entirely agree), is it not worth pointing out that Shaq won twice as many of them? Or that while you cite all of Olajuwon's All-Defensive accolades in comparison to Shaqs, how about the fact that Shaq has more All-NBA nods than Olajuwon? You want to talk about 2-way players, that would seem to support O'Neal being the better one, no?
I just don't think you're holding the two guys to the same standard. I don't think Olajuwon was a better two-way player - simply a different one. He was an elite defender and very good scorer. Shaq was a very good defender and an elite offensive weapon.
And I think when you look at their combined totals, it bears that out.
Shaq: 1207 career games, 181.7 WS, 75.5 VORP
Dream: 1238 career games, 162.8 WS, 74.2 VORP
If you want to compare the respective 'peak' periods we're talking about above, it's the same story:
99-01 Shaq: 33.5 WAR, VORP of 16.1
92-94 Dream: 31.1 WAR, VORP of 15.1
Hakeem is a great player, both players came about their greatness in different ways, but in the end I think Shaq was just a LITTLE better. And yeah, a lot of that came not through hard work or skill, but by winning the genetic lottery. But that's basketball, man. Hell, that sports writ large.
If I could have either guy on any team I build for the duration of their careers, I'm going to take Shaq.
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You make some good points. However, in regards to All-NBA teams, Hakeem had Ewing and Robinson for competition. Shaq really had no competition by the late 1990's and 2000's for All-NBA teams. The other league centers were JAGs compared to their predecessors.
Also, Shaq having twice as many rings doesn't move the needle for me. The Lakers dynasty had two of the best offensive players in the league. Plus a stronger supporting cast than the Rockets in the mid 90's. Guys like Fisher, Fox, Horry, Harper were great defenders. Phil Jackson as coach. Also, Shaq's title in Miami was him playing second fiddle to Wade, who went off in those Finals. None of those teams win without Shaq of course. Point is, he SHOULD have won more titles than Hakeem. The Rockets were not set up for a dynasty. Drexler arrived when he was past his prime. Barkley/Pippen were older superstars by the late 90's.
In the end, it's close. As stated, I rank them both around 11-15. Not much difference there.