Quote:
Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco
But it's not the same coach. Same person. But not the same coach. Dan Reeves was not a static human-being and the league changed from 1989 to 1998 and Dan changed as well. He said as much in interviews.
Shanahan and Elway were like salt and pepper, they always get passed together. The difference is John was on the field and touched the ball. Just stop with the nonsensical arguments thinking you are a competent researcher. Your premise is badly configured, ergo, your results are badly interpreted.
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The way the league played did change, but not as much as you're making it out to be in the few years between Reeves time in Denver and Atlanta. Did coaching schemes shift that dramatically from 92 to 97? Or from 81 to 83? Not enough to make this dramatic change that you're attempting to display.
By the way, this still doesn't resolve Craig Morton being better with Reeves in 81, or is that 2 years too far apart too? Was Reeves a completely different person then too?
This is such a stupid argument to make. No shit. Everyone grows and changes. That's called being a human being. Systems and coaches change, BUT they don't completely overhaul overnight. Core principles tend to remain in coaches schemes and systems. Its the closest thing that you can get to a control in this scenario. I'm not implying that it's entirely the same, I am saying though that if Dan Reeves can get better numbers out of quarterbacks who shouldn't be able to hold Elway's jock strap, what does that say about Elway?
The arguments I'm making are anything but nonsensical. At least it's not the drivel of "You have to had watch him" (Most of us here did) or the sheer stupidity of viewing Wins almost exclusively as a QB stat. I literally have seen nothing else from Broncos fans on this matter. 5 Super Bowls (in a historically bad conference), 2 SB Wins (Under a coach/RB tandem that was phenomenal), Lots of regular season wins. 4th quarter comebacks. That's literally all that has been brought to the table from you all here. Hell, if you use just those, he's closer to Eli Manning and Rapistberger than Joe Cool.
There are so many fallacies in the statements you're making on here its actually kind of laughable. I find it funny the guy who has provided no data is attempting to tell me I'm not a competent researcher. You're right, I'm only providing some degree of a control group in football statistics in regards to a coaches scheme impact upon a player. It's not perfect by any means, but it is an acceptable criteria in terms of comparison. When looking at things like this you can never create a perfect comparison, as there will always be questions of scheme impacting players, but its a valid concern and criticism. Acting as if it has no bearing in the discussion is intellectually bankrupt and burying your head in the sand.
Data drives all. Numbers don't lie. People do. Eyewitness accounts do. Delusional Donkey fans do. Delusional Chiefs fans do. But numbers don't.
I still think Elway was damn good with Shanahan, especially with Terrell Davis getting the rock, But he's still massively overrated.
You can't be statistically worse in several important metrics that define QB success than a sizable amount of his same-era counterparts and somehow just be better. The world doesn't work that way.