Busted ankle and Opioids

[Holladay]

My big dogs were playing with me while I was on a sheet of ice. Boom goes the dynamite!

Surgery, plates and screws. I have a bottle of Oxycodone 5 mg x 42 pills. 1 pill every 4 hrs.

The day after op, I was popping them like candy. Helped a bit. 3 days after, 1 per 3.5 hrs. 6 days post op I will take 2-3 for the whole day. Wakeup, Bedtime and a misc.

So the question is how does a person become addicted to these suckers?

I still have 5 more weeks in the cast, then 2-4 in a boot.

Tomorrow, I'll see if just ibuprofen 200 mg will do.

Do they use get high? Trips? Or is there pseudo pain that people use to feel better?

[frozenchief]

Originally Posted by SupDock

so your claim is that you do not risk a physical opiate addiction unless you take the medication for months? That's just completely false

Here is a CDC article addressing this
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/66/wr/mm6610a1.htm

No. My claim is that the risk of addiction from taking meds for a short time after a surgery is quite small and that a longer time is usually (emphasis on usually) necessary to develop a physical addiction.

[Simply Red]

Originally Posted by TribalElder

Don't take oxy, it's heroin

you should request something else

Heroin is better - just gets expensive...

[SupDock]

Originally Posted by frozenchief

No. My claim is that the risk of addiction from taking meds for a short time after a surgery is quite small and that a longer time is usually (emphasis on usually) necessary to develop a physical addiction.

Quite small is not accurate, check out the link. And this is what you said

"Second are those who develop physical addiction. These people start with some kind of injury and wind up needing meds to manage their pain. If your injury was relatively recent, this is way too early to say this is the case. This type of addiction takes months, if not longer"

That is incorrect, and my opinion dangerous, advice.

From the CDC article
The probability of long-term opioid use increases most sharply in the first days of therapy, particularly after 5 days or 1 month of opioids have been prescribed, and levels off after approximately 12 weeks of therapy. The rate of long-term use was relatively low (6.0% on opioids 1 year later) for persons with at least 1 day of opioid therapy, but increased to 13.5% for persons whose first episode of use was for ≥8 days and to 29.9% when the first episode of use was for ≥31 days.


I hate to derail the thread but this is important to me

[displacedinMN]

Originally Posted by SupDock

Most offices cannot accept these meds. They need to go to a law enforcement office or pharmacy with a controlled substance drop box

I did that with a lot of things.

[aces and eights]

I really thought this was an Eric Berry tell all.

[JakeF]

Originally Posted by Holladay

My big dogs were playing with me while I was on a sheet of ice. Boom goes the dynamite!

Surgery, plates and screws. I have a bottle of Oxycodone 5 mg x 42 pills. 1 pill every 4 hrs.

The day after op, I was popping them like candy. Helped a bit. 3 days after, 1 per 3.5 hrs. 6 days post op I will take 2-3 for the whole day. Wakeup, Bedtime and a misc.

So the question is how does a person become addicted to these suckers?

I still have 5 more weeks in the cast, then 2-4 in a boot.

Tomorrow, I'll see if just ibuprofen 200 mg will do.

Do they use get high? Trips? Or is there pseudo pain that people use to feel better?

If the pain makes you feel like you aren't taking anything then you won't get addicted. When they start making you feel GOOD then you need to cut it back.

Remember, addiction and physical dependency are different. Addiction is mental, dependency is you body. You can get over physical dependency after a few rough days. It's the addiction you need to avoid. The feeling good is what you want to avoid.

[frozenchief]

Originally Posted by SupDock

so your claim is that you do not risk a physical opiate addiction unless you take the medication for months? That's just completely false

Here is a CDC article addressing this
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/66/wr/mm6610a1.htm

For some reason it posted my answer before I finished and it's just easier to put this in one place. No, my claim is that the risks that someone will develop an addiction to opioids based solely upon a script for post-surgical pain is small, certainly small enough to not be in pain for fear of addiction. The article you supplied actually supports my position in several ways.

First, the article addresses how many people, having started opioids, are still using them a year later. The article notes that about only 6% of people are using opioids a year later. Second, the article just focuses upon use to manage pain and does not focus upon withdrawal symptoms should someone quit. If you need to continue taking the pills because you are still in pain, then I think it's better to keep taking the pills. But if you are taking the pills because it is pleasurable, because you have some psychological need to or you suffer withdrawal symptoms, then it is better to quit taking the medications. The article does not address this distinction.

The article notes that crucial days are the fifth and thirtieth, meaning that continuing to take the meds after those days demonstrates a higher risk (again, not a certainty) of having to continue to use the medications. This makes sense from a pain standpoint: if your body hasn't adjusted after thirty days, then its odds of adjusting are quite low.

One reason I expect we disagree is because we are looking at the data from two different fields of study. In my field of study, mere use a year after an injury would not mean addiction. If someone were in a horrible car crash and crushed several vertebrae, pelvis and legs, I would not be surprised if that person needed pain management for the rest of their life. But that it because of the physical condition of their body, not because they are demonstrating drug-seeking behavior.

One reason for my skepticism is I see DEA agents, the CDC and National Office of Drug Policy (or whatever their name is) put out ads that really do not reflect the reality of recreational/addictive drug use. "One Hit of Meth (or fill in the drug) Will Make You An Addict!!!!" scream the headlines. The reality is far different. Most people don't start recreational drug use by using meth. And most people who are willing to recreationally use meth/heroin/cocaine/oxy have already heavily dabbled in drug use and are thus more at risk for drug-seeking behavior.

One deficiency with the paper you posted is that participants had to not abuse substances for the previous six months. That says to me that the participants in that study are more likely to be using opioids because they actually need pain meds than because they are exhibiting drug-seeking behavior.

To sum, then, I do not think that OP's finishing his script of oxys to address pain after surgery will suddenly convert him into a mindless drug-seeker, destroying his life as he seeks more and more drugs. And I think that our current drug scare about addiction has done more harm than good by causing some people who legitimately are in pain because of injury/accident/surgery to avoid pain meds for fear they will suddenly turn into addicts.

I do recognize that abuse of oxys is higher right now than it has been. By abuse, I mean use of a drug for non-medicinal purposes. Taking 10+ a day is an indication of abuse. Grinding them up and snorting them is an indication of abuse. SMoking them is an indication of abuse. None of these were covered in your article and I seriously doubt that OP will be doing this by the time he finishes his prescription.

Such behavior is occurring more with oxys now because compared to some other drugs, oxys are currently easier to obtain. Demand for recreational drugs is similar to a balloon. It stays constant* while prohibition efforts tend to focus upon one drug at the expense of others. You can think of this as squeezing one end of the balloon. Yes, it will get smaller but the other end will bulge out of your hand. So prohibition enforcement focuses on heroin and meth becuase popular. THey focus on meth and oxys become popular. Oxys are likely to remain popular anyway because they come from pharmaceutical companies and thus their dosage is known and any fillers are safe for human consumption.

Since your article does not address any of those circumstances and appears instead to focus upon those who are legitimately using opioids, I do not find it relevant when discussing whether a short-term use of opioids will create drug-seeking behavior and I therefore stand by my earlier statements.


* since passage of the Harrison Narcotics Act of 1913, about 1.5% of the American population has demonstrated drug-seeking or addictive behavior. THat might rise a bit to 1.7%. Might fall to 1.25%. but its generally been a pretty straight line.

[Fire Me Boy!]

Post surgical Norco 5/325 not doing shit for me. Doc wrote me for the 7.5/325. Hope that helps.

[ShortRoundChief]

I just do crack. Worse case I get some tooth loss and **** a guy named Steve.

[Munson]

Several years ago, I pulled something in my lower back. It hurt so bad that I couldn't even stand up straight. I was hunched over like an 80 year old man, even though I was around 30 at the time.

I ended up taking a combination of hydrocodone (painkiller) and flexeril (muscle relaxer) for about 2 weeks. Those pills worked so great it was almost scary. I got the deepest, most peaceful sleep I've ever had in my life. Even though I personally didn't feel the slightest bit addicted, I can see how other people could get hooked.

I stopped taking the pills as soon as I could because the opioids mess with your digestive system. My intestines were so backed up that you could see it on an x-ray.

[Halfcan]

Broken ankle- no problem- Veech will still sign you to a 3 year deal for 28 million!

[RINGLEADER]

They just make me go to sleep.

[58-4ever]

don't be a pussy. just don't get a refill.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by TribalElder

Don't take oxy, it's heroin

you should request something else

This is incorrect.

Originally Posted by frozenchief

That's too bad. You didn't have to do that. Most news stories are designed to scare you and this whole 'opioid addiction epidemic' is part and parcel of that. I have had my appendix and my gall bladder removed. I took the pain meds until I really didn't hurt anymore. That was about 10-14 days.

This is dangerously ill-informed.

Originally Posted by dwwataz

This. Take them to your primary. They'll be more than happy to discard them for you. I did this with every bottle of pills as I built up to my eventual dosage. I started on a substantially lower dose but it didn't touch the pain. Truth be told, I could probably take higher but I'd rather endure my current pain than continue higher up the narcotics ladder.

You cannot do this; you can only take controlled substances back to a select few year-round locations designated for year-round takeback or thousands of designated sites on the DEA's annual TakeBack day, which is in late April this year.

Originally Posted by frozenchief

I disagree based upon my own research and observations. And the reason thatpharmacids won’t fill those scripts is because the DEA has prosecuted doctors for “over-prescribing medications”, even though DEA agents aren’t doctors. I’ve handled those cases as well.

Pharmacists won't fill those scripts because they don't want to contribute to abuse and diversion of opioids, and there are usually a few doctors in every town that will over-prescribe meds.

Originally Posted by frozenchief

No. My claim is that the risk of addiction from taking meds for a short time after a surgery is quite small and that a longer time is usually (emphasis on usually) necessary to develop a physical addiction.

You aren't qualified to make these claims.

[SupDock]

Originally Posted by frozenchief

For some reason it posted my answer before I finished and it's just easier to put this in one place. No, my claim is that the risks that someone will develop an addiction to opioids based solely upon a script for post-surgical pain is small, certainly small enough to not be in pain for fear of addiction. The article you supplied actually supports my position in several ways.

First, the article addresses how many people, having started opioids, are still using them a year later. The article notes that about only 6% of people are using opioids a year later. Second, the article just focuses upon use to manage pain and does not focus upon withdrawal symptoms should someone quit. If you need to continue taking the pills because you are still in pain, then I think it's better to keep taking the pills. But if you are taking the pills because it is pleasurable, because you have some psychological need to or you suffer withdrawal symptoms, then it is better to quit taking the medications. The article does not address this distinction.

The article notes that crucial days are the fifth and thirtieth, meaning that continuing to take the meds after those days demonstrates a higher risk (again, not a certainty) of having to continue to use the medications. This makes sense from a pain standpoint: if your body hasn't adjusted after thirty days, then its odds of adjusting are quite low.

One reason I expect we disagree is because we are looking at the data from two different fields of study. In my field of study, mere use a year after an injury would not mean addiction. If someone were in a horrible car crash and crushed several vertebrae, pelvis and legs, I would not be surprised if that person needed pain management for the rest of their life. But that it because of the physical condition of their body, not because they are demonstrating drug-seeking behavior.

One reason for my skepticism is I see DEA agents, the CDC and National Office of Drug Policy (or whatever their name is) put out ads that really do not reflect the reality of recreational/addictive drug use. "One Hit of Meth (or fill in the drug) Will Make You An Addict!!!!" scream the headlines. The reality is far different. Most people don't start recreational drug use by using meth. And most people who are willing to recreationally use meth/heroin/cocaine/oxy have already heavily dabbled in drug use and are thus more at risk for drug-seeking behavior.

One deficiency with the paper you posted is that participants had to not abuse substances for the previous six months. That says to me that the participants in that study are more likely to be using opioids because they actually need pain meds than because they are exhibiting drug-seeking behavior.

To sum, then, I do not think that OP's finishing his script of oxys to address pain after surgery will suddenly convert him into a mindless drug-seeker, destroying his life as he seeks more and more drugs. And I think that our current drug scare about addiction has done more harm than good by causing some people who legitimately are in pain because of injury/accident/surgery to avoid pain meds for fear they will suddenly turn into addicts.

I do recognize that abuse of oxys is higher right now than it has been. By abuse, I mean use of a drug for non-medicinal purposes. Taking 10+ a day is an indication of abuse. Grinding them up and snorting them is an indication of abuse. SMoking them is an indication of abuse. None of these were covered in your article and I seriously doubt that OP will be doing this by the time he finishes his prescription.

Such behavior is occurring more with oxys now because compared to some other drugs, oxys are currently easier to obtain. Demand for recreational drugs is similar to a balloon. It stays constant* while prohibition efforts tend to focus upon one drug at the expense of others. You can think of this as squeezing one end of the balloon. Yes, it will get smaller but the other end will bulge out of your hand. So prohibition enforcement focuses on heroin and meth becuase popular. THey focus on meth and oxys become popular. Oxys are likely to remain popular anyway because they come from pharmaceutical companies and thus their dosage is known and any fillers are safe for human consumption.

Since your article does not address any of those circumstances and appears instead to focus upon those who are legitimately using opioids, I do not find it relevant when discussing whether a short-term use of opioids will create drug-seeking behavior and I therefore stand by my earlier statements.


* since passage of the Harrison Narcotics Act of 1913, about 1.5% of the American population has demonstrated drug-seeking or addictive behavior. THat might rise a bit to 1.7%. Might fall to 1.25%. but its generally been a pretty straight line.

Respectfully, you are way off base and unqualified to make these claims.

This article in no way supports your argument.