***NON-POLITICAL COVID-19 Discussion Thread***

[JakeF]

A couple of reminders...

Originally Posted by Bwana

Once again, don't come in this thread with some kind of political agenda, or you will be shown the door. If you want to go that route, there is a thread about this in DC.

Originally Posted by Dartgod

People, there is a lot of good information in this thread, let's try to keep the petty bickering to a minimum.

We all have varying opinions about the impact of this, the numbers, etc. We will all never agree with each other. But we can all keep it civil.

Thanks!

Click here for the original OP:

Spoiler!

Apparently the CoronaVirus can survive on a inanimate objects, such as door knobs, for 9 days.

California coronavirus case could be first spread within U.S. community, CDC says
By SOUMYA KARLAMANGLA, JACLYN COSGROVE
FEB. 26, 2020 8:04 PM

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is investigating what could be the first case of novel coronavirus in the United States involving a patient in California who neither recently traveled out of the country nor was in contact with someone who did.

“At this time, the patient’s exposure is unknown. It’s possible this could be an instance of community spread of COVID-19, which would be the first time this has happened in the United States,” the CDC said in a statement. “Community spread means spread of an illness for which the source of infection is unknown. It’s also possible, however, that the patient may have been exposed to a returned traveler who was infected.”

The individual is a resident of Solano County and is receiving medical care in Sacramento County, according to the state Department of Public Health.

The CDC said the “case was detected through the U.S. public health system — picked up by astute clinicians.”

Officials at UC Davis Medical Center expanded on what the federal agency might have meant by that in an email sent Wednesday, as reported by the Davis Enterprise newspaper.

The patient arrived at UC Davis Medical Center from another hospital Feb. 19 and “had already been intubated, was on a ventilator, and given droplet protection orders because of an undiagnosed and suspected viral condition,” according to an email sent by UC Davis officials that was obtained by the Davis Enterprise.

The staff at UC Davis requested COVID-19 testing by the CDC, but because the patient didn’t fit the CDC’s existing criteria for the virus, a test wasn’t immediately administered, according to the email. The CDC then ordered the test Sunday, and results were announced Wednesday. Hospital administrators reportedly said in the email that despite these issues, there has been minimal exposure at the hospital because of safety protocols they have in place.

A UC Davis Health spokesperson declined Wednesday evening to share the email with The Times.

Since Feb. 2, more than 8,400 returning travelers from China have entered California, according to the state health department. They have been advised to self-quarantine for 14 days and limit interactions with others as much as possible, officials said.

“This is a new virus, and while we are still learning about it, there is a lot we already know,” Dr. Sonia Angell, director of the California Department of Public Health, said in a statement. “We have been anticipating the potential for such a case in the U.S., and given our close familial, social and business relationships with China, it is not unexpected that the first case in the U.S. would be in California.”

It is not clear how the person became infected, but public health workers could not identify any contacts with people who had traveled to China or other areas where the virus is widespread. That raises concern that the virus is spreading in the United States, creating a challenge for public health officials, experts say.

“It’s the first signal that we could be having silent transmission in the community,” said Lawrence Gostin, director of the World Health Organization Collaborating Center on National and Global Health Law. “It probably means there are many more cases out there, and it probably means this individual has infected others, and now it’s a race to try to find out who that person has infected.”

On Tuesday, the CDC offered its most serious warning to date that the United States should expect and prepare for the coronavirus to become a more widespread health issue.

“Ultimately, we expect we will see coronavirus spread in this country,” said Nancy Messonnier, director of the CDC’s National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases. “It’s not so much a question of if, but a question of when.”

According to the CDC’s latest count Wednesday morning, 59 U.S. residents have tested positive for the new strain of coronavirus — 42 of whom are repatriated citizens from a Diamond Princess cruise. That number has grown by two since Messonnier’s last count Tuesday, although the CDC was not immediately available to offer details on the additional cases.

More than 82,000 cases of coronavirus have been reported globally, and more than 2,700 people have died, with the majority in mainland China, the epicenter of the outbreak.

But public health leaders have repeatedly reminded residents that the health risk from the novel coronavirus to the general public remains low.

“While COVID-19 has a high transmission rate, it has a low mortality rate,” the state Department of Public Health said in a statement Wednesday. “From the international data we have, of those who have tested positive for COVID-19, approximately 80% do not exhibit symptoms that would require hospitalization. There have been no confirmed deaths related to COVID-19 in the United States to date.”

CDC officials have also warned that although the virus is likely to spread in U.S. communities, the flu still poses a greater risk.

Gostin said the news of potential silent transmission does not eliminate the possibility of containing the virus in the U.S. and preventing an outbreak.

“There are few enough cases that we should at least try,” he said. “Most of us are not optimistic that that will be successful, but we’re still in the position to try.”

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by Otter

A free society.

Sweet, I'll just shoot the Covid-positive guy in the head when I need a hospital bed.

Braveheart GIFfrom Freedom GIFs

[Rausch]

Originally Posted by Bearcat

Alpha-gal syndrome is literally a 1% problem... 1-3% to be exact.

Serious issues from the vaccines including the 7000 deaths out of 380 million shots are a 0.0002% problem, or one in 38,000.

It would be like saying someone who was in a serious car accident should now be equally afraid of flying on commercial airlines (and of course, there are idiots who are more afraid of flying than driving long stretches of highway at 70mph).

Agreed. I would disagree on the total number of possible side effects BASED ON EXISTING HEALTH CONDITIONS. The prick will not make me suddenly have blood clots (yes, in bizarre cases people have had that happen but it's more likely they had undiagnosed issues before.)

The other side of the coin is natural immunity, also very rare, but also a better defense for the small number of people to have it. I do. How do I know?

I worked, every day, for a year and a half with covid. I worked with the extremely sick in the sick ward. I worked the entry area where every single person who walked in or out passed through. I did not have a bad reaction.

It's possible I did get it in December before it was thought to be a thing. If it was in the population 3 or 4 months earlier than we thought I might have gotten it early. Or my ass just got sick for the first time in 5 years and I never did get covid.

So here's the reality: I'm likely immune and don't need a vaccine. My son has been in the hospital 3 times in the last 6 months and almost died of blood clots - his doctor has told him NOT to get it based on never getting covid (to his knowledge) My wife's immune system sucks and always has -my wife SHOULD probably be getting the prick (heh.)

So in conclusion: 1) Bad for my son.
2) Completely unnecessary for me.
3) Possibly very valuable and life saving treatment for my wife.

People also need to realize that 2 years from now this could completely change. If the virus mutates dramatically and I suddenly develop a heart condition I would then move to my wife's situation. If I had a severe car accident and got blood clotting like my son I might move to his condition.

[Otter]

Originally Posted by Bearcat

Sweet, I'll just shoot the Covid-positive guy in the head when I need a hospital bed.

Braveheart GIFfrom Freedom GIFs

Since you're vaccinated you can just share. Maybe a little spooning action.

Sorry, I just can't get on board with forcing an adult to inject something in their body they don't want. I think the term is 'slippery slope'.

[Rausch]

Originally Posted by Otter

Since you're vaccinated you can just share. Maybe a little spooning action.

Sorry, I just can't get on board with forcing an adult to inject something in their body they don't want. I think the term is 'slippery slope'.

That's all modern politics is.

"What set of rules do I want to force on people that disagree with me?"

That's it - that's politics right now.

**** it - I'm out. I do a terrible job doing what's best for me. I'm not telling you what to do. Figure it out. Good or bad I'm not wasting my time forcing you to do anything...

[mlyonsd]

Originally Posted by Rausch

That's all modern politics is.

"What set of rules do I want to force on people that disagree with me?"

That's it - that's politics right now.

**** it - I'm out. I do a terrible job doing what's best for me. I'm not telling you what to do. Figure it out. Good or bad I'm not wasting my time forcing you to do anything...

You do what you think is best. Only true POS's feel the need to force their opinions on somebody else's health decisions.

[Bearcat]

Yeah, I think something lost in all of the mandate talk and the bullshit that comes with it is that every company (that I've seen, anyway) has what I'd say is logical outs.

The major hospitals around here are mandating vaccinations, but you can get out of it with a medical exemption and doctor's note. Other places are requiring frequent testing if you don't want to get vaccinated (I've seen weekly, which seems extreme) and still want/need to go into work. I've seen other places that say you have to continue wearing a mask or WFH, that sort of thing if you're unvaccinated.

I think at some point you should be able to prove antibody immunity versus requiring the vaccine... haven't read much on it, but apparently it's not really a thing at the moment.

I personally haven't seen any company completely force vaccinations, so unless they exist, that's not really a thing.

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by Rausch

**** it - I'm out. I do a terrible job doing what's best for me. I'm not telling you what to do. Figure it out. Good or bad I'm not wasting my time forcing you to do anything...

Meh, I wasn't all that much in disagreement with what you're saying... I know people who will have a doctor's note and won't get vaccinated. Unfortunately, I also know people who have literally told me "I just don't like being told what to do" as their rationale.

The most government I want in my life is the same as law enforcement or any other authority... only step in when all else is failing. I don't care for forced vaccinations, just like I don't care about all the bullshit reasons to not get it.

[Rausch]

Originally Posted by Bearcat

Meh, I wasn't all that much in disagreement with what you're saying... I know people who will have a doctor's note and won't get vaccinated. Unfortunately, I also know people who have literally told me "I just don't like being told what to do" as their rationale.

The most government I want in my life is the same as law enforcement or any other authority... only step in when all else is failing. I don't care for forced vaccinations, just like I don't care about all the bullshit reasons to not get it.

I worded that poorly. I didn't mean to direct that at you - I meant that at people in general. No matter how good an idea is it can't be forced on people. You can't force people to be moral.

There are no clockwork oranges.

[ReynardMuldrake]

All hospitals in Idaho are now under a blanket DNR order due to COVID. Insanity.

“Universal DNR Order: Adult patients hospitalized during a public health emergency, when crisis standards of care have been declared, should receive aggressive interventions; however, they should receive NO attempts at resuscitation (compressions, shocks or intubation if not yet intubated) in the event of cardiac arrest. The likelihood of survival after a cardiac arrest is extremely low for adult patients. As well, resuscitation poses significant risk to healthcare workers due to aerosolization of body fluids and uses large quantities of scarce resources such as staff time, personal protective equipment, and lifesaving medications, with minimal opportunity for benefit.”

https://www.idahostatesman.com/opini...254287998.html

[dirk digler]

Originally Posted by Otter

Do you think wagging you're finger in someone's face and playing holier than thou is going to fix the situation.

You know, the scuzzer method?

All that does is widen the divide.

Originally Posted by Rausch

All health is case specific. We just had a thread on here by someone who was allergic to types of meat. MEAT.

You don't force that single person to eat meat because it's super healthy for everyone else. In that specific case you need specific care. What is great for 99% of people is not correct 100% of the time.

We all know this.

We all also need to realize this means small percentages. 50% of people don't have a condition 1% of people get. No, they don't. People need to realize that while a small percentage could have serious side effects that is a small percentage. Know if you have one of those health conditions. Don't act contrarian just for the sake of it.

In this specific case she is a nurse and quit her dream job because she didn't want to get vaccinated. The reason why she didn't want to get vaccinated is 100% politics.

Now she is consuming valuable hospital resources all because of politics. So yeah no sympathy here because she is an idiot that should know better.

[Chief Pagan]

Originally Posted by mlyonsd

You do what you think is best. Only true POS's feel the need to force their opinions on somebody else's health decisions.

So does that mean, for instance, that you think school districts should get rid of all current vaccine requirements such as for measles?

There shouldn't be any health requirements for travelers coming to the US?

[Chief Roundup]

Originally Posted by ReynardMuldrake

All hospitals in Idaho are now under a blanket DNR order due to COVID. Insanity.


https://www.idahostatesman.com/opini...254287998.html

You are somewhat overstating, or using too much shock and awe. Also, that is behind a paywall. I am not going to take off my ad blocker. So I will provide another source that is not behind said wall.

https://apnews.com/article/business-...5c45aa133045ba

FILE - In this Aug. 31, 2021 file photo a R.N. holds the hand of a COVID-19 patient in the Medical Intensive care unit (MICU) at St. Luke's Boise Medical Center in Boise, Idaho. The Idaho Department of Health and Welfare made the announcement Thursday, Sept. 16, 2021. St. Luke's Health System, Idaho's largest hospital network, asked state health leaders to allow "crisis standards of care" on Wednesday because the increase in COVID-19 patients has exhausted the state's medical resources. (AP Photo/Kyle Gree,File)
1 of 3
FILE - In this Aug. 31, 2021 file photo a R.N. holds the hand of a COVID-19 patient in the Medical Intensive care unit (MICU) at St. Luke's Boise Medical Center in Boise, Idaho. The Idaho Department of Health and Welfare made the announcement Thursday, Sept. 16, 2021. St. Luke's Health System, Idaho's largest hospital network, asked state health leaders to allow "crisis standards of care" on Wednesday because the increase in COVID-19 patients has exhausted the state's medical resources. (AP Photo/Kyle Gree,File)

BOISE, Idaho (AP) — As the spread of the delta variant continues unabated in much of the U.S., public health leaders have approved health care rationing in Idaho and parts of Alaska and Montana.

At least five more states — Georgia, Kentucky, Mississippi, Arkansas and Texas — are nearing capacity with more than 90% of their intensive care unit beds full, according to data from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.

The move to ration healthcare comes amid a spike in the number of unvaccinated COVID-19 patients requiring hospitalization. Crisis standards of care allow health care providers to give scarce resources, like ventilators, to the patients most likely to survive.

But determining who gets what is no easy feat.

WHAT ARE ‘CRISIS STANDARDS OF CARE?’

Crisis standards of care give legal and ethical guidelines to health care providers when they have too many patients and not enough resources to care for them all. Essentially, they spell out exactly how health care should be rationed in order to save the most lives possible during a disaster.

Some health care rationing steps have become commonplace during the pandemic, with hospitals postponing elective surgeries and some physicians switching to online visits rather than seeing patients in person. But more serious steps — such as deciding which patients must be treated in a normal hospital room or intensive care unit bed, and which patients can be cared for in a hospital lobby or classroom — have been rare.

At the extreme end of the spectrum, crisis standards of care generally use scoring systems to determine which patients get ventilators or other life-saving medical interventions and which ones are treated with pain medicine and other palliative care until they recover or die.

WHAT’S THE SCORING SYSTEM, AND WHAT ARE ‘TIE-BREAKERS’?

States may use a combination of factors to come up with patient “priority scores.” Idaho’s and Montana ’s system both consider how well a patient’s major organ systems are functioning. Patients with indications of liver or kidney damage, poor oxygen and blood clotting levels and an inability to respond to pain because they are in a coma have higher scores.

Both states also score people based on saving the highest number of “life-years,” so if a person has cancer or another illness that is likely to impact their future survival, they get a higher score.

The lower a patient’s score, the more likely they are to survive, moving them toward the front of the line for ventilators or other resources.

The plans also have “tie-breakers” that come into play if there aren’t enough resources for all of the folks at the front of the line. Youth is the biggest tie-breaker, with children getting top priority.

In Idaho, pregnant women who are at least 28 weeks along with viable pregnancies come next. Both states also give consideration to younger adults ahead of older adults, and Idaho’s fourth tie-breaker is if the patient performs a task that is vital to the public health crisis response. The final tie-breaker is a lottery system.

If someone at the front of the line is given a ventilator and doesn’t show improvement within a set period of time, Idaho says they should be taken off so someone else can have a chance.

On Thursday, shortly after Idaho enacted crisis standards of care statewide, Dr. Steven Nemerson with Saint Alphonsus Regional Medical Center in Boise said that to his knowledge, no patient in the state had been removed from life support in order to provide the equipment to someone else. But he warned it would happen.

“It’s bad today. It’s going to get much worse,” Nemerson said. “I’m scared for all of us.”

DOES VACCINATION STATUS MATTER?

No.

In both Idaho and Montana, the crisis standards of care don’t consider whether a person has been vaccinated against COVID-19. Likewise, patients aren’t denied care if they are injured in a car accident because they failed to wear a seatbelt or drove while intoxicated.

“Vaccination status is not relevant to us when it comes to taking care of patients. We simply do what they need us to do within the constraints and the resources that we have,” said Dr. Shelly Harkins, chief medical officer at St. Peters hospitals in Helena.

WHAT ELSE CHANGES WHEN A HOSPITAL IS OPERATING UNDER CRISIS STANDARDS OF CARE?

Nearly everything.

People will likely wait longer for care, not just in hospitals but at urgent care centers that will likely be dealing with more patients as well. Nurses will care for more patients than they normally would. Instead of hospital beds, some people might be placed on stretchers and cots. Patients will likely be sent home from the hospital as soon as possible, relying on friends, family and prescriptions for in-home medical equipment during their recovery.

And in some cases, physicians may not attempt to save a patient’s life at all. Idaho’s crisis standards of care plan calls for a “Universal Do Not Resuscitate Order” for all adults once the state has reached the point where there aren’t enough ventilators to go around.

That means if a patient experiences cardiac arrest — where the heart stops suddenly — there will be no chest compressions, no attempts to shock the heart back into a normal rhythm, no chance at hooking them up to life support. That’s partly because resuscitation requires a bunch of hospital staffers, a lot of time, and is frequently unsuccessful. It’s also because if the patient has COVID-19, the process of attempting to revive sends aerosolized virus particles into the air, putting staffers at risk.

Montana’s plan is a bit different, in that it allows individual doctors to decide whether or not to resuscitate patients on a case-by-case basis.

[Pitt Gorilla]

Originally Posted by Bearcat

It's just like so many other things in all of this.

If my neighbor wants to be an idiot and hoard toilet paper, be an idiot and hoard toilet paper... well, until people are driving all around town just to find one roll.

If my neighbor doesn't want to get vaccinated, I don't really care... well, until I would have to drive to another hospital for care and have to wear a mask while traveling 18 months after all of this started and concerts are still being canceled, etc, etc.

If my neighbor wants to take an anti-parasitic because he caught a virus, lulz you do you.... well, until there's a shortage of the medication for its intended use.

Exactly.

[Swanman]

Originally Posted by Otter

Do you think wagging you're finger in someone's face and playing holier than thou is going to fix the situation.

You know, the scuzzer method?

All that does is widen the divide.

Well on one side you have people that have taken a vaccine proven to be safe and effective and on the other side you have people that rub horse deworming paste in their armpits because a chiropractor on Facebook said it was a great idea to combat Covid. I will gladly be divided from idiots like that. So many Herman Cain Awards being delivered these days and the average iq of the country is very slowly rising as a result.



Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk

[suzzer99]

I see we've moved on to the "we should coddle people who are making a public health emergency much worse and respect their feelings above all else" tone policing phase of the discussion.