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Old 01-09-2019, 03:42 PM  
RodeoPants2 RodeoPants2 is offline
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What should trump give to get his 5B for the wall?

Trump's approach here seems to be to whine and hope he gets his way. But if you want to make a deal, both sides need to be happy with it.

Trump is supposedly the master dealmaker, lol, clearly not.

What would you give the democrats in exchange for getting the wall?
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Old 01-12-2019, 10:57 AM   #271
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I understand you want to change the 14th amendment.

But do you think the constitution as is should apply to all Americans?
ABOLISH THE 2ND AMENDMENT

MUH CONSTITUTION

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Old 01-12-2019, 12:10 PM   #272
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So the GAO's summary is wrong?
It's not wrong. It's just one piece to the puzzle.

The problem is that illegal immigration is so pervasive that it goes beyond profit/loss for the govt. It doesn't factor in systematic impact. What is the impact to ability to the food supply and ability to complete construction and infrastructure projects if you not just rip out the labor pool, but do it without giving employers any advance notification. What is the impact to consumers and businesses when you jack up labor costs - it increases costs not only for a raw material manufacturer (i.e. milk), but also the finished goods manufacturer that uses that input (i.e. cheese), which ultimately leads to higher prices for consumers but also businesses (i.e. Domino's Pizza). You know what happens when ICE has raided farms in the past? Food shortages. You know what happens if labor costs get too high? Ironically, businesses shut down the plant and outsource to Mexico anyway.

Without any changes to our current labor and visa laws, a hardline stance on immigration basically becomes a giant business tax and consumer tax. Which I would imagine far surpasses GAO projections. Illegal immigration has allowed businesses to produce at low labor cost which has created a ton of economic benefit including giving consumers more disposable income by making consumer products more affordable.

So the GAO isn't wrong. It's why immigration urgently needs to be fixed. But it doesn't tell the whole story and I think people seriously undermine how big an impact it makes to the economy when labor costs go up and availability of labor goes down.
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Old 01-12-2019, 01:05 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
It's not wrong. It's just one piece to the puzzle.

The problem is that illegal immigration is so pervasive that it goes beyond profit/loss for the govt. It doesn't factor in systematic impact. What is the impact to ability to the food supply and ability to complete construction and infrastructure projects if you not just rip out the labor pool, but do it without giving employers any advance notification. What is the impact to consumers and businesses when you jack up labor costs - it increases costs not only for a raw material manufacturer (i.e. milk), but also the finished goods manufacturer that uses that input (i.e. cheese), which ultimately leads to higher prices for consumers but also businesses (i.e. Domino's Pizza). You know what happens when ICE has raided farms in the past? Food shortages. You know what happens if labor costs get too high? Ironically, businesses shut down the plant and outsource to Mexico anyway.

Without any changes to our current labor and visa laws, a hardline stance on immigration basically becomes a giant business tax and consumer tax. Which I would imagine far surpasses GAO projections. Illegal immigration has allowed businesses to produce at low labor cost which has created a ton of economic benefit including giving consumers more disposable income by making consumer products more affordable.

So the GAO isn't wrong. It's why immigration urgently needs to be fixed. But it doesn't tell the whole story and I think people seriously undermine how big an impact it makes to the economy when labor costs go up and availability of labor goes down.
Great. So you agree with the conclusion of the GAO report?
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Old 01-12-2019, 01:30 PM   #274
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Great. So you agree with the conclusion of the GAO report?
I agree with it as one piece to the puzzle. Yes, illegal immigration needs to be fixed. But it needs to be happened delicately because there is economic impact to how its done. If the govt reduces their cost, but in exchange we create indirect business and consumer taxes... That doesn't create economic benefit.

And arguably, amnesty and forcing illegals to pay penalties, future taxes, and turning illegal labor into aboveground visa labor can solve a lot of govt revenue vs cost issues, right? So I'm still struggling to see the mass resistance to allowing foreign labor to work here if they're aboveground and paying into the system.
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Old 01-12-2019, 01:31 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
I agree with it as one piece to the puzzle. Yes, illegal immigration needs to be fixed. But it needs to be happened delicately because there is economic impact to how its done. If the govt reduces their cost, but in exchange we create indirect business and consumer taxes... That doesn't create economic benefit.

And arguably, amnesty and forcing illegals to pay penalties, future taxes, and turning illegal labor into aboveground visa labor can solve a lot of govt revenue vs cost issues, right? So I'm still struggling to see the mass resistance to allowing foreign labor to work here, provided that an employer believes they're valuable enough to go through the hassles and expense of giving them a work visa.
I don't have an issue with legal immigration, as long as its merit-based. These people need to make the country better, not worse (unlike illegals).
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Old 01-12-2019, 02:02 PM   #276
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I don't have an issue with legal immigration, as long as its merit-based. These people need to make the country better, not worse (unlike illegals).
Yes, agreed
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Old 01-12-2019, 02:43 PM   #277
RodeoPants2 RodeoPants2 is offline
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Why not? What's wrong with the multiple sources that the GAO report used? I thought you liked multiple sources/reports?

Anyway, what parts of the document don't support the summary?
Given the level of uncertainty and lack of methodological transparency in the studies cited by the report, I don't think it's correct to reach the strong conclusion noted in item (1).

Which part of the full report definitively establishes the conclusion noted in (1)?
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Old 01-12-2019, 02:48 PM   #278
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Given the level of uncertainty and lack of methodological transparency in the studies cited by the report, I don't think it's correct to reach the strong conclusion noted in item (1).

Which part of the full report definitively establishes the conclusion noted in (1)?
Interesting. I wouldn't think many people would disagree with the GAO or its conclusions.

All of it, I presume.
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Old 01-12-2019, 03:09 PM   #279
RodeoPants2 RodeoPants2 is offline
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Should be easy to find some parts that definitely establish the conclusion noted in item (1) then
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Old 01-12-2019, 03:12 PM   #280
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Should be easy to find some parts that definitely establish the conclusion noted in item (1) then
I'm fine with accepting the conclusion of the summary. You aren't.
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Old 01-12-2019, 03:25 PM   #281
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lol ok
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Old 01-12-2019, 03:26 PM   #282
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lol ok
What's funny about that?
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Old 01-12-2019, 06:28 PM   #283
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Why are you fine accepting the conclusions of the summary?
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Old 01-12-2019, 07:03 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by RodeoPants2 View Post
Why are you fine accepting the conclusions of the summary?
Because it confirms his beliefs.

Duh...
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Old 01-13-2019, 09:13 AM   #285
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Why are you fine accepting the conclusions of the summary?
Because I wouldn't think that the GAO would make such an egregious error.
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