Chiefs Paying Fools Top Tier Contracts - Page 7

**Buehler445** · 11-21-2018, 12:19 AM

There is a lot of talk here about paying our guys. I have significant reservations about paying fools top tier contracts outside of QB. No, it isn't shell shock from Berry/Houston. A lot of thought has went into my position. There is a hell of a lot of nuance with contract structure, age, the player, etc., but the bottom line is that it is unlikely that dudes under big contracts will account for enough production that equates to winning games to justify the contracts.

I am and have been a production per unit salary cap guy and I just don't see it with the top tier contracts. Let's look through the top 5 contracts at various positions. All numbers from overthecap.com.

RB

Spoiler!

Pretty unanimous that RBs aren't worth the money. I'd agree looking at this. In a big game, Rams went away from Gurley. Arizona, Atlanta, Buffalo, and NY are all missing the playoffs and these guys look to be doing NOTHING to contribute to wins. I like Hunt, but looking at this list, Yuck.

WR

Spoiler!

There are some good arguments for these guys. Steelers aren’t the same when Brown is out. DeAndre Hopkins is really good and does a lot of bailing out of Watson. Cooks is contributing. I don’t want him for that coin, but he’s a good player on a good team. OBJ though, Christ the Giants are bad and he is definitely not carrying much of a load in terms of wins. TB is a joke and Evans is not good. OBJ is definitely one of the top guys and if he can peel off that much AND the team be THAT bad, how much is he contributing to wins? I’m not sure I want to be in that game. Reek is other worldly, but 20M/100M? For a speed guy? Man, I don’t know.

DL

Spoiler!

That list is a little weird with 2 guys on the tag. Donald and Cox are good but 100M?! Yeesh. And Watt is another guy who is good but is hurt all the time. I love Chris Jones, but II think we all saw he’s not Donald, and he’s probably not Watt. I don’t think I want him up there.

Pass Rush

Spoiler!

We all know the Justin Houston story. Mack is lighting the world on fire, but it is year 1. Von Douche is good but he ain’t carrying shit these days. Vernon is another mother****er who obviously isn’t contributing shit to wins on that **** of a Giants team. Same with Jones in Arizona. I like Jones, but they’re obviously not winning because of him. I am most certainly NOT looking to make Dee Ford paid like one of these dudes.

Corner

Spoiler!

I don’t I want Nelson to be up there. These numbers are more palatable, but Nelson really isn’t very good.

I’d argue that paying guys top contracts don’t work out. Other than QB. If you have a top flight QB, you hold on to him. But when you look through this list and objectively think about what these guys contribute in terms of wins, I don’t see it.

That’s not to say don’t pay anybody anything. Obviously that won’t work, but top tier contracts rarely work out. I’d probably rather pay a dude like Scandrick than Trumaine Johnson. I mean, yeah, if these guys walk (and they will in all likelihood) for this kind of money, it will suck, but we are in cap hell because of bad contracts – contracts that don’t provide good production per unit Salary Cap.

My opinion: Offer these guys middling reasonable contracts – maybe guarantee more of it, but I don’t want these giant contracts.

ChiefBlueCFC · 11-21-2018, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buehler445

DL

Spoiler!

That list is a little weird with 2 guys on the tag. Donald and Cox are good but 100M?! Yeesh. And Watt is another guy who is good but is hurt all the time. I love Chris Jones, but II think we all saw he’s not Donald, and he’s probably not Watt. I don’t think I want him up there.

Donald is worth the money he's making bc he is absolute wrecking ball and disrupts shit almost at will.

Watt is the same, but as you said he's had issues with health.

Jones is damn good but he isn't $100M good. Maybe in a few years.

However, if we take care of these contracts sooner rather than later, we can save money. Dorsey's issue with Berry and Houston contracts is he waited until their contracts ran up.

**kysirsoze** · 11-21-2018, 01:49 PM

Saying OBJ isn't worth it because they aren't winning doesn't apply to Hill at all. Eli ****ing blows. OBJ would absolutely be worth it with even an above average QB. Where the Ginats ****ed up is drafting Barkley. Total waste. Paying Hill with Mahomes to throw to him is a no brainer. It HAS to happen.

Dunerdr · 11-21-2018, 02:17 PM

I. Not reading the whole thread but, Aaron Rodgers has had a lot of nickels and really no quarters maybe a few dimes. And look at his ****ing career. Continue treading water every year.

St. Patty's Fire · 11-21-2018, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buehler445

So is OBJ. And they have 2 mother****ing wins. And a supposed legit QB.

If you get 2 guys at half the salary will you get the same production?

I don't know, because Hill is really ****ing special. And I don't want him to walk.

I just don't want a hamstring pull away from $20M per on the bench.

We’re not re-signing OBJ with the intent of playing him with a washed up/always overrated Eli Manning.

If we were a question mark at QB, then yes giving Hill that 20M might be unwise.

But he will be playing with the best QB in the league moving forward. You absolute give Reek WHATEVER he wants. The offense wouldn’t be the same without him.

**BigRedChief** · 11-21-2018, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAUTO

You aren't telling anyone anything they don't know. So you can quit repeating yourself.

maybe Mr. Mod you should quit following me around making snide comments? Just a thought.

Hydrae · 11-21-2018, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by srvy

So true OBJ reminds me of a more talented D. Bowe in fact this thread reminds me of the pay Bowe threads of past.

The difference is Reek put in the work in off season and made himself into a wide receiver not just a gimmick. Dedication deserves to be rewarded Reek gets his. Players like Bowe never put in the work and yet got rewarded.

Lock in Hill as leagues highest paid receiver and cross your fingers on his health he will reward us years to come.

Normally I would not want to give a long term contract to a speedster. When the speed is gone, they are usually done. But Tyreek has worked so hard to become a true WR and learning the route tree that I think he will still be quite good after the speed drops.

I also think he may well give us a "home team discount" since we took a chance on him when many in the league would not have drafted him in any round.

**BossChief** · 11-21-2018, 02:44 PM

2019 FAs (48m cap space after rollover)

Conley
Nelson
Morse
Bailey
Ford
Sherman
Harris

2020 FAs (65m in cap space)

Hill
Robinson
Jones
Williams
Fuller
Ragland
Murray

**MahiMike** · 11-21-2018, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buehler445

I'm not there on Hill for 20M per.

OBJ is legit. But the Giants are total **** even with him on there. Obviously he's not contributing to wins.

Plus if we extend him after next year he'll be 30 by the end of a 5 year deal and will probably have lost a step. I'm not all about speed guys who are aging.

Christ it sucks ass, but I think it's the thing to do. He's going to get PAID and I don't think it should be us.

Remember when Manning had Marvin Harrison and everyone thought he was the best ever. Remember when Manning didn't have Marvin Harrison?

I think Hill is better than Harrison, but looking through that list, particularly OBJ, it's tough for me to pay a guy that doesn't contribute to wins.

Umm we have Patrick freaking Mahomes. Not broke dick Eli. Pay Hill whatever he wants. We need him.

JakeF · 11-21-2018, 02:53 PM

It's usually decided about the position. Certain positions are move valuable than others. Those positions often have longer NFL lifespans too. QB,Passrusher,LT,WR,CB

WR and CB have begun more valuable recently.

**Buehler445** · 11-21-2018, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BossChief

2019 FAs (48m cap space after rollover)

Conley
Nelson
Morse
Bailey
Ford
Sherman
Harris

2020 FAs (65m in cap space)

Hill
Robinson
Jones
Williams
Fuller
Ragland
Murray

Woah. That’s bad. Some of those guys can get bent or play for peanuts. Some of those are going to HURT.

JakeF · 11-21-2018, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MahiMike

Umm we have Patrick freaking Mahomes. Not broke dick Eli. Pay Hill whatever he wants. We need him.

You can't pay anyone whatever they want. It hurts the rest of the team too much.

If we get rid of our overpaid Mash unit players we will have tons of money.

JakeF · 11-21-2018, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BossChief

2019 FAs (48m cap space after rollover)

Conley
Nelson
Morse
Bailey
Ford
Sherman
Harris

2020 FAs (65m in cap space)

Hill
Robinson
Jones
Williams
Fuller
Ragland
Murray

2019 is pretty easy, Ford is the only problem. Allen Bailey is playing much better now though but he's still not worth 8m. Ford might want huge money and I'm not sure we should pay him. Conley should be an easy keep.

2020 Hill and Jones are important keeps, the rest depends on how much they want.

**SAUTO** · 11-21-2018, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

maybe Mr. Mod you should quit following me around making snide comments? Just a thought.

That wasn't a snide comment. I was just stating facts. You were the one crying about being tired of saying something over and over that literally everyone here knows.

There's a reason to try and lock them up early.

Oh and I can't believe you are being a drama queen (actually i can, it fits right in with you) saying I'm following you around. When was your last post I even commented on? Had to be at least weeks ago.

**Buehler445** · 11-21-2018, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MahiMike

Umm we have Patrick freaking Mahomes. Not broke dick Eli. Pay Hill whatever he wants. We need him.

I agree.

But I feel compelled to ask whether or not we really do need him. Brady has done GOAT performances with ****all for talent. Manning the same after Harrison shot up fools. Rodgers has done a lot with not much at receiver. I believe Mahomes is in that class. So does it make sense to drop top dollar on a WR? Or would the money be better served on the line and the other side of the ball.

Hill is insane and is going to get fat paid. And I think it should be us. But I don’t know for sure.

The problem with letting our guys walk because they’re too expensive is other guys in free agency are too damn expensive too.

Replacing Nelson is going to SUCK Scandrick isn’t long for the league so both our outside guys are going to need good money unless a draft pick can start year one. Same with Jones/Bailey. It’s going to be real expensive and that’s why Hill gives me hesitation though.

I still think we sign him, but man, there are some bleak outlooks out there.

**Buehler445** · 11-21-2018, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunerdr

I. Not reading the whole thread but, Aaron Rodgers has had a lot of nickels and really no quarters maybe a few dimes. And look at his ****ing career. Continue treading water every year.

That’s kind of the crux of the issue. It’s not whether to spend money. Without looking I think GB is, i don’t hear about them constantly being at the floor or anything.

But Rodgers has made a good offense out of bad talent. But they can’t buy a stop. Rather than having bad defense and a great offense maybe a decent defense and above average offense would yield better results than GB has seen.

Rodgers’ only SB win was when they had some talent on D.

11-21-2018, 12:19 AM
Buehler445 Supporter Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Scott City KS Casino cash: $2344734	Paying Fools Top Tier Contracts There is a lot of talk here about paying our guys. I have significant reservations about paying fools top tier contracts outside of QB. No, it isn't shell shock from Berry/Houston. A lot of thought has went into my position. There is a hell of a lot of nuance with contract structure, age, the player, etc., but the bottom line is that it is unlikely that dudes under big contracts will account for enough production that equates to winning games to justify the contracts. I am and have been a production per unit salary cap guy and I just don't see it with the top tier contracts. Let's look through the top 5 contracts at various positions. All numbers from overthecap.com. RB Spoiler! Todd Gurley 5 years $57.5M ($14.375M avg) $21.95M Guaranteed. David Johnson 3 years $39M ($13 avg) $24.69M Guaranteed Devonta Freeman 5 years $41.25M ($8.25M avg) $18.3 Guaranteed LeSean McCoy 5 years $40.05M ($8.01M avg) $18.25 Guaranteed Saquon Barkley 5 years $31.2 M (7.8M avg) $31.2 Guaranteed (pending option) Pretty unanimous that RBs aren't worth the money. I'd agree looking at this. In a big game, Rams went away from Gurley. Arizona, Atlanta, Buffalo, and NY are all missing the playoffs and these guys look to be doing NOTHING to contribute to wins. I like Hunt, but looking at this list, Yuck. WR Spoiler! OBJ 5 years $90M ($18M avg) $40.96M Guaranteed Antonio Brown 4 years $68M ($17M avg) $19M Guaranteed Mike Evans 5 years $82M ($16.5M avg) $38.3M Guaranteed DeAndre Hopkins 5 years $81M (16.2 avg) $36.5M Guaranteed Brandin Cooks 5 years $81M (16.2 avg) $20.46M Guaranteed There are some good arguments for these guys. Steelers aren’t the same when Brown is out. DeAndre Hopkins is really good and does a lot of bailing out of Watson. Cooks is contributing. I don’t want him for that coin, but he’s a good player on a good team. OBJ though, Christ the Giants are bad and he is definitely not carrying much of a load in terms of wins. TB is a joke and Evans is not good. OBJ is definitely one of the top guys and if he can peel off that much AND the team be THAT bad, how much is he contributing to wins? I’m not sure I want to be in that game. Reek is other worldly, but 20M/100M? For a speed guy? Man, I don’t know. DL Spoiler! Aaron Donald 6 years $135M ($22.5M avg) $50M Guaranteed Ezekiel Ansah 1 year $17.1 M $17.1M Guaranteed (Franchise) Demarcus Lawrence 1 year $17.1 M $17.1M Guaranteed (Franchise) Fletcher Cox 6 years $102.6M ($17.1M avg) $36.3M Guaranteed JJ Watt 7 years $100M ($16.7M avg) $20.9M Guaranteed That list is a little weird with 2 guys on the tag. Donald and Cox are good but 100M?! Yeesh. And Watt is another guy who is good but is hurt all the time. I love Chris Jones, but II think we all saw he’s not Donald, and he’s probably not Watt. I don’t think I want him up there. Pass Rush Spoiler! Khalil Mack 6 years $141M ($23.5M avg) $60M Guaranteed Von Miller 5 years $114M (19.1M avg) $42M Guaranteed (** Donk Forever) Oliver Vernon 4 years $85M ($17M avg) $40M Guaranteed Justin Houston 5 years $101M ($16.8M avg) $32.5M Guaranteed Chandler Jones 4 Years $82.5M ($16.5M avg) $31M Guaranteed. We all know the Justin Houston story. Mack is lighting the world on fire, but it is year 1. Von Douche is good but he ain’t carrying shit these days. Vernon is another motherer who obviously isn’t contributing shit to wins on that of a Giants team. Same with Jones in Arizona. I like Jones, but they’re obviously not winning because of him. I am most certainly NOT looking to make Dee Ford paid like one of these dudes. Corner Spoiler!** Josh Norman 5 Years $75M ($15M avg) $36.5M Guaranteed. Trumaine Johnson 5 Years $72.5M ($14.5M avg) $34M Guarnteed. Xavier Rhodes 5 years $70.1M (14M avg) $20M Guaranteed Patrick Peterson 5 years $70M (14M avg) $16.5M Guaranteed Kyle Fuller 4 years $56M ($14M avg) $18M Guaranteed I don’t I want Nelson to be up there. These numbers are more palatable, but Nelson really isn’t very good. I’d argue that paying guys top contracts don’t work out. Other than QB. If you have a top flight QB, you hold on to him. But when you look through this list and objectively think about what these guys contribute in terms of wins, I don’t see it. That’s not to say don’t pay anybody anything. Obviously that won’t work, but top tier contracts rarely work out. I’d probably rather pay a dude like Scandrick than Trumaine Johnson. I mean, yeah, if these guys walk (and they will in all likelihood) for this kind of money, it will suck, but we are in cap hell because of bad contracts – contracts that don’t provide good production per unit Salary Cap. My opinion: Offer these guys middling reasonable contracts – maybe guarantee more of it, but I don’t want these giant contracts.
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11-21-2018, 01:49 PM	#92
kysirsoze SNAP THE ****ING BALL!!! Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: KCMO Casino cash: $3786946	Saying OBJ isn't worth it because they aren't winning doesn't apply to Hill at all. Eli **ing blows. OBJ would absolutely be worth it with even an above average QB. Where the Ginats **ed up is drafting Barkley. Total waste. Paying Hill with Mahomes to throw to him is a no brainer. It HAS to happen.
Posts: 11,285

11-21-2018, 02:17 PM	#93
Dunerdr MVP Join Date: Oct 2012 Casino cash: $2459677	I. Not reading the whole thread but, Aaron Rodgers has had a lot of nickels and really no quarters maybe a few dimes. And look at his ****ing career. Continue treading water every year. __________________ Adopt-A-Chief- Rachel Santschi
Posts: 10,621

11-21-2018, 02:44 PM	#97
BossChief SuperBowl or bust Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: BF Iowa Casino cash: $1904088	2019 FAs (48m cap space after rollover) Conley Nelson Morse Bailey Ford Sherman Harris 2020 FAs (65m in cap space) Hill Robinson Jones Williams Fuller Ragland Murray __________________ Dreams do come true... http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showp...postcount=1407
Posts: 47,107

11-21-2018, 02:53 PM	#99
JakeF MVP Join Date: May 2017 Casino cash: $9990400	It's usually decided about the position. Certain positions are move valuable than others. Those positions often have longer NFL lifespans too. QB,Passrusher,LT,WR,CB WR and CB have begun more valuable recently.
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