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Old 02-26-2020, 10:28 PM  
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***NON-POLITICAL COVID-19 Discussion Thread***

A couple of reminders...

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Originally Posted by Bwana View Post
Once again, don't come in this thread with some kind of political agenda, or you will be shown the door. If you want to go that route, there is a thread about this in DC.
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Originally Posted by Dartgod View Post
People, there is a lot of good information in this thread, let's try to keep the petty bickering to a minimum.

We all have varying opinions about the impact of this, the numbers, etc. We will all never agree with each other. But we can all keep it civil.

Thanks!

Click here for the original OP:

Spoiler!

Last edited by Bearcat; 03-25-2020 at 08:56 AM.. Reason: adding spoiler tag
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Old 11-19-2021, 09:13 AM   #56851
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Originally Posted by TLO View Post
Kinda blows. I've had great conversations with people about getting vaccinated and then they go on to make their own decision.

Am I pro vaccine? Abso-****ing-lutely. Do I wish all our employees would just get vaccinated? Sure.

But I know it's not realistic. Our company doesn't pay enough to retain, say oh, 30-50% of our field staff that doesn't want to get vaccinated.

We can't operate with 50% of our staff when we're short staffed already.
You've probably mentioned it before, but just out of curiosity, do you know details around their exemption criteria and how that went?

I know a couple of the biggest hospital systems here required it and I've heard one went very well while the other has been a shitshow with no communication about exemptions and other issues (of course heading into flu season).
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Old 11-19-2021, 09:28 AM   #56852
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Originally Posted by Nirvana58 View Post
The normal time line for testing and development of a vaccine is 10-15 years.
Early research goes back to 1989, first human trials were around 2000, Moderna started development in 2010, and the first human trials against infectious disease was 2013, plus several other viruses in the mid 2010s.

I haven't found decent information on what those trials find after a year, 3 years, 5 years, 10+ years... I'm sure a lot of it is a matter of figuring out why a vaccine adversely effects a small portion of people, and seeing those effects right away.... versus people suddenly dropping dead 5 years later or developing some other disease that can be linked to the vaccine, etc.

It's something I've been curious about with previous research and trials, if it's just being super diligent or if they routinely learn new things years later.
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Old 11-19-2021, 09:46 AM   #56853
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Originally Posted by Bearcat View Post
Early research goes back to 1989, first human trials were around 2000, Moderna started development in 2010, and the first human trials against infectious disease was 2013, plus several other viruses in the mid 2010s.

I haven't found decent information on what those trials find after a year, 3 years, 5 years, 10+ years... I'm sure a lot of it is a matter of figuring out why a vaccine adversely effects a small portion of people, and seeing those effects right away.... versus people suddenly dropping dead 5 years later or developing some other disease that can be linked to the vaccine, etc.

It's something I've been curious about with previous research and trials, if it's just being super diligent or if they routinely learn new things years later.
Yes Moderna has been trying to bring a drug to market for about 10 years before their covid vaccine. All failed to make it past the mid trial phase.

With any drug sometimes you don't see all the effects right away. With how complicated the human body is we can't always predict how it will react.

Good/ Bad news is we are basically in the biggest stage 3 trial ever conducted. If everything goes well and long term safety is proven. Mrna technology could advance our medical capabilites 10 fold. Basically make fighting cancer with things like chemo look barbaric.

Last edited by Nirvana58; 11-19-2021 at 09:57 AM..
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Old 11-19-2021, 09:50 AM   #56854
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My company is a government contractor, so they're forced to vaccinate or face steep fines.

However, I've been told that the exemption criteria is extremely lax and pretty much anyone that applies with a reasonable explanation will be granted their exception.
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Old 11-19-2021, 09:57 AM   #56855
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearcat View Post
You've probably mentioned it before, but just out of curiosity, do you know details around their exemption criteria and how that went?

I know a couple of the biggest hospital systems here required it and I've heard one went very well while the other has been a shitshow with no communication about exemptions and other issues (of course heading into flu season).
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Originally Posted by loochy View Post
My company is a government contractor, so they're forced to vaccinate or face steep fines.

However, I've been told that the exemption criteria is extremely lax and pretty much anyone that applies with a reasonable explanation will be granted their exception.
We fall under Medicare/Medicaid funding, so I'm not sure how lax they will be for us. They quite literally dropped this on our plate yesterday. Something tells me the higher ups of the company knew more about this before they dropped it on us.
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Old 11-19-2021, 01:11 PM   #56856
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Originally Posted by Nirvana58 View Post
The normal time line for testing and development of a vaccine is 10-15 years.
Ok. What if it is an emergency and you spend 100 to 1000 times the normal amount of money and do much larger trials on a drug that has been extensively researched for over a decade?

You still have to wait 10 years because the bureaucracy has always plodded along like that before?

"They" said it would take months to years to get a vaccine to the point of testing but because of how much attention it got, it was more like weeks.
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Old 11-19-2021, 01:32 PM   #56857
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Originally Posted by Chief Pagan View Post
Ok. What if it is an emergency and you spend 100 to 1000 times the normal amount of money and do much larger trials on a drug that has been extensively researched for over a decade?

You still have to wait 10 years because the bureaucracy has always plodded along like that before?

"They" said it would take months to years to get a vaccine to the point of testing but because of how much attention it got, it was more like weeks.
Spend all the money you want. It is not going to speed up the time needed for trials to look for adverse effects.

These specific vaccines have not been researched for decades. The concept has failed for decades. Never even got to stage 3 trials before.

If you want to argue it was an emergency and to make available the vaccine for high risk people. I completely agree.

Mandating and forcing an experimental vaccine in people that should still be in testing phase under normal circumstances. That is just beyond stupid.

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Old 11-19-2021, 02:31 PM   #56858
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Originally Posted by TLO View Post
We fall under Medicare/Medicaid funding, so I'm not sure how lax they will be for us. They quite literally dropped this on our plate yesterday. Something tells me the higher ups of the company knew more about this before they dropped it on us.
Are you actually seeing people quit, or are you hearing people threaten to quit? While I'd imagine the former types are more common in Missouri than other areas, there are plenty of examples from around the country where tons of people threaten to quit but only like 1% actually do.
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Old 11-19-2021, 02:39 PM   #56859
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Originally Posted by Nirvana58 View Post
How about stop trying to force people to take a vaccine that they don't want?
I'm not trying to force people to do anything.
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Old 11-19-2021, 02:39 PM   #56860
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Are you actually seeing people quit, or are you hearing people threaten to quit? While I'd imagine the former types are more common in Missouri than other areas, there are plenty of examples from around the country where tons of people threaten to quit but only like 1% actually do.
I've had a couple give 2 weeks notice. Though I've talked them into holding off for now until I have more concrete info to give them.
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Old 11-19-2021, 02:43 PM   #56861
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I've had a couple give 2 weeks notice. Though I've talked them into holding off for now until I have more concrete info to give them.
Well, in case it's helpful, here's a pretty good article on the impacts that mandates had out here.

https://coloradosun.com/2021/11/17/h...date-staffing/
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Old 11-19-2021, 04:24 PM   #56862
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Originally Posted by Nirvana58 View Post
Spend all the money you want. It is not going to speed up the time needed for trials to look for adverse effects.

These specific vaccines have not been researched for decades. The concept has failed for decades. Never even got to stage 3 trials before.

If you want to argue it was an emergency and to make available the vaccine for high risk people. I completely agree.

Mandating and forcing an experimental vaccine in people that should still be in testing phase under normal circumstances. That is just beyond stupid.
I'm curious, what other chemicals that are safe after 2 years are unsafe after 10? Is there any precedence within vaccines? What makes genetic fragments of COVID dangerous (which is what the mRNA vaccines are)? Follwoing that line of thought, wouldn't covid be equally or more unsafe at 10 years?
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Old 11-19-2021, 04:40 PM   #56863
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I've had a couple give 2 weeks notice. Though I've talked them into holding off for now until I have more concrete info to give them.
How might the next court ruling affect your company/employees? I really haven't read into it, but were your superiors perhaps holding out hope it would come down at the same time as the other one so they'd have an idea of what their next options might be?

Apparently, there have been quite a few last minute vacations being used here locally. Using paid time off and vacation days is a pretty clear sign that they must be serious about it. Another problem is a lot of females have decided they can live without all the extras in exchange for spending time at home with their kids and it's having a fairly significant affect on the local care facilities ability to find younger employees. They are recruiting at the local nursing school like never before in an attempt to get every warm body they can. Historically, they have to cut these young kids off at the pass before they get a chance to move to KC.

Oddly enough, one of their best sources of quality new workers has been young families wanting to move back out of the metro area to get their kids into what they consider the better rural school systems they themselves came from. The head of one of the care facilities had really good success with this pitch at one of those "employment fair" type of things they had in KC a few months ago. In the past, there was very very little success with this method.
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Old 11-19-2021, 05:24 PM   #56864
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Originally Posted by Tylerthigpen!1! View Post
I'm curious, what other chemicals that are safe after 2 years are unsafe after 10? Is there any precedence within vaccines? What makes genetic fragments of COVID dangerous (which is what the mRNA vaccines are)? Follwoing that line of thought, wouldn't covid be equally or more unsafe at 10 years?
Exactly what I was getting at... I would think just like Covid, there are underlying things that could cause issues, things we already know like if you have a history of going into anaphylaxis shock.

Then you would want to test for certain things like... what if a vaccinated person got a particular disease that the vaccine somehow makes worse.

Just outright saying "we don't know, therefore it could unexpectedly kill me down the road" is a bad excuse unless there's some science behind it... even given we don't know what we don't know.
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Old 11-20-2021, 10:14 PM   #56865
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COVID-19 increases stillbirths during pregnancy: research

https://www.foxnews.com/health/covid...nancy-research

Pregnant women who become infected with the delta variant face a significantly higher risk of a stillbirth or dying during childbirth, new studies show.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention released a report Friday that examined 1.2 million deliveries in 736 hospitals nationwide from March 2020 through September 2021.

Stillbirths were rare overall, totaling 8,154 among all deliveries. But researchers found that for women with COVID-19, about one in 80 deliveries resulted in a stillbirth. Among the uninfected, the rate was one in 155.

Among those with COVID-19, stillbirths were more common in people with chronic high blood pressure and other complications, including those in intensive care or on breathing machines, according to the studies.

"These findings underscore the importance of COVID-19 prevention strategies, including vaccination before or during pregnancy," said CDC researcher Carla DeSisto and co-authors.

There’s no information on how many women had received COVID-19 shots, although the authors noted that the U.S. vaccination rate among pregnant women after the highly contagious delta variant emerged this past summer was just 30%.

Pregnant women infected with COVID-19 were more likely than others to develop severe, even fatal, illness and they also faced increased risks for preterm birth and other complications, the researchers found. Previous studies on stillbirths and COVID-19 had mixed findings, but the new report bolsters concerns among obstetricians and anecdotal data.

While the risk for a stillbirth is low, anyone who is pregnant shouldn’t underestimate the dangers of COVID-19, said Dr. Mark Turrentine, a professor at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston. He helped write the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists’ recommendations for COVID-19 vaccination in pregnancy.

"What’s really sad is we have 10 months of a vaccine that’s been highly effective, and we just can’t convince people to take advantage of this," Turrentine said of a minority of vaccine resisters.

Some experts have speculated that the virus may cause inflammation in the placenta or other abnormalities that could harm the fetus.

US PREMATURE BIRTHS DECLINE IN 2020, MARCH OF DIMES REPORT SAYS

Dr. Joseph Biggio, a specialist in high-risk pregnancies at Ochsner Health in New Orleans, said the study doesn’t prove that COVID-19 causes stillbirths. He said it’s possible some women were so critically ill that physicians trying to keep them alive "couldn’t intervene on behalf of a fetus that they knew was in trouble."

The researchers relied on medical records and noted that they were unable to determine if the COVID-19 diagnoses listed at the time of delivery represented current or past infections.

Generally, stillbirths are more common among Black people, those who become pregnant over age 35 or those who smoke tobacco during pregnancy.

The study didn’t include pregnancy outcomes by race, an area the authors said they plan to investigate in future research "because COVID-19 has disproportionately affected many racial and ethnic minority groups, putting them more at risk of getting sick and dying."
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