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Old 09-22-2022, 10:34 AM  
DJ's left nut DJ's left nut is offline
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The mystery of our fascination with Outside Zone

So I'll gladly listen to anyone that wants to correct me on this one, but it sure looks to me like the Chiefs STILL prefer an outside zone running system and for the life of me I cannot figure out why.

There's an article in the Athletic that really sums up my confusing in a lot of ways. It's about the Lions dedication to a power gap scheme. Here's a little blurb that kinda makes my point for me:

Quote:
The popularity of the outside zone system that stems from Kyle Shanahan and Sean McVay has led to more teams employing a Vic Fangio-style defense, which asks defensive linemen to play slower and take on a gap-and-a-half, rather than fly upfield and play only one gap. Theoretically, the defense can live in light boxes and invest more personnel in defending the pass as long as its front can slow down ball carriers long enough for the secondary to help. This works well against zone runs because offensive linemen move laterally, but the Lions like to run right into the teeth of defenses with authority. They want their offensive line, one of the best in the league, firing off vertically and punishing defenders.
https://theathletic.com/3613162/2022...e-ben-johnson/


WHY IS THIS NOT OUR RUNNING GAME!?!?! Teams have been doing that Fangio shit to us for 2+ years now. They're living in light boxes and when we run the ball we're leading with our chins and running this damn outside zone crap that A) Doesn't take advantage of our power blockers as well and B) Lets the defense do what it wants to do, which is use speed and move laterally to race us to the sidelines and seal off big gains. It can essentially run Nickel formations and still manage that.

Maybe they're doing more gap running than I realize or maybe I'm just too damn stupid to see the bigger picture of what they're trying to accomplish.

But man - I will never understand why we haven't made teams 'pick your poison' more. When we run, it should absolutely be a gap scheme designed to just maul guys rather than this outside zone crap that just does them a massive favor while not taking advantage of our OL's greatest strengths.
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Old 09-23-2022, 09:06 AM   #46
O.city O.city is offline
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And at the risk of castigating St. Patrick, I think he does those RPO reads these days with a wink and a nod.

He treats an RPO read like Jimbo these days:



If he sees ANY excuse at all to pull the ball, he's gonna. And sometimes I think he pulls it when he doesn't see an excuse. He's just so aggressive on those RPO reads.

I'd probably get rid of them, especially now that we don't have Hill to really create a problem on those quick slants. They served their purpose but I think it's probably getting you diminishing returns at this point.
He never "gives" on them, box count be damned.
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Old 09-23-2022, 10:16 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by DJ's left nut View Post
Dan Campbell managed to teach it in an off-season and he's dumb as a shoe.


Man I hate that the lions are looking ok right now. I irrationally hate Dan Campbell.
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Old 09-23-2022, 10:19 AM   #48
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Man I hate that the lions are looking ok right now. I irrationally hate Dan Campbell.
He’ll bite your kneecap off for saying that.
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Old 09-23-2022, 10:45 AM   #49
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Man I hate that the lions are looking ok right now. I irrationally hate Dan Campbell.
I LOVE Dan Campbell.





In Detroit

I’d be so pissed if he was Chiefs Coach. But the entertainment value alone is worth him keeping his job.

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Old 09-23-2022, 10:48 AM   #50
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I get Mahomes is our QB and you want it in his hands every play... but Andy has shown that it really doesn't matter what scheme we use, and how successful we are with it... he won't stick with it.
I remember Andy blowing a game by refusing to run the ball back in his Philly days. John Madden was kinda chuckling about it "It's so hard for Andy to call a lot of runs, even when it's called for, just not in his DNA."
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Old 09-23-2022, 10:59 AM   #51
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He never "gives" on them, box count be damned.
I think he just engages in a little creative accounting.

"Well you see, I realize that the safety was 20 yards off the LOS but he could have been on a run blitz so I counted him as inside the box. And the corner on the left side had his foot near the hash marks and that's really just 3 good strides away from being near the LB so I counted a 9th in there as well.

I mean it looks like a Nickel formation but really, that was a 9 man box..."
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Old 09-23-2022, 11:04 AM   #52
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I think we will see more gap scheme as a way to counter the Tite Front defenses that our being used to defend Spread. Down block with our interior 3 and kick the shit out of them... Hopefully we can mix some of those in out of spread formation, especially with our recent futility on short downs.
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Old 09-23-2022, 11:18 AM   #53
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I don't know. Maybe it compliments the passing game to help set up his screen game? Perhaps it forces the defense to read the play longer...I'm just spitballing here to keep the discussion rolling cause it's an interesting question.
What screen game?
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Old 09-23-2022, 12:55 PM   #54
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I LOVE Dan Campbell.





In Detroit

I’d be so pissed if he was Chiefs Coach. But the entertainment value alone is worth him keeping his job.

He's the perfect not my team but ill root for them as under dogs coach.
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Old 09-23-2022, 01:20 PM   #55
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It also deals with blocking techniques of the Mike Shanahan zones which involved cutblocking and said blockers aiming for the knees instead of squaring up and drive the defenders down cleanly. We saw this shit up close and live with the late 90's Broncos.
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Old 09-23-2022, 01:45 PM   #56
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He's the perfect not my team but ill root for them as under dogs coach.
I wish he'd have been hired by someone in the AFC East. Just to beat on the Bills and Patriots.

Or the AFC North just for the entertainment value of having 4 teams that are just out there mauling the piss out of each other like it's 1965. We can always hope Cincy continues to scuffle, right? Oh lord, please let him go to Cleveland with Nick Chubb and Myles Garrett.

I just feel like his ability to be miserable to play against is wasted in that pisswater conference.
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Old 09-23-2022, 04:30 PM   #57
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I think Tim Grunhardt is a ****ing idiot and I can't stand him. But he once said something EXTREMELY insightful: The most valuable commodity in the NFL is time.

You only get so much practice time. There just aren't enough hours for that sort of radical shift in approach, IMO. You don't have the practice time for 2 completely different installs.

But I don't see how that would interfere with a shift from a zone scheme to a gap scheme over the course of an off-season.

But like you said - guy didn't ask me. I just don't have a good answer for it - Andy is a DAMN smart guy and obviously knows more about football than idea. Which makes it all the stranger that this appears as self-evident to me as it does.

If I think it's this obvious and yet Andy Reid isn't doing it, it must be because I'm reeruned because I know he isn't.

But try as I might, I can't figure it out.
He's my favorite guy to listen to when it comes to the Chiefs.
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Old 09-23-2022, 04:50 PM   #58
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Old 09-23-2022, 06:44 PM   #59
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They run a fairly balanced mix of inside/outside zone, depending on the looks and alignment the defense is throwing at them. the RPO system they run utilizes the same gap mechanics.
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Old 09-23-2022, 11:43 PM   #60
Buehler445 Buehler445 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut View Post
I wish he'd have been hired by someone in the AFC East. Just to beat on the Bills and Patriots.

Or the AFC North just for the entertainment value of having 4 teams that are just out there mauling the piss out of each other like it's 1965. We can always hope Cincy continues to scuffle, right? Oh lord, please let him go to Cleveland with Nick Chubb and Myles Garrett.

I just feel like his ability to be miserable to play against is wasted in that pisswater conference.
Right? At least come the the AFC so teams can’t just sell out of the pass for 17 games because they might play one against us.

But if he happens to beat Rodgers, that doesn’t hurt.
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