2018 STL Cardinals Thread

[BigRedChief]

Opening day lineup

Fowler RF
Pham CF
Carpenter 3B
Ozuna LF
Martinez 1B
Molina C
Dejong SS
Wong 2B
Pitcher

Edit:
Matheny fired 07/14/2018




Opening Day Roster

Spoiler!

St. Louis has opted to carry 12 position players and 13 pitchers to begin the new season, with a four-man bench and eight-man bullpen.

Outfielders:
Dexter Fowler
Tommy Pham
Marcell Ozuna

Infielders:
Matt Carpenter
Paul DeJong
Kolten Wong

Catchers:
Yadier Molina
Francisco Pena

Utility:
Jose Martinez
Greg Garcia
Yairo Munoz
Jedd Gyrko

Starters:
Carlos Martinez
Michael Wacha
Luke Weaver
Miles Mikolas
Jack Flaherty

Relievers:
Dominic Leone
Tyler Lyons
Bud Norris
Brett Cecil
Sam Tuivailala
Matt Bowman
Jordan Hicks
Mike Mayers

On the DL:
Adam Wainwright
Luke Gregerson

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Marcellus

So whats everyone's thoughts on Mozeliak now?

He's still risk averse and needs to do something to bundle B+ assets into a true difference maker.

This team still has a ceiling on it and Matt Carpenter's expiration date is still approaching. A white-hot month may spackle over the cracks in the foundation but they're still there.

The team needs to add a piece that immediately supplements Carpenter in this lineup and can be in line to replace him long-term as a potential MVP caliber stick.

He's still a man that wasn't smart enough to fire Mike Matheny 2 years ago after he was de-pantsed in the playoffs a 3rd straight time. He's still a man who's set more than $100 million on fire for washed up veterans because he was too chickenshit to pursue actual risk/reward acquisitions.

He's the same mediocre evaluater and executive he's always been.

[VAChief]

Originally Posted by Marcellus

So whats everyone's thoughts on Mozeliak now?

He seems willing to walk away from his own mess. That is about as positive as I can give him right now.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by Marcellus

So whats everyone's thoughts on Mozeliak now?

He whiffed big time on Fowler, Cecil, Gregerson, Leon etc. I give him a mulligan on Holland. He was good last year and it was a 1 year right before the season deal. Matheny made it more damaging because he kept running him out there when he clearly had lost it.

He holds on to talent way too long.

He has in the win column, Mikolas and Norris. Getting Ross, Adams and Shereve for nothing.

Firing Matheny. Better late than never. I think it was Dewitt that kept pushing back the inevitable decision to rid us of that mistake.

Putting his own found and developed Manager in place thats so far succeeding.
Totally revamped the bullpen from a dumpster fire to from top to bottom, one of the best pens in baseball, so far.


Trades:
Piscotty: trade had to be done. Looks like we got some talent back.
Ozuna: nothing showing up yet that we will totally regret giving away. He could be a force in 2019 if they get his shoulder right.
Pham: He was inconsistent and we needed to clear that CF spot to give Bader and O'Neill a chance. We got some good prospects in return
Grichuck: Won that trade already.

Drafting and Player Development:
No way this resurgence is Ludlow. This is Mo's. We are drafting at the bottom of the rounds every year. He's getting it done.

Bottom line: he needs to outsource FA decisions. Stick to player development and trades. This manager and young talent has got me off the fire Mo bandwagon. We could do a lot worse.

[DJ's left nut]

You give him a mulligan on Holland?!?!

FFS, why? That's the dumbest, most inexplicable move of the bunch. Anyone who actually thought that guy wasn't going to suck was just being an idiot. And the fact that they gave him $14 million is just laughably inept.

That was an aaaaaaaaawful deal from the second it was signed. Just awful.

I'm also not sure how you bang him for Leone. Grichuk was gone; absolutely done here. We moved him for a reliever that looked good then got hurt. We still have said reliever for 2 more years. I think the Leone deal is a hell of a trade and it can still work out very nicely.

****ing Holland....lord that's awful.

And his recent trade record isn't bad, I'll grant you. But he pays retail and doesn't take risks. There was no real risk in the Grichuk deal and he'd have never made the Piscotty deal but/for the family thing. Pham was found money who wasn't producing and Ozuna cost us precisely dick.

He'll operate in the margins and trade organizational depth pieces away, but he won't take a risk that may hurt the squad. The last time he did it was Heyward and he's just gunshy now, IMO. I think he needs to look for a similar deal and target an upgrade at 3b or SS.

For instance - the Reds have NO pitching. None. And their best prospect is Nick Senzel who is one of the best pure hitters in the minors and a natural 3b by trade. Now, you're not getting Senzel from them, but you MIGHT be able to get Eugenio Suarez.

Now they signed him to a big extension (for way below market) so he'd cost you a small fortune, but maybe you need to make that move anyway for a young All-Star 3b with a ton of team control. Weaver and Wacha gets you in the door but doesn't get it done. I wouldn't part with Flaherty in that deal and they don't need OFers. Barnhart's only a couple years older than Kelly, signed long-term and probably represents Kelly's upside anyway.

You willing to give up Reyes+ for him? You might have to be; we've done alright without him. Hudson, Weaver and Wacha? Might hurt pretty badly but it might be the best way to utilize these resources.

Now I'm not hemmed in on Suarez here, but that's the kind of guy we need to look for and risky trade we need to be willing to make to get over the hump, IMO.

I don't think Moe is willing to pull that trigger.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Originally Posted by Marcellus

So whats everyone's thoughts on Mozeliak now?

Fire his pathetic ass.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

You give him a mulligan on Holland?!?!

FFS, why? That's the dumbest, most inexplicable move of the bunch. Anyone who actually thought that guy wasn't going to suck was just being an idiot. And the fact that they gave him $14 million is just laughably inept.

That was an aaaaaaaaawful deal from the second it was signed. Just awful.

We had no proven reliever. Most people in baseball thought it was a good deal at the time because it was a one year deal. Low risk. Who cares about losing $15 million total? How does that effect us long term? I'm also going off the articles and podcasts saying it was Matheny wanting Holland. Supposedly, Matheny went to Dewitt and asked for Holland.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

He'll operate in the margins and trade organizational depth pieces away, but he won't take a risk that may hurt the squad. The last time he did it was Heyward and he's just gunshy now, IMO. I think he needs to look for a similar deal and target an upgrade at 3b or SS.

I agree totally with this.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

For instance - the Reds have NO pitching. None. And their best prospect is Nick Senzel who is one of the best pure hitters in the minors and a natural 3b by trade. Now, you're not getting Senzel from them, but you MIGHT be able to get Eugenio Suarez.

Now they signed him to a big extension (for way below market) so he'd cost you a small fortune, but maybe you need to make that move anyway for a young All-Star 3b with a ton of team control. Weaver and Wacha gets you in the door but doesn't get it done. I wouldn't part with Flaherty in that deal and they don't need OFers. Barnhart's only a couple years older than Kelly, signed long-term and probably represents Kelly's upside anyway.

You willing to give up Reyes+ for him? You might have to be; we've done alright without him. Hudson, Weaver and Wacha? Might hurt pretty badly but it might be the best way to utilize these resources.

I don't think Moe is willing to pull that trigger.

Hoping FA but I know thats a real long longshot. No way we are getting a MOTOB without giving up Reyes or Flaherty as just one piece. Then your talking at least 3 more project-able MLB players. Give something to get something. Total risky move which I agree is not Mo's style.


But, it has to be done. We need a legitimate #3 hitter.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

We had no proven reliever. Most people in baseball thought it was a good deal at the time because it was a one year deal. Low risk. Who cares about losing $15 million total? How does that effect us long term? I'm also going off the articles and podcasts saying it was Matheny wanting Holland. Supposedly, Matheny went to Dewitt and asked for Holland.

"Most people in baseball" are the same idiots who mostly still refuse to acknowledge how god-awful Mike Matheny was.

And those are the same people who want to argue that a win share is worth $8 million.

We'll discuss it in terms that make the most sense in relation to Greg Holland - obesity. The national average for men is just a tick under 200 lbs and our national height is just a tick under 5'10''. So if a 5'10'' dude weighs 200 lbs he can say "hey, that's average".

Fantastic, it's average, but it ain't healthy because the average includes Omar the Tentmaker who needs a crane to get out of his bathtub and a whole slew of other exceptionally unhealthy people lugging around 100 lbs more than they need to be. 'Average' ain't the mark here, lads. Healthy is.

That's the context in which you need to consider the $8 million WAR. You pay $14 million for a 2 win reliever (which is about what even the optimistic idiot talking heads thought he'd be) and you can claim you beat the average by $2 million. But average sucks when it includes the Albert Pujols and Eric Hosmer's of the world.

'Healthy' is $4-5 million/win. There was no chance in the world that the Cardinals were getting 3 wins out of Greg Holland. I said at the time that I'd be shocked if they got 1. There was never any way to make that anything less than a LESS terrible deal. But it was a terrible deal in either event and the fact that Mike Matheny needed him as a wubby should have made it all the more apparent that he needed a new manager and not an out of shape, declining reliever.

[DJ's left nut]

Oh, and we gave up a 2nd round pick and roughly $1.1 million in pool money for the privilege of signing the chode as well (as I watched the draft, my choice there was Siani, Isbel or Eierman; that pick hurt all the more as the draft unfolded because there was a ton of talent sitting there at the time).

And FINALLY they had to give up $500K in international bonus money as well, which doesn't seem like anything until you realize that international bonus money is getting pretty nice returns of late; that's how we got the Yankees to include Gallegos in the Voit/Shreve deal. We also got Lane Thomas who's moved into the top 20 or so of our prospects of late.

So we gave up not just the money but at LEAST two solid prospects so we could sign a guy who was decaying before our eyes last season.

No, there was never a way for that deal to be a good one. And 'most people in baseball' who thought it was simply had their heads too far up their own asses to realize any better.

[bdj23]

Originally Posted by Marcellus

So whats everyone's thoughts on Mozeliak now?

I'll give him 1 more offseason, but if he brings in scrubs the like of Fowler, Cecil and Leake this winter as big name acquisitions, he can go too.

[dls6501]

It is nice to see a fresh bullpen now due to our change in managers. Mattheny had no idea how to manage a bullpen and all of our guys were spent with him at the helm.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by BDj23

I'll give him 1 more offseason, but if he brings in scrubs the like of Fowler, Cecil and Leake this winter as big name acquisitions, he can go too.

Yeah, I jumped off the fire Mo bandwagon, but I'm ready to get back on with a bad off season. He comes back with another incremental off season, I'm hoping back on.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

DJ is illustrating an issue. Mo needs to trade our quarters for dollars. It opens you up to significant risk with a single injury or downturn, but it must be done to raise the ceiling.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

DJ is illustrating an issue. Mo needs to trade our quarters for dollars. It opens you up to significant risk with a single injury or downturn, but it must be done to raise the ceiling.

A guy on my Cardinals board is banging the drum for Trae Turner. I can't say that I agree with him there as I believe Turner is a bit overrated due to his power explosion after his callup. I also don't think he uses his speed as well as he could on defense and his arm isn't exactly elite over there.

But I echo the sentiment, obviously, that we need to consolidate talent somehow.

Ideally you find a team that needs a pitcher, OFer and C and see what the best piece you can get in return for some of our depth might be.

Weirdly, Colorado would be a pretty great fit. Their OF has been abysmal despite what they viewed as a surplus there. Their catching situation is equally awful both now and going forward. Additionally, arms just get torched out there; apart from ineffectiveness guys just overthrow and get hurt so they always need arms. They have some very high end young prospects (and obviously Arenado, who you can't pry out of there but would sure be nice).

Baltimore lined up perfectly for a deal for Machado but once the season started without one getting done, that ship sailed. Texas and Toronto look like good fits but like Colorado, Toronto thinks they have an OF surplus, those guys have just kinda sucked. San Diego needs help just about everywhere, especially if they decide to give up on Austin Hedges (who just cannot hit).

Texas, Colorado and Cincy look like ideal trade partners from a 'their needs' perspective but I'm not sure I see a lot of guys I'd want back from them in one of those big deals. We ain't getting Bichette from Toronto or Tatis JR from SD.

But man, with Story coming on and Hampson looking like an exciting piece for them after LaMeheiu....it sure would be nice to find a way to pry Brendan Rogers out of there. O'Neill, Hudson and Kelly get that done? He's closer to Paul DeJong than he is Andrelton Simmons with the leather so you may be better served to just offer that kind of package for an upgrade at 3b (Suarez is where I keep coming back to), but Rodgers is blocked as all hell if they get Arenado extended.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

DJ is illustrating an issue. Mo needs to trade our quarters for dollars. It opens you up to significant risk with a single injury or downturn, but it must be done to raise the ceiling.

I agree on the analogy. But, in baseball 4 quarters are not equal to a $. We will need to pay more than a $ if we are paying with quarters, correct?

I dont like Arenado in a one year deal. We would have to give up something like Reyes/Weaver/Kellly/another A/AA type prospect for just one year and then he’s gone.

Maybe get a bat that can hit #3 with 3 years of control until Gorman is ready. I know that may be the most valuable player in baseball. But, that’s what we need. Don’t know what that would cost us in trade but I’d do the above deal for something like that.

[jd1020]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

I dont like Arenado in a one year deal. We would have to give up something like Reyes/Weaver/Kellly/another A/AA type prospect for just one year and then he’s gone.

Why the hell would you not make that deal?

If you believe you can't sign a FA of his caliber then you need to trade for it and hope to sell him on the team while he's there.

The only thing you are giving up on is a guy who's next pitch might see his arm go with the ball.