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Old 02-24-2013, 05:14 PM   Topic Starter
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Re: SNR & everybody who claims that the non-Geno talent atop this draft is "garbage."
I recently listed several players that I felt are superior to Geno Smith, all things being equal (including positional value):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
1. OT Luke Joeckel, Texas A&M
2. DE/OLB Bjoern Werner, Florida State
3. DE/OLB Damontre Moore, Texas A&M
4. DE/DT Sheldon Richardson, Missouri
5. DT Star Lotulelei, Utah
6. OT Eric Fisher, Central Michigan
7. CB DeMarcus Milliner, Alabama
8. OT Lane Johnson, Oklahoma
9. DT Johnathan Hankins, Ohio State
10. OG Chance Warmack, Alabama
11. CB Johnathan Banks, Mississippi State
12. DE/OLB Dion Jordan, Oregon
13. S Kenny Vaccaro, Texas.
SNR responded by calling most of them "garbage":

Quote:
Originally Posted by SNR View Post
We're not drafting at #11 overall. We have the first overall pick.

Are any of those guys the best at their respective positions in their draft classes in the past 5 years?

No? How about 3 years?

TWO YEARS, BRO. Can you give me two goddamned years worth of OTs, DTs, OLBs, and CBs and say that any of those players are at the top of the position?
Well, let's take a look, shall we?

Quote:
QBs taken in the Top 10 of the past five years:

2012: Luck, RG3, Tannehill
2011: Newton, Locker, Gabbert
2010: Bradford
2009: Stafford, Sanchez
2008: Matt Ryan

Top 10 OTs of the past five years:

2012: Kalil
2011: Tyron Smith
2010: Trent Williams, Russell Okung (Anthony Davis @ #11)
2009: Jason Smith, Andre Smith, Eugene Monroe
2008: Jake Long

Passrushers taken in the Top 10 of the past five years:

2012: none
2011: Von Miller, Aldon Smith (Watt @ #11)
2010: none
2009: none (Aaron Maybin @ #11)
2008: Chris Long, Vernon Gholston, Derrick Harvey

DTs taken in the top 10 the past five years:

2012: none (Poe @ #11)
2011: Marcell Dareus
2010: Suh, Gerald McCoy, Tyson Alualu
2009: Tyson Jackson, BJ Raji
2008: Glenn Dorsey, Sedrick Ellis

(I don't care about CBs or OGs. You don't take them #1 overall.)
Now, the key here is to try to remember each of these players as prospects, not as the players we know they are now.

At QB, who was a worse prospect than Geno of the above players?

1. Luck
2-tie. RG3/Stafford
3. Ryan
4-tie. Bradford/Sanchez
5. Newton
6. Gabbert
7. Smith
8. Tannehill
9. Locker

At OT, who was a worse prospect than Joeckel, Fisher, or Lane Johnson?

The way I would have ordered them as prospects:

1. Long
2. Okung
3. Williams
4-tie. Joeckel/Kalil
5. Fisher
6. Jason Smith
7-tie. Andre Smith/Monroe/Lane Johnson
8. Tyron Smith

At passrusher, who was a worse prospect than Werner, Moore, or Jordan?

1. Miller
2. Chris Long
3. Aldon Smith
4-tie. Gholston/Werner
5. Moore
6. Harvey
7. Jordan

At DT, who was a worse prospect than Richardson or Hankins? (Star is apparently out of commission as a top 10 pick now.)

1. Suh
2. McCoy
3. Dorsey
4. Dareus
5. Raji
6. Richardson
7-tie. Ellis/Hankins
8. Tyson Jackson
9. Alualu

Now on to my broader point here:

This is how I would rank them as prospects as of now. Of course you could adjust your rankings all over the place.

But the myth that Geno Smith is on par with what we've seen in the past while the other three categories are horrendous nightmares compared to your "usual draft," is just that: a myth.
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:15 PM   #2
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:16 PM   #3
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:43 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun
all things being equal (including positional value)
This is absolute bullshit. The QB is more important than every other position.
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:16 PM   #5
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You're missing out on a key point here.

Number one. Overall. Pick.
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:17 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SNR View Post
You're missing out on a key point here.

Number one. Overall. Pick.
No, I'm responding to the ludicrus bullshit you threw my way, calling all of these prospects "garbage" in earnest.

They are legitimately on par with what we've had in drafts past in the top 10.
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:22 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
No, I'm responding to the ludicrus bullshit you threw my way, calling all of these prospects "garbage" in earnest.

They are legitimately on par with what we've had in drafts past in the top 10.
Fair point. If I may, though, I WAS half kidding. I thought it would be obvious the way I labeled each player a silly brand of garbage like I was playing a game of Duck Duck Goose.

In the meantime, though, my point still stands that none of the non-QBs this year are worthy of the #1 overall pick. I might STILL even argue that half of the guys on your list should be left out of the top 5 considerations in a "normal" draft class. The notable exceptions are the OTs, who for many stated reasons that have been discussed the past 3 months on this BB, should NOT be remotely touched by Kansas City.
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:25 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by SNR View Post
Fair point. If I may, though, I WAS half kidding. I thought it would be obvious the way I labeled each player a silly brand of garbage like I was playing a game of Duck Duck Goose.
Welcome to rationality.

As of February 24th, 2013, we are officially having the conversation we need to be having.
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:36 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Welcome to rationality.

As of February 24th, 2013, we are officially having the conversation we need to be having.
**** you.
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Old 02-24-2013, 09:31 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
No, I'm responding to the ludicrus bullshit you threw my way, calling all of these prospects "garbage" in earnest.

They are legitimately on par with what we've had in drafts past in the top 10.
And so is Geno. That's the whole point. Every argument made against him can be made against any other player at any other position, whether it's Joeckel or anyone else. Because, while I wouldn't call any of them "garbage" myself, the fact remains that this is a very deep draft with very little in the way of elite talent at the top. If somebody can say "I don't want Geno because he's not Luck or Griffin, it's too risky", I have just as much right to say "I don't want Joeckel because he's not Pace or Thomas, and it's not enough value for the pick".

Beyond that, the funniest part to me is that certain people, who seem to be so intent on finding "value" in the draft, go out of their way to devalue players at the quarterback position. You know, the position that is by far the most valuable in today's game.
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:17 PM   #11
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Let's say Kalil is a wash with Joeckel/Fisher.

The Vikings already had their QB. They weren't going to draft another one.
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:18 PM   #12
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Let's say Kalil is a wash with Joeckel/Fisher.

The Vikings already had their QB. They weren't going to draft another one.
But Kalil was a candidate of that caliber, and if the Vikes had passed, Kalil would have been taken soon afterwards. In no universe is he anything other than a Top 10 pick in 2012.

My point is that this year's talent doesn't stack up with the elites, but it's comfortable Top Ten material across the board everywhere but maybe passrusher.
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:17 PM   #13
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:20 PM   #15
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