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Old 09-22-2022, 10:34 AM  
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The mystery of our fascination with Outside Zone

So I'll gladly listen to anyone that wants to correct me on this one, but it sure looks to me like the Chiefs STILL prefer an outside zone running system and for the life of me I cannot figure out why.

There's an article in the Athletic that really sums up my confusing in a lot of ways. It's about the Lions dedication to a power gap scheme. Here's a little blurb that kinda makes my point for me:

Quote:
The popularity of the outside zone system that stems from Kyle Shanahan and Sean McVay has led to more teams employing a Vic Fangio-style defense, which asks defensive linemen to play slower and take on a gap-and-a-half, rather than fly upfield and play only one gap. Theoretically, the defense can live in light boxes and invest more personnel in defending the pass as long as its front can slow down ball carriers long enough for the secondary to help. This works well against zone runs because offensive linemen move laterally, but the Lions like to run right into the teeth of defenses with authority. They want their offensive line, one of the best in the league, firing off vertically and punishing defenders.
https://theathletic.com/3613162/2022...e-ben-johnson/


WHY IS THIS NOT OUR RUNNING GAME!?!?! Teams have been doing that Fangio shit to us for 2+ years now. They're living in light boxes and when we run the ball we're leading with our chins and running this damn outside zone crap that A) Doesn't take advantage of our power blockers as well and B) Lets the defense do what it wants to do, which is use speed and move laterally to race us to the sidelines and seal off big gains. It can essentially run Nickel formations and still manage that.

Maybe they're doing more gap running than I realize or maybe I'm just too damn stupid to see the bigger picture of what they're trying to accomplish.

But man - I will never understand why we haven't made teams 'pick your poison' more. When we run, it should absolutely be a gap scheme designed to just maul guys rather than this outside zone crap that just does them a massive favor while not taking advantage of our OL's greatest strengths.
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Old 09-22-2022, 04:04 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by BWillie View Post
I may have been persuaded but then you brought up....VIC FANGIO.
2 high shell. 4 deep quarters. Whatever you want to call it.

Fangio was doing it back when it wasn't cool and now it seems like everyone is and they're opening themselves up for a power run attack in the process.

I'm trying to find out where the hole in the net is here. It CAN'T be that simple or someone other than Dan !@#$ing Campbell would've figured it out by now. Maybe it's just the natural evolution of the Greg Roman attack?

I dunno...it doesn't make sense to me.
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Old 09-22-2022, 08:23 PM   #32
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[QUOTE=DJ's left nut;16481177]So I'll gladly listen to anyone that wants to correct me on this one, but it sure looks to me like the Chiefs STILL prefer an outside zone running system and for the life of me I cannot figure out why.

There's an article in the Athletic that really sums up my confusing in a lot of ways. It's about the Lions dedication to a power gap scheme. Here's a little blurb that kinda makes my point for me:



https://theathletic.com/3613162/2022...e-ben-johnson/

For whatever reason, the article won't load for me but I'll try to answer as best I can.

Quote:
WHY IS THIS NOT OUR RUNNING GAME!?!?! Teams have been doing that Fangio shit to us for 2+ years now. They're living in light boxes and when we run the ball we're leading with our chins and running this damn outside zone crap that A) Doesn't take advantage of our power blockers as well and B) Lets the defense do what it wants to do, which is use speed and move laterally to race us to the sidelines and seal off big gains. It can essentially run Nickel formations and still manage that.
This is why we (and most teams) run inside zone against nickel. There have been a few teams that are OZ junkies (49ers/GB/Colts with Manning that would just say "**** it, you're not dropping that extra human into the box" that would run it out of trips (with 3W or 2W/1TE on the trips side). However, that has largely gone away with the cutback rules.

Quote:
Maybe they're doing more gap running than I realize or maybe I'm just too damn stupid to see the bigger picture of what they're trying to accomplish.
Chiefs (like most WCO based teams) throw power/gap concepts in as gameplanned concepts and will either lean on them/throw them away based on how they're doing. The E/P offenses of the past used power/gap concepts as their base but even the remnants of it have shifted to probably a 65/35 of OZ/Gap.


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But man - I will never understand why we haven't made teams 'pick your poison' more. When we run, it should absolutely be a gap scheme designed to just maul guys rather than this outside zone crap that just does them a massive favor while not taking advantage of our OL's greatest strengths.
For as much as he gets shit on (and rightfully so) McDaniels was great at blending these philosophies together (especially in no-huddle). There are numerous times where after NE would have a big passing completion where they would either A) Double up on OZ zone and have 3rd and short or B) OZ, then power and then power again.

Haley was a little bit against the grain during his time in Pitt as he would make IZ/Power their base runs (in contrast to Arians who was an IZ/OZ then power as a change up) then throw counter in as his change up (and DeCastro would maul people)
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I have completely given up on Alex Smith as a qb. Its painful to watch. Like, worse than watching Colt McCoy.
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Old 09-22-2022, 08:30 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by DJ's left nut View Post
I wonder if it's strictly a question of timing.

When you're operating from shotgun as much as we do, perhaps it's difficult for OL to time their blocks in a way that the holes are opening inside just as the runner is getting there.

Maybe by emphasizing outside zone the timing works better and the RB can go sideways with the play as the blocks are developing then get downfield as a hole opens.

There has to be something that's making it a necessity for the passing game to function well somehow.
Plenty of teams in college conduct gap schemes from the gun ( Baylor during the Griffin era comes to mind).

The problem is you're now getting (in the nfl) a lot of double A or reduced fronts with pressure coming from all over. With zone, the rules are a lot easier and you can get your guys more reps for a variety of fronts.


IMHO, the cutback rules killed the outside zone and that's why everyone is struggling to run the ball. You can find success for a while with either belief but its ****ing hard to run the ball now.
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I have completely given up on Alex Smith as a qb. Its painful to watch. Like, worse than watching Colt McCoy.
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Old 09-22-2022, 08:32 PM   #34
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Also, I made the comment about us primarily running IZ in nickel.

Before the cutback rules, Philly with Kelly ran a **** ton of OZ out of the gun (you can tell based on the HB alignment)
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I have completely given up on Alex Smith as a qb. Its painful to watch. Like, worse than watching Colt McCoy.
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Old 09-22-2022, 08:44 PM   #35
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It helps dictate the aggressiveness of the defensive front 7, largely, which also helps the passing game... especially so when you start looking at RPOs in my opinion.

If you have a team pressing you and aggressively coming at you, OZ will force them to maintain more discipline in pursuit or they leave huge cutback lanes you wouldn't easily get running straight up their ass in a power scheme. Basically, you don't have a hole, you have many possible holes.

With the RPO, it opens up the middle and backside of the field since the LBs will be flowing to cut the play side edge and maintain gaps so they don't give up big gains.

And, the best, is OZ can be run much more easily out of a variety of formations and personnel groupings, something that is difficult to pull off in a PS.

Andy is running the right scheme.
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Old 09-22-2022, 10:24 PM   #36
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Not to mention that lineman are going to get upfield faster in a gap than a zone blocking scheme, which isn’t ideal in an RPO heavy offense. Not to say you can’t run gap RPO, but you are telling Mahomes not to improv with a gap RPO. Improv is the best part of his game.
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Old 09-22-2022, 10:57 PM   #37
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We're way too predictable at times. I'm with Buehler on playing a little Martyball at times. It's not rocket science, if there's a guy in front of you just kick his ass. If there's not a guy in front of you, find one on the 2nd level and kick his ass. Force those opponents to come out of those deep cover packages.
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Old 09-23-2022, 12:04 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by L.A. Chieffan View Post
Reid has been doing the same running scheme since the old Philly days. I can still picture Brian Westbrook bouncing it to the outside
I wish Clyde would do that more. Dude is way over committed to keeping it between the tackles.
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Old 09-23-2022, 12:11 AM   #39
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The short response I have is simply, "I don't know."

However, I do remember that a very long time ago i read an article that stated that the WC offense was designed around the outside zone scheme. Could it be simply that this is the running scheme Andy just flat knows better than any other? Or that it simply provides the most flexibility for his play designs?

Shit, i don't know. I do know that every now and again I've lamented in a GDT that the Chiefs don't just sometimes ram the ball down the opponent's throats. **** all the fancy-dancy trickery; just everyone go forward, as violently as possible. I believe that KC has the IOL to do that against just about anyone. Though I have to admit that the fancy-dancy shit works way more often than not, so I can't complain as loudly as I'd like.

But sometimes it's just more atavistically satisfying to just punch your opponent in the face. Over and over.

Or so I've been told.
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Old 09-23-2022, 06:49 AM   #40
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For as much as he gets shit on (and rightfully so) McDaniels was great at blending these philosophies together (especially in no-huddle). There are numerous times where after NE would have a big passing completion where they would either A) Double up on OZ zone and have 3rd and short or B) OZ, then power and then power again.

Haley was a little bit against the grain during his time in Pitt as he would make IZ/Power their base runs (in contrast to Arians who was an IZ/OZ then power as a change up) then throw counter in as his change up (and DeCastro would maul people)
This is what I was wondering... why not use them all? I understand that it takes time to install plays, but why not throw in various schemes? A play is a play, it's still X's and O's, who cares what scheme it's built on?

I'm sure there's much more to it than that. Hell, maybe we already do that and it just isn't often enough.
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Old 09-23-2022, 07:02 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Sorter View Post
Plenty of teams in college conduct gap schemes from the gun ( Baylor during the Griffin era comes to mind).

The problem is you're now getting (in the nfl) a lot of double A or reduced fronts with pressure coming from all over. With zone, the rules are a lot easier and you can get your guys more reps for a variety of fronts.


IMHO, the cutback rules killed the outside zone and that's why everyone is struggling to run the ball. You can find success for a while with either belief but its ****ing hard to run the ball now.
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Also, I made the comment about us primarily running IZ in nickel.

Before the cutback rules, Philly with Kelly ran a **** ton of OZ out of the gun (you can tell based on the HB alignment)
You son of a bitch, how are you?

Anyway, when you say "cutback" rules do you mean cutblock?
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Old 09-23-2022, 08:16 AM   #42
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You son of a bitch, how are you?

Anyway, when you say "cutback" rules do you mean cutblock?
I sent out the Sorter signal; he saw I started a thread and thought "Holy crap, I'll bet this is AWESOME..."

Yeah, I presumed he meant the cut-block rules. Though in some ways it seems like those rules should actually make it easier to run an outside zone given that DBs cant submarine those pulling guards anymore.

I hadn't considered the RPO element of it and yeah, that makes a ton of sense. You want your lineman going slow/sideways in an RPO so you don't end up with an ineligible man downfield penalty if the QB elects to pull the ball.

I wonder if that's not the most obvious explanation. Andy didn't use to favor the OZ like he does but that was before the rise of the RPO - so it seems pretty likely that the run design is more likely to follow the pass design than anything. And since you can't really go out there and run two different styles (because again - reps and time are limited), he's just elected to steer into the skid and find a way to get better at OZ runs rather than feature a gap system and try to maul his way between the tackles.

Still seems like an opportunity missed (especially since I'm not a fan of the RPOs at this point either)...
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Old 09-23-2022, 08:18 AM   #43
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This is what I was wondering... why not use them all? I understand that it takes time to install plays, but why not throw in various schemes? A play is a play, it's still X's and O's, who cares what scheme it's built on?

I'm sure there's much more to it than that. Hell, maybe we already do that and it just isn't often enough.
Maybe because Andy builds on his plays throughout the season?

He has plays that I'm convinced aren't designed to score points or even really gain yards. But rather just to be on tape so that teams are aware of it when he uses that same action to rope-a-dope them into a big hitter when he needs it.

The more 'one-off' sort of plays you use, the less you can build on top of them. Especially if you're utilizing multiple systems.
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Old 09-23-2022, 08:38 AM   #44
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I sent out the Sorter signal; he saw I started a thread and thought "Holy crap, I'll bet this is AWESOME..."

Yeah, I presumed he meant the cut-block rules. Though in some ways it seems like those rules should actually make it easier to run an outside zone given that DBs cant submarine those pulling guards anymore.

I hadn't considered the RPO element of it and yeah, that makes a ton of sense. You want your lineman going slow/sideways in an RPO so you don't end up with an ineligible man downfield penalty if the QB elects to pull the ball.

I wonder if that's not the most obvious explanation. Andy didn't use to favor the OZ like he does but that was before the rise of the RPO - so it seems pretty likely that the run design is more likely to follow the pass design than anything. And since you can't really go out there and run two different styles (because again - reps and time are limited), he's just elected to steer into the skid and find a way to get better at OZ runs rather than feature a gap system and try to maul his way between the tackles.

Still seems like an opportunity missed (especially since I'm not a fan of the RPOs at this point either)...
I don't care for the RPO stuff at this point. It just doesn't seem to be what it was a few years back.
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Old 09-23-2022, 08:45 AM   #45
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I don't care for the RPO stuff at this point. It just doesn't seem to be what it was a few years back.
And at the risk of castigating St. Patrick, I think he does those RPO reads these days with a wink and a nod.

He treats an RPO read like Jimbo these days:



If he sees ANY excuse at all to pull the ball, he's gonna. And sometimes I think he pulls it when he doesn't see an excuse. He's just so aggressive on those RPO reads.

I'd probably get rid of them, especially now that we don't have Hill to really create a problem on those quick slants. They served their purpose but I think it's probably getting you diminishing returns at this point.
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