Building a defense in the modern NFL

[Chris Meck]

So, I've been thinking about this all season, and especially after watching Monday's game have some thoughts.

Something Reid said a few weeks back has been on my mind-he said that he thought the future of pass rushing was on the inside, as it's a shorter distance to the QB. Teams are getting the ball out quicker and quicker these days to neutralize that outside pass rush. See Aaron Donald.

1. Corners aren't allowed to play physical anymore. So top end speed, discipline and ball skills are really the only things that matter.

2. Outside pass rushers and CB's are generally the highest paid defenders at the current moment.

3. Interior linemen are, with a few exceptions, undervalued.

4. Safeties have become undervalued, as teams refuse to spend the top dollar on them (other than us with Berry) and instead put that money into CB's. We're speaking relatively here.

I think going forward, I would concentrate on defensive linemen as pass rushers first in the draft and free agency. I would tag Ford next year and let Houston walk after '19. I would sink dollars and high picks into the interior 3 move away from overpaying edge rushers.

I would absolutely sign quality veteran safeties, as to me, they're MORE valuable than corners if this is how the NFL wants to play.

I think every corner gets torched anymore and so this position is no longer worth the premium contract. There's not a lot of difference anymore between a mediocre corner and a great one under these rules. But a smart safety that diagnoses the play and is in the right place is golden. More so than before.

just my thoughts.

[crayzkirk]

This is an interesting topic. The changes in the rules around DBs has made it very difficult to play defense. Even with limited contact, offenses still run rub routes to get players open without really being concerned about the consequences. Being able to dictate what the other team does seems like a good strategy however you have to have the players to do it.

Players like Mahomes have to make it hard of defenses; his is mobile and throws the ball on the run as well as he does in the pocket, maybe better. I'm not sure we are going to see dominant defenses like the Ravens, which the Chiefs routinely torched, again.

It's going to be even tougher if you are always drafting in the end of each round like the Chiefs have been.

[Blick]

I agree that you want to find interior pass rushers. The problem with that is they are far less common than edge rushers. Donald is extremely rare. So I think you'll still see teams go after edge rushers because even though it's a longer route to the QB, it has still been proven effective even in this era.

I have some extreme ideas about secondary play. I disagree with going after safeties unless they are elite cover guys. I think you should go after all corners pretty much unless there are elite safeties. Generally, corners are faster and better cover guys than safeties. You can't hit guys over the middle now, so having an intimidating hitter at safety is useless in this era. I think you go all corners and convert them to safety. That puts more speed and coverage ability on the field. With the way teams spread out on offense now, walking out a safety to go man to man on a TE is kinda pointless. Might as well be a corner, a guy who is more comfortable in that role.

To get even more extreme, I wonder if you couldn't start converting more receivers to corner. With the way you can't use your hands in coverage anymore, having former receivers able to mirror routes and use their ball skills would be interesting. Poor tackling and big plays are going to be the norm anyway. Might as well have a bunch of fast guys out there who can catch the ball on defense.

[KChiefs1]

Saints defense looked good tonight.


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[Demonpenz]

1-10 scheme would be ideal. The 1 get pressure and the other 10 man zone coverage with 2 deep safeties

[jaa1025]

I don't think the offenses have changed much to be honest. There are just more offenses doing what Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees etc led offenses did: Spread teams out and pass more. It's the changing of the guard and scoring will dip as those QB's retire.

2018 is a mere .8 PPG higher than the 2013 season. 2017, scoring was down to the lowest since 2009 at 21.7 PPG, a full point lower at least than the previous 3 seasons.

[kccrow]

My take...

Run a 4-3 base.

Focus on your DTs being smaller, disruptive, pass rusher types. Carry a NT type on the roster just for short yardage. He's kind of like a FB, not really needed too often, but he's needed enough to have someone capable. Your DT's should be your best defensive lineman and you should focus resources there. They are the quickest means to getting to the QB now.

Get edge rushers that can move well enough to get a sack, but don't worry about them being superstars. They must be able to anchor on the outside, maintain gaps, and be rangy and aware enough to defend the outside runs and sweeps. These guys don't have to be your star pass rushers, they just need to be average.

Get two rangy linebackers that can cover and have just enough juice to take on blocks to come downhill. These guys are going to see alot of underneath passing action so they have to be cover first, run second types. Ideally, they are your outside linebackers. Get an ILB that is more of a run defender than pass, but has enough range to cover a TE in the middle zone. This is the guy that will be out there on 1st down and short yardage alot but is the guy coming off the field most often You need a SS/LB hybrid type as well that can replace your ILB on middle-distances downs between 4 and 6 yards or something. This guy isn't really a nickel player but he's got enough beef to play the run yet alot of speed to play the pass. Basically you're going for 2 solid all-around linebackers and using the third like relief pitchers... middle reliever and set up guy.. that gives way to your nickel corner that acts as the closer.

You need one longer CB and at least 2 with speed. You have to be able to match up with teams that employ a bigger wideout so having that bigger CB is important. He doesn't have to be your playmaker, but he should be one of the two starters. Most offenses now have a guy starting with some good speed so your other starter should have it. I think you move your CBs as much you can to keep matchups rather than just R/L like Sutton does. You should have a nickel guy with at least great quickness and hopefully speed as well. You gotta take these quick slots out of the game. I think it's so important now to just have guys that can mirror receivers and not worry about having corners that can press and be physical. There isn't much sense in trying to be physical anymore. One of your starting CBs needs to be a ball-hawking type that can turn the game.

Your safeties have to be able to cover and one needs to be a ballhawk type. I think the days of box safeties are done. Obviously, they have to be good tacklers, but they don't need to be "tone-setters" or "thumpers" back there. Coverage ability is priority one. One safety has to have the size to match up on TEs.

[Naptown Chief]

I have enjoyed the shit out of this thread. I don't really have anything to add, as you all have done a damned fine job of brainstorming and debating. Thank all involved... This was a nice "I can't sleep so lemme check out THE P" treat.

[Naptown Chief]

Originally Posted by dwwataz

I have enjoyed the shit out of this thread. I don't really have anything to add, as you all have done a damned fine job of brainstorming and debating. Thank all involved... This was a nice "I can't sleep so lemme check out THE P" treat.

Oh, because no one else has yet, I'll throw in the obligatory "I hope you get aids from molten lava cum and try to douse it with gasoline that was stored in an antifreeze bottle."

[J Diddy]

Originally Posted by Demonpenz

1-10 scheme would be ideal. The 1 get pressure and the other 10 man zone coverage with 2 deep safeties

Wait. Who's doubling the lineman who reported as an eligible receiver?

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by stevieray

When Chris Jones collapses the pocket....good things happen.

Bailey having a good year helps.

Interior DL are crucial.

Agreed. Having great Interior DL's and Safety's are going to be the keys in the 2019 NFL. Every team will be moving to a high flying offense as soon as possible. They are not going to stop the offenses but they just need to slow then down. We should sign Earl Thomas and spend the 1st and two 2nd's on the DL, safety and ILB.

[chiefzilla1501]

https://beargoggleson.com/2015/01/21...ensive-scheme/

Here you go. We could run this scheme tomorrow. Our personnel isn't that far off. In fact, a lot of it is ideal. And the under scheme is still successful and in this case it's largely run out of 3-4 personnel and allows you to keep our strength which is an elite olb pass rusher.

And they have an experienced coordinator with green bay connections who knows the scheme inside and out in Ed Donatell.

[Demonpenz]

One thing teams are really scouting for is if players raise their hand as a fist as a gesture to everyone that is 4th down. It is really key on 3rd down stops for them to put their fist in the hair while taking out mouthpiece.

[KChiefs1]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

https://beargoggleson.com/2015/01/21...ensive-scheme/



Here you go. We could run this scheme tomorrow. Our personnel isn't that far off. In fact, a lot of it is ideal. And the under scheme is still successful and in this case it's largely run out of 3-4 personnel and allows you to keep our strength which is an elite olb pass rusher.



And they have an experienced coordinator with green bay connections who knows the scheme inside and out in Ed Donatell.

I’ve always enjoyed Fangio’s defenses.

“I think he (Vic Fangio) is one of the all-time best defensive coordinators in the history of the league. I think that’s who he is. I think that’s what his legacy will be someday” – Jim Harbaugh

[Buehler445]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

yes, BUT-with NO, the Rams, and the Chiefs you can't just take away ONE thing and win. We contained Gurley fairly well Monday night, and he's usually what makes that offense go.

My overall point was that for decades, since Lawrence Taylor and Derrick Thomas the edge rusher has been the premium defensive player, along with the shutdown corner. Modern NFL offenses (and the new rules) have conspired to minimize the effectiveness of those positions. Taking Reid's quote to heart I think I'm coming to the conclusion that the interior line and collapsing the pocket from the INSIDE to combat the quick pass is now the only real way to disrupt the pocket QB. Edge rushers like Ford and Houston are nice pieces to have, but are less of a factor than an inside rusher because it takes longer for them to get to the QB and unless they just flat beat the OT the pocket holds together long enough for receivers to clear coverage since you can't touch anyone without a flag.

So what you really need now is smart, disciplined, elite Safety play to minimize gains, tackle well, and take good angles to the ball along with a strong INTERIOR pass rush to force quick throws from a pocket that is collapsing in the QB's face. I just thought it's interesting that the NFL has been an "outside in" defensive trend with CB's and edge rushers dictating the game and now it appears that the opposite is what you should build your defense on.

We have a couple of good edge rushers and they're still good players, but over the next couple of seasons I'd like to see emphasis on acquiring DT's that are a handful as pass rushers, a pair of stud safeties ala Collins, AND Thomas (as I doubt Berry will ever play a full season again even if he does return). Could be that Kpass and Speaks fit as DE's on a four man line; and Houston is stout enough against the run to play DE but Ford doesn't really have a position in a 4-3. He'll be an awful expensive situational pass rusher.

I think we are talking past each other some. It's my fault, I kinda hung a left back there a ways.

What I was saying was going past scheme. IMO, whatever scheme you run, you need to be competent at stopping every aspect of offense, not sell out for stopping the run or piling a bunch of capital in corners.

OCs are smart enough these days to attack you where you're weak rather than "We're a smashmouth team" or whatever like it used to be.

Also, with the rule changes and willingness of offensive staffs to get production out of offenses guys can run, you're just not going to lock down a good team.

Accordingly, you have to have a good offense. Nobody is winning ****all without that. To go with that defense you need to have a defense with competency for all aspects of the game. You won't get a stop every time, but if you're competent, you'll eventually outrun the other offense.

That's the way I see the league these days.

[O.city]

Look at the good defenses. You’ve gotta have 11 talented guys and be fundamentally sound

Physical fast football will always have a place