**** BOB SUTTON

[Chris Meck]

That's it.
You got major upgrades in the front seven. The corners were not the problem today. Guys running free underneath all ****ing day. NO PASS RUSH, rushing two and three guys and Steeler receivers STILL RUNNING FREE UNDERNEATH. Everytime we blitzed, we rushed the throw. Everytime we didn't, Roethlisberger had all ****ing day. No excuse to rush two and three against a HOF QB.

You got younger, and faster. It's not all on the players. It's the scheme. It leaves the defense on the field until they're gassed and give up the big play.

If the scheme is too complicated for your secondary to run, then CHANGE THE SCHEME.

You have an offense that can score at will. Play aggressive and make them match you big play for big play. blitz, pressure, force them to make a big play or a mistake. Sitting back in loose zones all day is NOT WORKING.

**** Sutton.

[ChiefsFanatic]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

Wade Phillips doesn't do that either. You don't call an inferior scheme to accomodate inferior players. They either step up or you get new players.

Are you saying Sutton is as good as Phillips?

I have said this in other threads, mainly the Reid is a Bad Coach thread, but the best thing I can say about Sutton is the Pittsburgh and Tennessee playoff losses are absolutely NOT the on the defense.

His defense absolutely played well enough to win those games.

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[ChiefsFanatic]

Originally Posted by New World Order

Time to unleash...

The Tanoh

After watching him in college, I thought he was going to be great.

What do you think keeps him off the field?

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[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

Dee Ford and Breeland Speaks play the EXACT same position. They were both drafted by the same defensive coordinator.

Their skills sets are POLAR opposites.

But yeah, Bob Sutton is responsible.

I think they see him as Tamba pt.2. We can argue whether that'll ever come to pass, but that's the idea.

[Chris Meck]

I'm no Sutton fan. There is truth that the players are not executing-the tackling other than the first 3 quarters Sunday has been miserable, and that alone keeps this from being a middle of the pack defense.
I think there's way too much worrying about 3-4 vs. 4-3. We are rarely in a base defense anyway, it doesn't really matter.
As a base defense, yeah, it would seem that we have better personnel for a 4-3 but again-we're rarely in it.
I just would prefer to see a Bailey-Jones-Speaks rotation at DE, and a Houston, Ford, Kpass rotation at OLB. Nnadi and Williams rotating at Nose. Keep the big guys and rushers fresh. I want to see O'Daniel as the dimebacker. I want to see Watts and Lucas at S. I'd rather have young, hungry, fast kids making mistakes in the back end than vets that are just slow and lousy.

[rabblerouser]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I have been. I think he's done...fine.

It's a play absolutely nobody will remember but it was after Speaks came into the game. I started watching him because I wanted to see what he could do. Bortles drops back and looks to his left - Sutton had dialed up a zone blitz and had dropped back into the short zone that Bortles intended to throw into. He never saw that zone blitz coming and you could see him flinch. He turned to his right and just gacked the play (I think he threw it into someone's feet or even OOB).

It was a completely benign play that nobody will pay attention to because it worked in a conventional manner - just a simple failed play on defense. People will say Bortles just missed the pass but if you were watching the right space at the right time (I was, purely by accident) you saw a damn creative playcall work to perfection.

Sutton does this far far FAR more often than anyone will recognize. And while he now needs to work on some of his personnel groups - I think you need to be 4-5 games in to really make some of those calls and start shoveling dirt on guys, especially younger ones like Ragland, Murray or Nelson.

Some guys are getting better (Murray and Nelson) others aren't (Ragland). So you start to make different personnel decisions and keep building the defense up.

The D played solid football yesterday and I think Sutton actually called a hell of a game. He was dialing up safety blitzes, fire zones, stunts/twists to find space for someone as generally stiff as Williams.

Sutton is not a problem. He's a fine DC who's trying to feel his way through a roster with some holes. Could we do better at some point in the future? Yeah, very probably. But we could do a hell of a lot worse and we almost certainly would if we tried to pull the trigger right now. Sutton's done a credible job.

Oh, you and your...logic.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Originally Posted by ChiefsFanatic

Sutton isn't responsible for draft picks, he is responsible for putting the players he is given into the best possible position to succeed. He does not do that. He calls plays for his defense, regardless of personnel on the field.

It pisses me off that Reid credits Sutton when Denver and the Jags stop running the football. Denver averaged 7.2 yards per carry, but suddenly started throwing the football while up 10 in the fourth quarter.

And yesterday Yeldon was averaging a little over 5 yards per carry, but down 10 the Jags started passing. Yeldon had 10 carries. We are not good at stopping the run, but the Jags seemed to have no faith in their defense, or were afraid of injury, and Bortles end the game with 61 pass attempts. Again, Yeldon with only 10 carries.

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Originally Posted by htismaqe

Wade Phillips doesn't do that either. You don't call an inferior scheme to accomodate inferior players. They either step up or you get new players.

And now, finally, we arrive at the crux.

Since no one saw fit to answer my question regarding the responsibility of drafting, I will answer it myself:

Bob Sutton( and any other D-Coord working in tandem with an offensive-minded head coach )DOES IN FACT get a say about who the team is going to draft for his side of the ball. To believe otherwise is absurd.
And to call working with what you have to get the best possible result "calling an inferior scheme", shows an arrogance and intractability that is certainly NOT well-founded in proven, successful results for Mr. Sutton.
In other words, Bob doesn't get to have it both ways.
You either claim responsibility for the players you are working with( putting them in a position to succeed and using their god-given talents and strengths to the fullest extent possible ), or you continue trying to put a square peg in a round hole because you are "Bob Sutton, and this is the way you run your defense, no exceptions".

Gee Bob, we're so sorry. We'll run right out and get you a few 3-4 all stars so you can join the rest of the team on the top of the mountain.
Or, Bob, you can take your "Alex Smith's" and TRY to get somewhere in the middle of the rankings while we're working a few drafts to shore things up.

[rabblerouser]

Originally Posted by Jimmya

As Thannon Tharpe said "they gave up clothe to 550 yds of offenthe to Jackthonville, blather blather blather...!"

FYP

[rabblerouser]

Originally Posted by FAX

Let's engage in a thought experiment, Mr. ping2000.

Let's imagine that you are a pioneer and you are heading westward in your brand-new, covered wagon. Your young, beautiful wife and your infant child are in the back and you are driving the wagon. Now, let's say that your young, beautiful wife starts complaining incessantly about how long it's taking to arrive in California territory. You suddenly realize that there's a good chance that your young, beautiful wife doesn't really like the West and will likely divorce you as soon as you reach a decent-sized town. You also notice that one of the horses in your four-hitch is slower than all the others, okay?

Some people would encourage you to tell your wife to hush and behave herself rather than teach your child how to whine like a bitch. Others might suggest instead that you take your gun and shoot the slow horse. Still others might argue that the best course of action is to shoot yourself in the face.

The Chiefs' defensive problems are a lot like that.

FAX

Still more

I got a great belly laugh out of that one, Mr FAX.

[Sannyasi]

Firing Sutton after last year's playoff game and replacing him with some up and comer would have actually been the right political move. It would have increased Reid's esteem with the fans and the media, and improved his job security (not that he needs any more job security).

The fact that he didn't replace Sutton at that point tells me that he actually thinks Sutton is the best man for the job, or at least that the risks of bringing in a fresh DC outweigh the potential benefits in his mind. That its worth it to him to take the hit from the fans in order to have continuity with the defense. You can say Reid is crazy or doesn't know shit about defense, but clearly he actually really believes in Sutton because he's had every opportunity to move on and we know after the Smith situation that Reid isn't going to stick with anyone out of loyalty.

[rabblerouser]

Originally Posted by ChiefsFanatic

Other than Dee Ford, I think we have the slowest linebackers in the NFL. When we picked him up someone told me that Ragland would bring some speed to the linebacking corp, but he is so damn slow. DJ coming off an achilles tendon injury was just as fast. Hitchens isn't exactly a speedster either.

And the All-22 or Coaches Film isn't out on game pass yet, but I know there were a few plays where Sutton had Speaks drop back in coverage, and that dude is pathetically slow. I feel like Sutton, or maybe Reid, is going to damage Speaks' career because with the weight he has gained, he should never play another snap without his hand on the ground. His body says Defensive Lineman, but the depth chart says he is a ROLB. JOKE.

Yes, it was a very good defensive performance against Bortles, but Bortles is like Fitzpatrick, in that when he throws a pick, there are usually a few more coming. And I know Fuller is probably our best corner, but I am starting to see why he was playing the slot. He doesn't seem to be very fast. He seems to get beat by a step or two on most deep routes.

To me, what makes Sutton a terrible DC, and honestly a bad coach in general, is that he doesn't put players in a position to succeed. Houston and Speaks cannot cover anyone in coverage. But since Sutton's defense says the LB drops in coverage on this play, he has whoever is in at that moment drop in coverage. There is not a single offensive player at RB or TE in this league that Houston or Speaks can cover or run with.

In a 3-4 defense, you better have a rock at Nose Tackle, and fast, agile linebackers because 3 down linemen cannot keep the offensive line away from the second level of the defense. You also need corners who excel in man coverage. I think the only 2 players we have that fit a 3-4 scheme are Jones and Bailey.

But Sutton calls plays for his defense and not for his players. No one will ever convince me that it's good football to have Houston cover any offensive player in pass coverage.

Sutton deserves credit for the defense's play yesterday, because he deserves the blame when the defense plays poorly, but the performance yesterday doesn't magically make him a good DC.

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Defensive coordinators don't call plays; they call sets, alignments, and coverages.

The defense has to react to what the offense is doing. It's not as simple as "Houston shouldn't be in coverage"; opposing offenses scheme to get certain matchups, which is why versatility is so valuable, and too many Chiefs defensive players aren't versatile...or are, due to injury or general ineffective play for whatever reason, are a match up liability in pass coverage vs run support or vice versa...

[ChiefsFanatic]

Originally Posted by Claysexual

And now, finally, we arrive at the crux.

Since no one saw fit to answer my question regarding the responsibility of drafting, I will answer it myself:

Bob Sutton( and any other D-Coord working in tandem with an offensive-minded head coach )DOES IN FACT get a say about who the team is going to draft for his side of the ball. To believe otherwise is absurd.
And to call working with what you have to get the best possible result "calling an inferior scheme", shows an arrogance and intractability that is certainly NOT well-founded in proven, successful results for Mr. Sutton.
In other words, Bob doesn't get to have it both ways.
You either claim responsibility for the players you are working with( putting them in a position to succeed and using their god-given talents and strengths to the fullest extent possible ), or you continue trying to put a square peg in a round hole because you are "Bob Sutton, and this is the way you run your defense, no exceptions".

Gee Bob, we're so sorry. We'll run right out and get you a few 3-4 all stars so you can join the rest of the team on the top of the mountain.
Or, Bob, you can take your "Alex Smith's" and TRY to get somewhere in the middle of the rankings while we're working a few drafts to shore things up.

I am sorry, I must have missed your question. If Sutton worked with Reid and Dorsey in helping choose defensive draft picks, he sucks even more than I thought.

The way in which Dorsey failed to improve our secondary and linebacking corps through the draft is one of the reasons I was glad to see him pushed out the door. Now, maybe we will have a Herm Edwards situation, and some of his draftees will develop into productive players in 3 more years, but I doubt it. Dee Ford may be the exception, but he was clueless the first couple of years.

Here is what we drafted defensively (Round/Overall Pick)

2013
Nico Johnson - LB - 4/99
Sander Commings - CB - 5/134
But this draft gave us Travis Kelce at 3/63 and of course, Fisher at 1/1

2014
Dee Ford - LB (listed as a DE) - 1/23
Phillip Gaines - CB - 3/87
But this draft gave us Laurent Duvernay-Tardif at 6/200

2015
Stephen Nelson - CB - 3/98
Ramik Wilson - LB - 4/118
DJ Alexander - LB - 5/172
Rakeem Nunez-Roches - DT - 6/217
But this draft gave us Marcus Peters at 1/18

2016
Chris Jones - DT - 2/37
KeiVarae Russell - CB - 3/74
Eric Murray - CB - 4/106
DJ White - CB - 6/178
Dadi Nicolas - LB - 6/203
But this draft gave us Tyreek Hill at 5/165

2017
Tanoh Kpassagnon - DE - 2/59
Ukeme Eligwe - LB - 5/183
Leon McQuay - S - 6/218
BUT THIS DRAFT GAVE US PATRICK MAHOMES AT 1/10 and Kareem Hunt at 3/86

I am not saying Dorsey missed superstar Corners or Linebackers, but overall his defensive track record is crappy at best.

Between 2013 and 2017 (I didn't include 2018 draft because it's too soon to pass judgment) we drafted 6 linebackers and of those six, only 1 is contributing in a significant way - Dee Ford

In that same time span we drafted 7 secondary players, and only 2 of them are contributing in a significant way - Nelson & Murray. I included Murray because of the INT on MNF, but more often than not he makes very little impact. Peters is one of the seven, but he isn't here anymore.

So, if Sutton had input into drafting defensive players, not only is he bad at evaluating talent, he doesn't understand what type of players he needs to run his defense.


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[rabblerouser]

Originally Posted by ChiefsFanatic

I am sorry, I must have missed your question. If Sutton worked with Reid and Dorsey in helping choose defensive draft picks, he sucks even more than I thought.

The way in which Dorsey failed to improve our secondary and linebacking corps through the draft is one of the reasons I was glad to see him pushed out the door. Now, maybe we will have a Herm Edwards situation, and some of his draftees will develop into productive players in 3 more years, but I doubt it. Dee Ford may be the exception, but he was clueless the first couple of years.

Here is what we drafted defensively (Round/Overall Pick)

2013
Nico Johnson - LB - 4/99
Sander Commings - CB - 5/134
But this draft gave us Travis Kelce at 3/63 and of course, Fisher at 1/1

2014
Dee Ford - LB (listed as a DE) - 1/23
Phillip Gaines - CB - 3/87
But this draft gave us Laurent Duvernay-Tardif at 6/200

2015
Stephen Nelson - CB - 3/98
Ramik Wilson - LB - 4/118
DJ Alexander - LB - 5/172
Rakeem Nunez-Roches - DT - 6/217
But this draft gave us Marcus Peters at 1/18

2016
Chris Jones - DT - 2/37
KeiVarae Russell - CB - 3/74
Eric Murray - CB - 4/106
DJ White - CB - 6/178
Dadi Nicolas - LB - 6/203
But this draft gave us Tyreek Hill at 5/165

2017
Tanoh Kpassagnon - DE - 2/59
Ukeme Eligwe - LB - 5/183
Leon McQuay - S - 6/218
BUT THIS DRAFT GAVE US PATRICK MAHOMES AT 1/10 and Kareem Hunt at 3/86

I am not saying Dorsey missed superstar Corners or Linebackers, but overall his defensive track record is crappy at best.

Between 2013 and 2017 (I didn't include 2018 draft because it's too soon to pass judgment) we drafted 6 linebackers and of those six, only 1 is contributing in a significant way - Dee Ford

In that same time span we drafted 7 secondary players, and only 2 of them are contributing in a significant way - Nelson & Murray. I included Murray because of the INT on MNF, but more often than not he makes very little impact. Peters is one of the seven, but he isn't here anymore.

So, if Sutton had input into drafting defensive players, not only is he bad at evaluating talent, he doesn't understand what type of players he needs to run his defense.


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Sutton has very little, if any, say in who the Chiefs actually draft.

He MAY have some say as to who he prefers, and ReidVeach MAY actually take it into consideration when putting the draft board together...

But Sutton isn't in that draft room with ReidVeach when the players are drafted, so as players come off the board the whole thing changes after the first 5-7 picks, so the amount of impact Sutton can even possibly have in regards to the actual players chosen is minimal.

People are searching for reasons to not like Sutton, it's kind of stupid - Sutton doesn't have any real say in players drafted, and Defenses don't 'run plays'.

Goddamn, some people need to read more/post less.

And watch more football. Even when the offense isn't on the field.

[Chris Meck]

this just in: defensive drafts have been shitty.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by ChiefsFanatic

Those are better for Sutton than I remembered, but they certainly aren't as good as 1995 and 1997.

1995 and 1997 aren't contiguous.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by Claysexual

Bob Sutton( and any other D-Coord working in tandem with an offensive-minded head coach )DOES IN FACT get a say about who the team is going to draft for his side of the ball. To believe otherwise is absurd.

They drafted Dee Ford and then turned around and drafted Breeland Speaks.

It is MUCH more reasonable to believe Bob Sutton suddenly up and changed what he values in a pass rushing linebacker than to believe, Oh I don't know, that THEY CHANGED GENERAL MANAGERS...