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Old 06-27-2016, 11:23 AM  
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Personal finance and investing megathread extravaganza

I know lewdog (and maybe others) have mentioned the desire to have a place to chat about personal finance stuff. We'll see if there's enough interest to keep this going in the long-term, but at least for now, here's a place to chat about whatever personal finance topics come up.



If you're just getting started thinking about saving and don't know where to begin, this flow chart can help. Ask for advice in the thread for more help!

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Old 11-21-2018, 06:26 PM   #2446
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READ YOUR POLICY

This is where I decided not to do it.

The way it was neatly laid out in columns of numbers by the salesman I thought, "Oh, I will have all this cash to draw from in my later years, and still have $500,000 to leave my kids when I die, because the thing is paying for itself at this point"

NOPE

THE CASH VALUE IS THE CASH VALUE OF THE DEATH BENEFIT. Meaning, once you start to draw on the cash value (say you want to pull $40K a year out to supplement your retirement or $20K each year to go on a two-month trip.) that amount is deducted from your death benefit.

Once you pull a bit from your cash value, not only does the death benefit go down, the dividends go down and you have to start paying the premiums again, as the dividends are no longer enough to cover the payments.

That was never explicitly explained to me by the guy and I tried to remain as polite as possible (it was hard) when I told him we weren't going with any of his recommendations.

PLUS, the proposed policy had a $450,000 Long Term care rider, meaning if one of us needed long term care, we could get $9000 a month for that for up to 50 months. Again, I asked questions ,ran some scenarios by him and he told me that the Long term care money would be withdrawn from the death benefit as well!

So, it felt like additional coverage when in fact it was sold like the but really just re-naming activating the cash withdrawal or depletion of the death benefit.

After this was all clear to me, and I was rejecting him he started to say "well nothing is for free, these companies can't stay in business by giving you $950K for a $250 K investment."

Amnorix, you have a death benefit now, and your assertion may be right that if you had chosen term and invested the rest you might be better off, but you have no idea what you would have put that into. Or if you would have forced yourself to invest that much all those years.

Be happy that you have a death benefit and lump sum to pull from but you don't have both -- at least my policy didn't. Check yours. I wouldn't want you to think you have both and come find out years from now what I learned asking all these questions and running multiple scenarios past the guy.

Agreed all around. The death benefit is the cash value plus the guaranteed death benefit. You can withdraw the cash value at any time, but obviously that reduces the amount of the death benefit you get. You could zero out the cash value, leaving only the guaranteed death benefit.

And I also agree that the cash value is what is producing the income that could potentially cover the premium. In my case, the annual dividend/interest (however it is categorized) is approximately equal to the annual premium, which means that if I apply the income to the premium, (1) I don't have to pay the premium out of pocket, and (2) the cash value is not reducing (just not growing) and (3) therefore, the death benefit is not reducing (just not growing).

Of course, the annual income is not -- to my knowledge -- fixed, so in a down economy that amount could be less, and insufficient to cover the premium, meaning that I would either need to come out of pocket to cover the premium, or let the cash value reduce.

Hopefully this all makes sense. Hopefully I have all this RIGHT!!
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Old 11-21-2018, 06:36 PM   #2447
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Interestingly, I'm working up my will and estate plan right now (yeah, I procrastinated), and the attorney said that in Colorado it's not necessary to do a trust. Apparently we have pretty straightforward estate laws so a simple will works well. I was surprised since I'd planned on doing a trust and having the various annoyances that come with setting it up.

Nobody needs to do a trust. Advantages to a trust depending on circumstances:

1. no probate, which means no public filings, revealing the amount of the assets transferred.

2. smoother/quicker transfer of assets. Nothing "hung up" in probate.

3. potential tax advantages (highly dependent on your level of wealth and type of trust). See GRATs for significant evidence of this.

4. potential to put your assets beyond the reach of the state government in the event of end of life medical expenses under Medicare/Medicaid. More on this below.

So in Massachusetts, Medicare/Medicaid (I can never remember which) will cover your nursing home costs (think $10,000/month or whatever) if you are basically impoverished (the old rule was $2,000 or less in assets). If you have more than that, and need to go into a nursing home, then you will be required to spend down your assets until you reach that threshold, at which point the state starts to pay.

So it is common for older people to place the majority of their wealth in a trust as this kind of expense will break all but the most wealthy of people, effectively disinheriting their kids. If the property is in a trust, then it is not the trust res (corpus, actual assets, as opposed to income) is beyond the reach of the state and cannot be applied to these nursing home costs. In Massachusetts, however, there is a five year look-back period, allowing the state to claw back assets placed into trust less than five years prior to whatever the trigger date is (institutionalization, or the date Medicaid started to cover the cost, or whatever).

All this gets tricky/sophisticated, but if you care about preserving your assets in an end-of-life situation where a nursing home can easily eat five figures per month of your life savings, then you should have this in mind.


30 seconds of research suggests this might be a worthwhile website for you to review:

https://www.elderlawcolorado.com/Con...ervation.shtml

See also:

https://www.seniorplanning.org/long-...lity/colorado/


Oh, and good advice: tell your wife to forget about useless life insurance and think about long term care insurance and/or disability insurance

The path to poverty for the upper middle class/lower upper class is disability/invalidity/serious health issues. It stunts or eliminates income while driving costs through the roof for potentially protracted periods of time.
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Old 11-21-2018, 09:17 PM   #2448
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
Nobody needs to do a trust. Advantages to a trust depending on circumstances:

1. no probate, which means no public filings, revealing the amount of the assets transferred.

2. smoother/quicker transfer of assets. Nothing "hung up" in probate.

3. potential tax advantages (highly dependent on your level of wealth and type of trust). See GRATs for significant evidence of this.

4. potential to put your assets beyond the reach of the state government in the event of end of life medical expenses under Medicare/Medicaid. More on this below.

So in Massachusetts, Medicare/Medicaid (I can never remember which) will cover your nursing home costs (think $10,000/month or whatever) if you are basically impoverished (the old rule was $2,000 or less in assets). If you have more than that, and need to go into a nursing home, then you will be required to spend down your assets until you reach that threshold, at which point the state starts to pay.

So it is common for older people to place the majority of their wealth in a trust as this kind of expense will break all but the most wealthy of people, effectively disinheriting their kids. If the property is in a trust, then it is not the trust res (corpus, actual assets, as opposed to income) is beyond the reach of the state and cannot be applied to these nursing home costs. In Massachusetts, however, there is a five year look-back period, allowing the state to claw back assets placed into trust less than five years prior to whatever the trigger date is (institutionalization, or the date Medicaid started to cover the cost, or whatever).

All this gets tricky/sophisticated, but if you care about preserving your assets in an end-of-life situation where a nursing home can easily eat five figures per month of your life savings, then you should have this in mind.


30 seconds of research suggests this might be a worthwhile website for you to review:

https://www.elderlawcolorado.com/Con...ervation.shtml

See also:

https://www.seniorplanning.org/long-...lity/colorado/


Oh, and good advice: tell your wife to forget about useless life insurance and think about long term care insurance and/or disability insurance

The path to poverty for the upper middle class/lower upper class is disability/invalidity/serious health issues. It stunts or eliminates income while driving costs through the roof for potentially protracted periods of time.
I was told in AZ a trust does a variety of things. We are 33 years old and just had a kid so delineating assets, in case of death is on my mind with a child involved now.

1. It avoids probate which can take years? Is years really true?
-It also avoids probate fees which can be 5% of assets!

2. It limits who has access, can claim access and how much of your assets they can acquire at one time if needed.

3. Would delineate a set amount to be given to children, if both parents die, so your child doesn't blow through their entire inheritance.
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Old 11-21-2018, 10:05 PM   #2449
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Probate takes years if there are disputes among the people making claims. Other wise it takes months, usually more than just a few.
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Old 12-01-2018, 09:17 PM   #2450
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US, China reach 90-day ceasefire on tariffs in trade dispute


Quote:
BUENOS AIRES, Argentina (AP) — The United States and China reached a 90-day ceasefire in a trade dispute that has rattled financial markets and threatened world economic growth. The breakthrough came after a dinner meeting Saturday between President Donald Trump and Chinese leader Xi Jinping at the Group of 20 summit in Buenos Aires.

Trump agreed to hold off on plans to raise tariffs Jan. 1 on $200 billion in Chinese goods. The Chinese agreed to buy a “not yet agreed upon, but very substantial amount of agricultural, energy, industrial” and other products from the United States to reduce America’s huge trade deficit with China, the White House said.

The truce buys time for the two countries to work out their differences in a dispute over Beijing’s aggressive drive to supplant U.S. technological dominance.
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Old 12-02-2018, 07:39 PM   #2451
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Old 12-02-2018, 07:40 PM   #2452
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Looks like tomorrow is going to be a good day.



Let's roll mother****ers!!!

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Old 12-02-2018, 08:31 PM   #2453
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Old 12-02-2018, 08:33 PM   #2454
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I bet I sell IQ in a week or two

I'm not giving it a second chance if it gets within a few thousand of where it was
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Old 12-02-2018, 09:03 PM   #2455
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I was told in AZ a trust does a variety of things. We are 33 years old and just had a kid so delineating assets, in case of death is on my mind with a child involved now.

1. It avoids probate which can take years? Is years really true?
-It also avoids probate fees which can be 5% of assets!

2. It limits who has access, can claim access and how much of your assets they can acquire at one time if needed.

3. Would delineate a set amount to be given to children, if both parents die, so your child doesn't blow through their entire inheritance.
I can't speak to any state other than Massachusetts, but probating a simple estate is not a multiyear process, and even if the formalities take a while, usually it is not that hard to get access to the assets.

I mean, if you're an ordinary couple, then:

1. your house is owned jointly, so it passes automatically upon death without going through probate.

2. your bank accounts and investment accounts are held jointly, so that too goes through probate.

3. your 401(k) etc. often have a named beneficiary, so it will pass outside of probate to your named beneficiary.

So yeah, usually not THAT big of a deal to go through probate, but some of the above may be part of the taxable estate which could have an impact, depnding on the state, and there may be other assets that do need to pass through probate, which can be a pain.

BUT -- KEY CAUTION -- I AM NOT AN WILLS/TRUSTS/ESTATES LAWYER AND THIS IS A F'ING WEBSITE. The legal advice I give is worth about what you're paying for it -- nothing. Seek professional advice from a lawyer with expertise in this issues IN YOUR STATE.
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Old 12-02-2018, 09:10 PM   #2456
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I bet I sell IQ in a week or two

I'm not giving it a second chance if it gets within a few thousand of where it was
It's not doubling in price that quickly to get back to where you bought it.

I doubt it sees $40 in the next 6 months.
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Old 12-02-2018, 09:11 PM   #2457
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It's not doubling in price that quickly to get back to where you bought it.

I doubt it sees $40 in the next 6 months.
Of course not but over 30 would be nice
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Old 12-02-2018, 09:18 PM   #2458
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I can't speak to any state other than Massachusetts, but probating a simple estate is not a multiyear process, and even if the formalities take a while, usually it is not that hard to get access to the assets.

I mean, if you're an ordinary couple, then:

1. your house is owned jointly, so it passes automatically upon death without going through probate.

2. your bank accounts and investment accounts are held jointly, so that too goes through probate.

3. your 401(k) etc. often have a named beneficiary, so it will pass outside of probate to your named beneficiary.

So yeah, usually not THAT big of a deal to go through probate, but some of the above may be part of the taxable estate which could have an impact, depnding on the state, and there may be other assets that do need to pass through probate, which can be a pain.

BUT -- KEY CAUTION -- I AM NOT AN WILLS/TRUSTS/ESTATES LAWYER AND THIS IS A F'ING WEBSITE. The legal advice I give is worth about what you're paying for it -- nothing. Seek professional advice from a lawyer with expertise in this issues IN YOUR STATE.
I understand. I do appreciate your thoughts on probate though. Everyone seems to make it a big deal and says that if you have any kind of assets and kids, you should have a Trust.

My biggest reason for having a Trust would be to delineate monetary assets such as investments, so say my 12 year old son wasn't placed with a lump sum of cash and instead you could delineate money to him over decades if needed.

What happens in that scenario where both parents die and let's say have a sum of $250k in investment accounts? They only have one child, who let's say is 10 years old. If they have no trust does that minor really become the sole beneficiary of that lump sum?
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Old 12-03-2018, 06:56 AM   #2459
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Old 12-03-2018, 10:50 AM   #2460
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I understand. I do appreciate your thoughts on probate though. Everyone seems to make it a big deal and says that if you have any kind of assets and kids, you should have a Trust.

My biggest reason for having a Trust would be to delineate monetary assets such as investments, so say my 12 year old son wasn't placed with a lump sum of cash and instead you could delineate money to him over decades if needed.

What happens in that scenario where both parents die and let's say have a sum of $250k in investment accounts? They only have one child, who let's say is 10 years old. If they have no trust does that minor really become the sole beneficiary of that lump sum?

Yes, but what will happen in the real world is a guardian would be appointed because nobody is going ot hand a kid $250K in cash. He doesn't have legal capacity to even enter into a contract for God's sake.

So hopefully some family member who isn't in it to steal the money for himself/herself steps up, otherwise a bunch of family members potentially fight over the appointment, etc. But if you set up your estate plan that can be in what is called a pourover trust, where your assets (other than specific bequests and the like) are poured over into a trust that exists on paper but has nothing and does nothing until/unless you die, at which point it goes into the trust. The trustee is whoever you appointed etc. etc.

Different trusts for different purposes. But yes, if you have underage kids, at least a pourover trust is a damn good idea.
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