Hey now.

Pete only mutilated his first Moog.

We are in complete agreement, Mr. DaneMcCloud.

I, myself, once drilled a hole in the neck of a Les Paul for the purpose of holding a cigarette while performing.

FAX

I sure as hell hope it wasn't a 54-59!

Anything from 1972 to 1988 is acceptable for mutilation.

Waterlogged pieces of shit.

:D

I'd recommend the Norton Shakespeare, if one were inclined to spend the money.

But I really don't know who this Shakespeare cat is.

Your point is well made, Mr. cdcox. I concede it to you. As you mention it, it becomes clear that Beethoven did, indeed, provide a template for future generations of musicians with a desire to explore the various means whereby instrumentation could be modified in pursuit of creative ends.

We would be remiss, however, to leave Dr. Albert Hofmann's contributions out of the discussion.

FAX

Anybody ever read Bartleby the Scrivener?

It was horribly boring, but rather profound.

Our dear late (but never forgotten) friend Mr. Glenn Gould would argue differently

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Cases can be made for all three (Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven) advancing compositional expression. Particularly with Haydn, since both Mozart AND Beethoven were pupils of his. What they did, however, was moreso advance the Italian school of Baroque expression established by characters such as Monteverdi in the 16th century and inject it into the large symphonic forms. Additionally, both figures played a large part in cementing those as the firm forms. Sonata-allegro 1st movements, if not previously firmly established, were certainly done with Haydn (104 symphonies will tend to influence music that way). Also, Haydn is considered by most musicologists to be the father of the string quartet in the way they were composed. Mozart and Beethoven had to be deeply inspired in their quartet compositions, especially Beethoven, who took Haydn's work and added one more step.

However, it's what Gould talks about in that video that seperates Beethoven from the lot. As he lost his hearing, he appears to also have lost his patience for established sonata-allegro forms. Beginning with middle piano sonatas in 1810, he worked in the 2-movement form, and as this Op. 109 shows (from his last 5 piano sonatas) he was nearly CONSTRICTED by what was expected from good music those days. Because he was the first composer to really be a private journeyman, and not compose under the patronage system, he was allowed to create these incredibly complex works after he had established himself in Vienna, the music capital of the world. And he appears to have done marvelously for himself.

Here are the first two movements of the Op. 109 sonata Glenn Gould discusses. You'll see it's very unconventional. Serkin's a master at his age, at any rate.

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By the way, I can't thank you enough for creating this thread, FAX. I've tried starting other threads like this that have gone over like the Dresden premiere of Schumann's 2nd symphony. May this one last longer.

You are more than welcome, Mr. SNR. Also, I look forward to reading your prior post, although it will have to be in the morning as the hour is late and there is much to be done this weekend ... or so the beautiful and witty Mrs. FAX informs me.

As for our mutual desire that this thread be successful, I think the best thing to do is to occasionally post a riddle. After all, the riddle has a distinguished literary history dating back to antiquity and, through the means of allegory or metaphor, has challenged the wit of great men from time immemorial. With that in mind, I offer ...

It's true I bring serenity,
And hang around the stars,
But yet I live in misery,
You'll find me behind bars.
With thieves and villains I consort,
In prison I'll be found,
But I would never go to court,
Unless there's more than one.

FAX

You know how I know you guys are gay?

You need some damn culture, dude.

FAX

It's early, and 80% of my synapses are still asleep, but I'll throw out for dissection the structural similarities between;

The 1812 Overture,
Stairway to Heaven,
Sweet Child 'O Mine, and

Coitus.

ROFL - how weird, but if I were to guess the answer could not be found in google, . . . but with google search, it'd be right there front and center.

Well, as we all know, Mr. Baby Lee, googling riddle answers ain't none too cultured.

FAX

Last night on Home Improvement Wilson told Tim Aristotle's quote about Plato being dear to him but truth being dear still.

Right after that I watched an hour long infomercial about Flirty Girl Fitness.

THAT is culture.