A lot of it also was the cast around him and the style of offense that Reeves ran... Reeves wasn't near as conservative as Fox, but Reeves wasn't a pass happy oriented type of coach.

I do like to read comments about how they never won a title until Shanahan came in and it was all Davis. There aren't many QBs out there that have taken teams with a cast of characters like Denver had and won a lot of SBs. They had good teams, but they ere never dominant on the ground game. I mean, his best WRs were the Three Amigos - good, but they weren't the Marks brothers.

And, it's always interesting to see when fans like to use (or ignore) stats in favor of the side of the debate they're hammering.

Under Reeves:
9-7
13-3
11-5
11-5
10-4
8-8
11-5
5-11
12-4
8-8

Under Wade Phillips:
9-7
7-9

Under Shanahan:
8-8
13-3
12-4
14-2

16 Seasons ... 2 were 8-8 and 2 were under .500 ... 12 were 9+ wins

14-8 Postseason Record
5 SB appearances with 2 wins

Yes, they never dominated and won titles until Shanahan put a "team" around him... but the guy certainly didn't spare everyone to death in the years before Shanahan.

Elway retired as the QB with the most wins... bottom line, he was great.

Marino did great things in 1984... and that was THE ONLY season in which his teams won more than 1 playoff game... so he doesn't really fit your comment in bold above. Marino and his teams, from 1985 through 1999 never won more than 1 playoff game in a single season.

Big Ben ... yes, he fits - but you can't compare the team he had around him to what Dan or John had early in their careers.

I speak only the humble truth with my statistics. I repeat my question: would we be happy with a #1 pick QB who started for a decade and annually produced 16 TDs, 16 Ints, 3,000 yards, and a QB rating of 74?

Players who produced a rating in the 70 to 75 range this year were Josh Freeman, Colt McCoy, Tim Tebow, Rex Grossman, Christian Ponder, and Sam Bradford.

LOL @ anybody who thinks Elway was a terrible QB. Hate him all you want, but he was great.

i never liked the guy .. he got too lucky against us too many times ......

I'm not saying he was terrible. He was almost as good as Jim Everett, and I thought Everett was a halfway decent quarterback.

:LOL: Comparing the NFL and the style of play from two eras that are 20 years apart... good luck.

Statistics are great though... in that 10 year span, he had 6 seasons over 16 TD passes... 6 with fewer than 16 INTs.

Again, different era and had he been in an offense with a pass friendly coach like Shula... yeah, he'd have the numbers that Marino put up.

Just deal with it...

I guess you missed the post comparing Elways stats to those of the same era.

Don't get me wrong, I think Elway is one of the five best of all time, but he did have pretty average stats.

Elway's annual rank in QB rating over the course of his career.

1983 - 27th
1984 - 17th
1985 - 17th
1986 - 11th
1987 - 12th
1988 - 18th
1989 - 17th
1990 - 14th
1991 - 19th
1992 - 20th
1993 - 3rd
1994 - 4th
1995 - 14th
1996 - 4th
1997 - 7th
1998 - 5th

Granted, from 1993 on he was productive, once new coaches arrived on the scene who recognized that he was more of a complementary player than a star to build around. Once they shifted the focus to other, better players, Elway did fine as a second banana type of quarterback.

Why?

Elway's annual rank in passing yards over the course of his career.

1983 - 28th
1984 - 15th
1985 - 2nd
1986 - 9th
1987 - 4th
1988 - 8th
1989 - 16th
1990 - 5th
1991 - 8th
1992 - 18th
1993 - 1st
1994 - 8th
1995 - 5th
1996 - 7th
1997 - 6th
1998 - 12th

So what we see here is the secret to why some people think Elway was "great". While he was a very inefficient quarterback, he got many, many chances to pile up statistics. Even then he was only in the top 10 percent of the league 2 years out of 16, but the bottom line is that he was given lots of opportunities despite his mediocre performance and was never benched, allowing him to pile up stats over the course of his so-called career.

I know that stats are the end-all. But ever watch him play?

Rain Man ... stats are your game for sure. You enjoy what you're doing if it makes you feel better, the bulk of us saw the games. If you want to rank him up there with guys like Jim Everett - you have fun, buddy.

It's too silly for me to get caught up with it to be quite honest with you. You have a great skill for the spin. One thing that is funny is how you say his stats got better when he was surrounded by better players, suggesting that he no longer had to be the man or the best player on the team.

How about all those wins? Very consistent throughout his career... whether he was surrounded by "ok talent" or "great talent". Obviously the personal stats improve when you have better players around you.

Look how Marino's stats dropped later in his career, during the last 7-8 years. Marino didn't improve with age. No, as the team became a bit void of talent... and entering a more 'pass friendly era' in the NFL, Marino became less prolific... while Elway became more prolific.

Interesting when you peel back that onion.

Rain Man trolling Donkey fans? Awesome.

That has to be one of the most heroic SB stories of all time, in my opinion. Phil Simms winning a SB from the bench? I don't think there's any way that ever gets topped.

You sure do think QB rating is the most important thing ever don't you?

So by your logic Cassel > Elway.

Solid logic. Not flawed at all.

I hate elway more than any player ever, and it's not because he was an average QB. I can't believe anyone could watch him play and say this nonsense. Elway could do things on a football field that nobody has done before or since.