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-   -   Life so how do you guys feel about punching females? (https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=185207)

CHENZ A! 05-26-2008 08:54 PM

so how do you guys feel about punching females?
 
In the face I mean...

I have never, and would never punch a woman unless it was a matter of life and death.

Reason I ask is because last night some crazy bitch at the bar I am a bouncer at threw a beer in my face, and stabbed me in the neck with her keys multiple times. I think any normal person would've beat the shit out of that bitch.

I had ahold of one of her arms, and one of her boyfriends arms and he was trying to swing at me from behind her. So not only could I not punch her because she appeared to be female(even though she probably did have testicles), I couldn't hit him either because I didn't want to accidentally hit her. Then they pressed charges against ME because her boyfriends arm is bruised from where I grabbed ahold of him. I am pressing charges as well, and I feel that I'll definetely be vindicated as our bar has cameras, but ****, what a bad night.

I am so furious right now, and am just worried that these people will be able to get away with this if for some reason there is a problem with the tapes. If it was just a dude it would've been no problem I could've stomped him out easily, but that's always an extreme last resort, I hate fighting and do not claim to be a tough guy(got that out of my system earlier in life). I'd rather be the nice guy, but I am too proud to let that shit slide. I want these people to pay.

Any legal advice would be much appreciated.

What would it take for you to punch a broad?

Hammock Parties 05-26-2008 08:56 PM

I'm all for it. Bitches need a good black eye every now and then. If some skank ever gets physical with me I won't hesitate to land a haymaker right in her pretty little gut. If she persists, it's face clobberin' time, whore.

Smed1065 05-26-2008 08:57 PM

Idiot so far...

Monty 05-26-2008 08:57 PM

I had a girlfriend back in the day that had two black eyes......






I had to tell her twice. ;)




Of course, I'm only joking and would NEVER condone striking a woman. :)

Basileus777 05-26-2008 08:59 PM

If someone stabbed me in the neck with keys, I'd at least punch whoever did it, no matter who it was. I'd do more if it was a man. I wouldn't hit a woman except in an extreme case, but thats just crossing the line. You can't do something like that and expect your gender to protect you.

Friendo 05-26-2008 08:59 PM

keys to the neck might've done it for me--I admire your restraint. just curious-what precipitated the beer toss?

milkman 05-26-2008 08:59 PM

I have no problem with puching females, as long as they are punching other females.

redbrian 05-26-2008 09:00 PM

If your bar is still using a tape machine tell the cheap bastard owner to upgrade to a DVR. the images are much better and can really be the diff. in a case like this.....

beach tribe 05-26-2008 09:01 PM

You did the right thing. Good man.

Under no circumstance do you fist a bitch in the face, unless she has a knife, or another weapon that seriously threatens your safety.

I hope those tapes show the truth, and that bitch gets what she deserves.

CHENZ A! 05-26-2008 09:02 PM

The 3 dots below the scrathes/bruising, are actually bruises as well from keys that went straight on.

http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/2239/img00062gm5.jpg

Hammock Parties 05-26-2008 09:02 PM

What I'd really like to do is cut a woman's hair off while she sleeps. Revenge!

beach tribe 05-26-2008 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Basileus777 (Post 4768816)
If someone stabbed me in the neck with keys, I'd at least punch whoever did it, no matter who it was. I'd do more if it was a man. I wouldn't hit a woman except in an extreme case, but thats just crossing the line. You can't do something like that and expect your gender to protect you.

Give her the pimp slap.

Chiefs Pantalones 05-26-2008 09:03 PM

The girl would have to be threatening my life in order for me to impose any harm her way. I guess you didn't feel she was threatening your life by stabbing her keys into your throat, but that's just you lol ;) Big ups on keeping a cool head though man. You're going to win the case, so don't worry about it.

smittysbar 05-26-2008 09:03 PM

I tell my wife everyday, "Woman I am going to stop raising my voice and start raising my hand". Puts her in line.





yeah, kidding. Never would

beach tribe 05-26-2008 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHENZ A! (Post 4768825)
The 3 dots below the scrathes/bruising, are actually bruises as well from keys that went straight on.

http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/2239/img00062gm5.jpg

Those pics will certainly help your case.

Chiefs Pantalones 05-26-2008 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHENZ A! (Post 4768825)
The 3 dots below the scrathes/bruising, are actually bruises as well from keys that went straight on.

http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/2239/img00062gm5.jpg

Just tell your friends they're sex marks. ;)

Skip Towne 05-26-2008 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GOATSE (Post 4768808)
I'm all for it. Bitches need a good black eye every now and then. If some skank ever gets physical with me I won't hesitate to land a haymaker right in her pretty little gut. If she persists, it's face clobberin' time, whore.

She will kick your pudgy ass.

petegz28 05-26-2008 09:05 PM

Agreed...grab them, throw them off of you, restrain them but not face punch them unless a table leg is going upside your head. In which case I think I almost broke an old girlfriend's shoulder when I tagged her so hard in her arm after she did that to get her the **** off of me. And yes I went to jail though I was literally getting a psycho bitch off of me that was nailing me with a table leg. I had a busted lip, knots all over my head and I went to jail for punching her in the arm so hard that it knocked her down to get her off me.

Donger 05-26-2008 09:06 PM

Never.

Chiefs Pantalones 05-26-2008 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanilla Thunder (Post 4768829)
The girl would have to be threatening my life in order for me to impose any harm her way. I guess you didn't feel she was threatening your life by stabbing her keys into your throat, but that's just you lol ;) Big ups on keeping a cool head though man. You're going to win the case, so don't worry about it.

Also, they'll probably end up dropping the charges anyway. White trash people that engage in stuff like this usually ride their emotions and make quick, stupid decisions (like stabbing you in the throat). Later on though, thankfully for themselves and their financial well-being, they smarten up a bit and drop the charges in most cases.

Hammock Parties 05-26-2008 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skip Towne (Post 4768834)
She will kick your pudgy ass.

I'm not as pudgy as I once was, old man. I bet I could punch right through your face.

acesn8s 05-26-2008 09:08 PM

Punch? No. But you should have grabbed the back of her head and face planted it into the ground COPS style.

CHENZ A! 05-26-2008 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Friendo (Post 4768818)
keys to the neck might've done it for me--I admire your restraint. just curious-what precipitated the beer toss?

The bar was closed, and I was pulling beers. I grabbed her boyfriend's, and he grabbed my hand. I told him to let go, then I told him let go NOW and leave. he didn't let go, so I just crushed the plastic cup with my hand and the beer spilled on the table. We walk around and give everyone a 5 min warning before we're going to pull them anyway, and this wasn't even the first table that I had gone up to. I never cursed or called names or anything, I just told him matter of factly to LEAVE NOW. thats it.

2112 05-26-2008 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHENZ A! (Post 4768825)
The 3 dots below the scrathes/bruising, are actually bruises as well from keys that went straight on.

http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/2239/img00062gm5.jpg

Consider yourself lucky, bro. I once saw one nut job chick throw a bottle of beer like a tomahawk at her boyfriend inside a bar, she missed him and hit some innocent bystander in the nose smashing his face apart pretty badly. the bottle was almost empty, giving it maximum lethality. she just walked out of the bar and took off.

Spicy McHaggis 05-26-2008 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHENZ A! (Post 4768847)
The bar was closed, and I was pulling beers. I grabbed her boyfriend's, and he grabbed my hand. I told him to let go, then I told him let go NOW and leave. he didn't let go, so I just crushed the plastic cup with my hand and the beer spilled on the table. We walk around and give everyone a 5 min warning before we're going to pull them anyway, and this wasn't even the first table that I had gone up to. I never cursed or called names or anything, I just told him matter of factly to LEAVE NOW. thats it.

And they reacted like that? That sucks. Intoxicated people are usually so rational too.



Do you have an attorney already?

Mr. Flopnuts 05-26-2008 09:11 PM

That's a shitty situation. I say smack a ho. WTF? Why not? It's almost an insult if you don't. Title IX or some shit. Equal rights means putting the water bottle on the container at the office, and gettin hit like a man if you hit like a man. A wife and mother is really the only exceptions to this rule for me. But then again, I'm kind of an asshole. I'd also say, that I have never had to put myself to the test as the situation has never arose. I may not have the balls to follow through with that.

banyon 05-26-2008 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GOATSE (Post 4768808)
I'm all for it. Bitches need a good black eye every now and then. If some skank ever gets physical with me I won't hesitate to land a haymaker right in her pretty little gut. If she persists, it's face clobberin' time, whore.

Good thing we never have to worry about that.

Bugeater 05-26-2008 09:13 PM

You did the right thing. I can't imagine any charges sticking, the fact that you (I'm assuming?) were sober and they were drunk would put the benefit of the doubt in your favor. And from what I see in that pic, she should've been arrested for assault. I'd like to know why she wasn't.

2112 05-26-2008 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by banyon (Post 4768860)
Good thing we never have to worry about that.

:LOL:

CoMoChief 05-26-2008 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GOATSE (Post 4768808)
I'm all for it. Bitches need a good black eye every now and then. If some skank ever gets physical with me I won't hesitate to land a haymaker right in her pretty little gut. If she persists, it's face clobberin' time, whore.

:LOL:

This is the only thing GOATSE has said that I have laughed at. That's funny right there.

CHENZ A! 05-26-2008 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spicy McHaggis (Post 4768853)
And they reacted like that? That sucks. Intoxicated people are usually so rational too.



Do you have an attorney already?

Haven't contacted one, it just happened last night.. Haven't needed one since I changed my ways a couple yrs back.

I wonder if I could agree to drop the charges and settle out of court? The system gets enough money, I could use some cash for bills, we're in a recession! LMAO

banyon 05-26-2008 09:16 PM

Did you call the police?

You need to file a police report sometimes within as little as 48 hours. You need names and numbers of witnesses. I hope someone besides yourself took that photo.

If you did all that, there's probably not a need to hire a private attorney, the police will file the charges with the DA's office and at the very least you will get any medical bills paid out of the restitution, even if they cut a deal with the stabby bitch. Unless you've got some lazy prosecutors, then you'llneed to assemble all that evidence yourself and take her to small claims court probably.

In Kansas you're not entitled to pain and suffering unless you have over $2k in medical bills, so it won't probably be cost-effective to actually hire a private attorney.

(Coincidentally, I have my first jury trial rommorrow, and it is a battery case.)

Skip Towne 05-26-2008 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beach tribe (Post 4768831)
Those pics will certainly help your case.

Just hand the judge an 8X10 of this pic and walk away free.

CHENZ A! 05-26-2008 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoBo (Post 4768861)
You did the right thing. I can't imagine any charges sticking, the fact that you (I'm assuming?) were sober and they were drunk would put the benefit of the doubt in your favor. And from what I see in that pic, she should've been arrested for assault. I'd like to know why she wasn't.

the police said that since there were witnesses(the two drunks friends) who told a different story of how it went down, that if they arrested them then they'd have to arrest me too because it is a he said/She said situation.

I have some questions for the officer that filed the report, but she doesn't get on duty until 11PM. I need sleep, this bouncer deal is just a 1-2 night a week gig, I have a day job that I had to be at this morning and I'm on like 3.5 hrs of sleep. Thats why I'm on here ranting to stay awake. :banghead:

Rausch 05-26-2008 09:21 PM

Why would you treat a woman any differently than a man in this situation?

You sexist?

I don't think hitting anyone is a good idea unless it's self defense or defending someone else. Someone insulting you or slapping you isn't a danger to your person. Walk away.

If someone's swinging with a closed fist or thrusting sharp objects it's time to protect yourself...

Friendo 05-26-2008 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by banyon (Post 4768868)
Did you call the police?

You need to file a police report sometimes within as little as 48 hours. You need names and numbers of witnesses. I hope someone besides yourself took that photo.

If you did all that, there's probably not a need to hire a private attorney, the police will file the charges with the DA's office and at the very least you will get any medical bills paid out of the restitution, even if they cut a deal with the stabby bitch. Unless you've got some lazy prosecutors, then you'llneed to assemble all that evidence yourself and take her to small claims court probably.

In Kansas you're not entitled to pain and suffering unless you have over $2k in medical bills, so it won't probably be cost-effective to actually hire a private attorney.


unless of course as previously mentioned, you're a familiar face at the DA's ofc...just sayin.

WilliamTheIrish 05-26-2008 09:23 PM

Jayzus Christ!!

You be certain to show those photos. Those slashes are fairly close to your carotid artery. She clips that and you could have bled out or been in a serious medical emergency.

I'm going to say right now, that if you did hit her, and I were on the jury, you're acquitted.

CHENZ A! 05-26-2008 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by banyon (Post 4768868)
Did you call the police?

You need to file a police report sometimes within as little as 48 hours. You need names and numbers of witnesses. I hope someone besides yourself took that photo.

If you did all that, there's probably not a need to hire a private attorney, the police will file the charges with the DA's office and at the very least you will get any medical bills paid out of the restitution, even if they cut a deal with the stabby bitch. Unless you've got some lazy prosecutors, then you'llneed to assemble all that evidence yourself and take her to small claims court probably.

In Kansas you're not entitled to pain and suffering unless you have over $2k in medical bills, so it won't probably be cost-effective to actually hire a private attorney.

(Coincidentally, I have my first jury trial rommorrow, and it is a battery case.)

Myself, and the other bouncer made them wait outside til the police got there. the police took pictures as well, but thats what worries me because of the bruising on the boyfriends arm they were able to make me an assault suspect. ****ing ridiculous.

banyon 05-26-2008 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHENZ A! (Post 4768874)
the police said that since there were witnesses(the two drunks friends) who told a different story of how it went down, that if they arrested them then they'd have to arrest me too because it is a he said/She said situation.

I have some questions for the officer that filed the report, but she doesn't get on duty until 11PM. I need sleep, this bouncer deal is just a 1-2 night a week gig, I have a day job that I had to be at this morning and I'm on like 3.5 hrs of sleep. Thats why I'm on here ranting to stay awake. :banghead:

That's not good. You need some strangers on your side. People who weren't the drunk's friends and aren't regulars or coworkers.

Hammock Parties 05-26-2008 09:26 PM

WHAM!

I bet female bones break real easily.

CHENZ A! 05-26-2008 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Friendo (Post 4768877)
unless of course as previously mentioned, you're a familiar face at the DA's ofc...just sayin.

I am NOT a felon, but I made some mistakes yrs ago that I learned from. Hopefully that won't be held against me. It shouldn't have any bearing in my opinion.

blueballs 05-26-2008 09:27 PM

As long as you're not a CHiefs running back
nobody would've get outraged if you had

Donger 05-26-2008 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GOATSE (Post 4768887)
WHAM!

I bet female bones break real easily.

Why would you think that?

Hammock Parties 05-26-2008 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donger (Post 4768892)
Why would you think that?

It must be my incredible upper-body strength. Most things tend to break easily under my assault. I walked into a door today and took it right off the hinge.

petegz28 05-26-2008 09:29 PM

I think a good and greedy lawyer could push this too attempted murder since she was stabbing at your neck and throat.


Just sayin.........

Hammock Parties 05-26-2008 09:30 PM

If she's convicted of attempted murder I wonder if you could just get her to **** you to drop the charges.

CHENZ A! 05-26-2008 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by banyon (Post 4768882)
That's not good. You need some strangers on your side. People who weren't the drunk's friends and aren't regulars or coworkers.

Well shit I mean there were like 80 people there that saw it, shouldn't the police have asked any of them what happened? I've never had to go around gathering witnesses for anything before.

Mr. Flopnuts 05-26-2008 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GOATSE (Post 4768894)
It must be my incredible upper-body strength. Most things tend to break easily under my assault. I walked into a door today and took it right off the hinge.

LMAO

Hammock Parties 05-26-2008 09:32 PM

1 Attachment(s)
MAN OF STEEL

Florida_Bronco 05-26-2008 09:32 PM

You have a right to self defense, and the law doesn't distinguish between a man and a woman.

My opinion on the matter is that if a woman tries to fight you like a man, she should be dealt with like a man. Far too many girls feel they can get in a guy's face and push him around because of this unspoken rule that you don't hit women. The first time some guy cracks em' upside the head, that shit will stop.

banyon 05-26-2008 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GOATSE (Post 4768887)
WHAM!

I bet female bones break real easily.

Women make more efficient assassins.

Make sure you don't pick on one of those.

CHENZ A! 05-26-2008 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GOATSE (Post 4768899)
If she's convicted of attempted murder I wonder if you could just get her to **** you to drop the charges.

I'm not that hard up man. she was not even remotely attractive, she looked strung out. I like fit and healthy women.

banyon 05-26-2008 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by petegz28 (Post 4768896)
I think a good and greedy lawyer could push this too attempted murder since she was stabbing at your neck and throat.


Just sayin.........

Private attorneys don't get to decie what criminal charges are filed. And prosecutors don't get paid by the level of felony they charge.

stlchiefs 05-26-2008 09:35 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by GOATSE (Post 4768894)
It must be my incredible upper-body strength. Most things tend to break easily under my assault. I walked into a door today and took it right off the hinge.

:)

Hammock Parties 05-26-2008 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHENZ A! (Post 4768910)
I'm not that hard up man. she was not even remotely attractive, she looked strung out. I like fit and healthy women.

Blowjob.

banyon 05-26-2008 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHENZ A! (Post 4768900)
Well shit I mean there were like 80 people there that saw it, shouldn't the police have asked any of them what happened? I've never had to go around gathering witnesses for anything before.

Those are exactly the people you need. People that have no connection to you or them, thus no reason to lie about it.

They are probably friends of a friend of a friend. Ask the other bouncers to help you figure out who was there that fits that bill maybe, or seeif you can identify them the next club night or friday.

banyon 05-26-2008 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHENZ A! (Post 4768910)
I'm not that hard up man. she was not even remotely attractive, she looked strung out. I like fit and healthy women.

Sounds like meth to me.

FAX 05-26-2008 09:40 PM

Dang, Mr. CHENZ A!. My advice to you is to find a new job. No amount of money is worth that kind of abuse and mental anguish.

The problem is that, even if a woman stabs you with keys, a judge will probably have your tail for hitting a woman. It's just the way it is.

FAX

CHENZ A! 05-26-2008 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by banyon (Post 4768917)
Sounds like meth to me.

bitch looked like fiona apple, and the dude had a pony tail. :shake:

stlchiefs 05-26-2008 09:43 PM

Those are some brutal key wounds. As banyon stated you need to get some unbiased statements from witnesses. Hopefully the video system filmed something positive for your side as well. What bar do you bounce at?

CHENZ A! 05-26-2008 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAX (Post 4768920)
Dang, Mr. CHENZ A!. My advice to you is to find a new job. No amount of money is worth that kind of abuse and mental anguish.

The problem is that, even if a woman stabs you with keys, a judge will probably have your tail for hitting a woman. It's just the way it is.

FAX

Only do it for supplemental income. If I could find a better 1 or 2 nt a week job that lets me come in at 8PM I'd definetely do it. this is the first time I've had any problems here though.

Bugeater 05-26-2008 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHENZ A! (Post 4768874)
the police said that since there were witnesses(the two drunks friends) who told a different story of how it went down, that if they arrested them then they'd have to arrest me too because it is a he said/She said situation.

WTF? If a dude put marks like that on a woman his ass would've gone straight to jail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Florida_Bronco (Post 4768903)
You have a right to self defense, and the law doesn't distinguish between a man and a woman.

LMAO Yeah right, I think this deal right here proves that it does.

kcxiv 05-26-2008 09:46 PM

If someone is coming at me with a knife or trying to seriously injure me. i dont care who it is, they are going to get one across the cheek. My friend once told me women want equal rights. so if a bitch is going to come at me like a man, i am going to hit her like one. haha

UteChief 05-26-2008 09:46 PM

I'll do what I need to to protect my self and my family. In that case they are fair game.

Hammock Parties 05-26-2008 09:47 PM

I guess this is one of the advantages of being a transvestite.

banyon 05-26-2008 09:48 PM

"Claythan" LMAO. Nice work, MODS.

Florida_Bronco 05-26-2008 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoBo (Post 4768929)
LMAO Yeah right, I think this deal right here proves that it does.

True. I guess I should say that "isn't supposed to" differntiate between man and woman.

stumppy 05-26-2008 09:55 PM

It's too easy to put a woman down without having to punch them or cause any real physical harm. Although, if it were a life and death situation, like the bitch was swinging a knife, it would be lights out for her.
I do have to say you showed a considerable amount of restraint for someone getting keys jabbed in their neck.

stumppy 05-26-2008 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by banyon (Post 4768939)
"Claythan" LMAO. Nice work, MODS.


LMAO

EXCELLENT

Hammock Parties 05-26-2008 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stumppy (Post 4768954)
It's too easy to put a woman down without having to punch them or cause any real physical harm.

Yes, women are weak lilies.

FAX 05-26-2008 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHENZ A! (Post 4768928)
Only do it for supplemental income. If I could find a better 1 or 2 nt a week job that lets me come in at 8PM I'd definetely do it. this is the first time I've had any problems here though.

I can certainly understand that, Mr. CHENZ A!. I hate to see you working in an "at risk" environment, though. Here's to hoping this episode will ultimately resolve itself in your favor. Based on your post, it's within the realm of possibility that the crazy bitch and her boyfriend off each other before it goes to court.

FAX

Skip Towne 05-26-2008 10:01 PM

Just out of curiosity, how big are you?

ChiefaRoo 05-26-2008 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skip Towne (Post 4768967)
Just out of curiosity, how big are you?

skip is scared

Friendo 05-26-2008 10:03 PM

in all seriousness, William makes a very valid point-keys to the carotid raises the ante...anyhoo-good luck, and I'm with Mr FAX on the new line of work thingy.

Brock 05-26-2008 10:10 PM

Dealing with drunks is fun.

QuikSsurfer 05-26-2008 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claythan (Post 4768902)
MAN OF STEEL

Chuck Norris
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f8...42_chuck-1.gif

FAX 05-26-2008 10:18 PM

As for the actual question, I'm not sure that punching females is at all acceptable behavior. Far better, I think, to grab them by the hair and repeatedly slam their head into the bar. That technique is certain to straighten a girl out by the second or third slam.

FAX

Skip Towne 05-26-2008 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claythan (Post 4768957)
Yes, women are weak lilies.

Says Humpty Dumpty

Chiefs Pantalones 05-26-2008 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAX (Post 4768998)
As for the actual question, I'm not sure that punching females is at all acceptable behavior. Far better, I think, to grab them by the hair and repeatedly slam their head into the bar. That technique is certain to straighten a girl out by the second or third slam.

FAX

Before you hit them, grab their boobs. It's only fair. They have touched you in a non-appropriate way, it's only fair that before you Steven Segal their asses you violate them that way.

Bugeater 05-26-2008 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skip Towne (Post 4768967)
Just out of curiosity, how big are you?

He's bigger than JoeSomebody:

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/pictu...3&pictureid=83


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