Ethics and Honor - A Rain Man Rant

**Rain Man** · 05-02-2005, 08:49 PM

Gol'dang it, I'm ticked off.

We've implemented a very challenging and time consuming process to hire people in my firm, in an effort to get the people who are most likely to be successful. We implemented it last year, and it took us three months to find a strong candidate for a relatively quantitative position. It was a college student who was supposed to graduate in May, and we made her the offer in January, with the agreement that she would start part time in January and then go full time in May.

Well, she's been working for us part time for four months, and was supposed to start full time two weeks from today. So what does she do today? She turns in her two-week notice. Her two-week notice!

Now, if the job wasn't a fit, that's fine. But it was. She was doing good work for us, we all liked her, and she seemed to be genuinely interested in the work. She had a great future here. But get this: It turns out that she continued interviewing for jobs after she accepted our job offer, and she actually accepted a second job offer AFTER SHE WAS WORKING AT MY COMPANY. She then strung my firm along for who knows how long, letting us think that she was keeping her commitment to start full time after graduation, while knowing full well that she was going to screw us over on short notice. Now we're having a busy month, and the person that I've been working my schedule around to accommodate a part-time schedule is freaking quitting, RIGHT WHEN SHE HAD COMMITTED TO STEP UP.

It ticks me off for about a thousand reasons. Dang it. What is wrong with people today? If someone treats you well, don't slam their fingers in the car door.

Stupid people. I hate people. From here on out, I'm just hiring cats.

Hammock Parties · 05-02-2005, 08:50 PM

She probably didn't like the way you kept staring at her ass.

**Rain Man** · 05-02-2005, 08:51 PM

Tomorrow I'm going to hit her.

**Skip Towne** · 05-02-2005, 08:57 PM

Yeah, hiring cats sounds like a plan. They have much better 40 times too.

FallingAlice · 05-02-2005, 09:15 PM

Have you talked to her about it? Either casually or in the context of a formal "exit interview?" Not to say that she'll be honest with you. She probably won't. But it's worth a try.

From your perspective it was a great fit and she was doing well. But it's rare for someone (especially a bright woman in math and science) to do what she's done without some reason. Most of us don't leave employment that we really like.

Maybe from her perspective she didn't feel as though she fit in. Maybe there were things in the organizational culture that she found distasteful. Or maybe she felt that she was low-balled during salary negotiations and pulled a T.O. in order to get a whole lot more money elsewhere.

I don't what your company does. I don't mean to be sexist and I'm trying not to jump to conclusions but is your firm very male dominated? I've had friends and have myself worked in intensely male-dominated environments that we all found personally repellant. In these cases, most women pretend to get along, bite their tongues and find a way to leave as soon as possible. I'm not talking here about an environment of harrassment and overt discrimination, but one of not-so-subtle hostility and/or indifference. This is particularly true in science and engineering fields.

If she has a particularly savvy coping style then she could well leave you with the impression that she was comfortable with your company all the while hating it.

Of course, it may not be a gender thing. It may be how interesting the work is ... what she began to perceive her career trajectory might be ... her opinion of her supervisor... lifestyle and general corporate culture issues ... or ... again ... money. Regardless, I would look at this as a labor market issue (not so much an ethical issue) and I would try to find out why she bolted so fast.

In the end, the important question for you is employee recruitment and retention. In the long run, the answer to that question is what's valuable to your company.

**Rain Man** · 05-02-2005, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FallingAlice

Have you talked to her about it? Either casually or in the context of a formal "exit interview?" Not to say that she'll be honest with you. She probably won't. But it's worth a try.

From your perspective it was a great fit and she was doing well. But it's rare for someone (especially a bright woman in math and science) to do what she's done without some reason. Most of us don't leave employment that we really like.

Maybe from her perspective she didn't feel as though she fit in. Maybe there were things in the organizational culture that she found distasteful. Or maybe she felt that she was low-balled during salary negotiations and pulled a T.O. in order to get a whole lot more money elsewhere.

I don't what your company does. I don't mean to be sexist and I'm trying not to jump to conclusions but is your firm very male dominated? I've had friends and have myself worked in intensely male-dominated environments that we all found personally repellant. In these cases, most women pretend to get along, bite their tongues and find a way to leave as soon as possible. I'm not talking here about an environment of harrassment and overt discrimination, but one of not-so-subtle hostility and/or indifference. This is particularly true in science and engineering fields.

If she has a particularly savvy coping style then she could well leave you with the impression that she was comfortable with your company all the while hating it.

Of course, it may not be a gender thing. It may be how interesting the work is ... what she began to perceive her career trajectory might be ... her opinion of her supervisor... lifestyle and general corporate culture issues ... or ... again ... money. Regardless, I would look at this as a labor market issue (not so much an ethical issue) and I would try to find out why she bolted so fast.

In the end, the important question for you is employee recruitment and retention. In the long run, the answer to that question is what's valuable to your company.

Actually, our company is 70 percent female and all employees of both sexes are analyst-level, so I don't think that was an issue. And I know that she was interested in the work, because she was quite engaged and had told me in the past couple of months that she was quite interested in the work.

To be honest, I'll bet anything that this is just an immature college student decision where she wanted to get the highest starting salary that she could. The other job is a boring-sounding reliability engineer job, but I'm sure as an engineering job that it pays more. I was an undergrad once, and I know that starting salary is a scorecard for people at that stage of life.

The part that ticks me off is that she shouldn't have even been interviewing. She had already accepted a job and had even started work. I remember when I was in undergrad that the career office wouldn't allow you to interview if you had already accepted a job.

Valiant · 05-02-2005, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain Man

Actually, our company is 70 percent female and all employees of both sexes are analyst-level, so I don't think that was an issue. And I know that she was interested in the work, because she was quite engaged and had told me in the past couple of months that she was quite interested in the work.

To be honest, I'll bet anything that this is just an immature college student decision where she wanted to get the highest starting salary that she could. The other job is a boring-sounding reliability engineer job, but I'm sure as an engineering job that it pays more. I was an undergrad once, and I know that starting salary is a scorecard for people at that stage of life.

The part that ticks me off is that she shouldn't have even been interviewing. She had already accepted a job and had even started work. I remember when I was in undergrad that the career office wouldn't allow you to interview if you had already accepted a job.

From her point of view...

I interview for jobs

Job A(you) hires me...

I got a job that is part-time and promises me full-time once i complete college, other interview comes in will double my salary and start me off full-time with benefits... Will put in my two weeks, and get new job...

or

She decided she really doesnt like doing what she is doing... Just because someone works hard and diligent does not mean they like it... Hell i work my ass off and i only make 25k a year... I hate my job... But it pays the bills and I hate looking for jobs... Been there six years now... Man i need to finish school...

Inspector · 05-02-2005, 08:57 PM

Maybe she got a better deal ($) from the other guys.

Heck, just outbid them.

Pay her 1 million dollars a year.......to start. She'll stay with you for sure.

In fact, I might be interested in that 1 million dollar a year job.....

Hammock Parties · 05-02-2005, 08:59 PM

What does your firm do, BTW?

**Rain Man** · 05-02-2005, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gochiefs

What does your firm do, BTW?

We make polls. (Does this surprise you?)

We do more than that. We do market research, demographics, impact studies, feasibility studies, strategic plans, etc. Bottom line: we provide information to leaders and managers.

stevieray · 05-02-2005, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain Man

We make polls. (Does this surprise you?)

We do more than that. We do market research, demographics, impact studies, feasibility studies, strategic plans, etc. Bottom line: we provide information to leaders and managers.

sells our infromation to the debil.

**Rain Man** · 05-02-2005, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevieray

sells our infromation to the debil.

Only if the debil pays me. I'm very strict about that.

**Nzoner** · 05-02-2005, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevieray

sells our infromation to the debil.

Speaking of treating people well,I don't remember you guys leaving the other night,so see ya later and thanks for coming.

Boozer · 05-02-2005, 09:09 PM

Shoulda made an employment contract for a term. 'Course, I bet you like to retain the right to terminate employment at will. Can't have it both ways.

View Poll Results: In which situations is either party being unethical or dishonorable?
A. Employer makes job offer to college student, student starts work, employer fires student within 90 days for poor job performance.	0	0%
B. Employer makes job offer to college student, student starts work, student quits within 90 days after finding 'better' job.	0	0%
C. Employer makes job offer to college student, student starts work, employer lays off student within 90 days due to slow business.	3	21.43%
D. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, employer rescinds offer before start date because a stronger candidate came available by pure happenstance	9	64.29%
E. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, employer continues to interview candidates for that position, employer rescinds offer before start date because a stronger candidate was located.	11	78.57%
F. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, employer rescinds offer before start date due to slow business.	4	28.57%
G. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, student reneges on offer before start date because another 'better' job offer arrived by pure happenstance.	3	21.43%
H. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, student continues to actively interview for other jobs, student reneges on offer before start date because another 'better' job offer was received.	9	64.29%
I. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, student reneges on offer after beginning pre-job paid training program because another 'better' job offer arrived by pure happenstance.	7	50.00%
J. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, student continues to actively interview for other jobs, student reneges on offer after beginning pre-job paid training program because another 'better' job offer was received.	11	78.57%
None of these represent unethical or dishonorable behavior.	1	7.14%
It depends on which one is me.	1	7.14%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 14. You may not vote on this poll

05-02-2005, 08:49 PM	Topic Starter
Rain Man NFL's #1 Ermines Fan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: My house Casino cash: $2768491 VARSITY	Ethics and Honor - A Rain Man Rant Gol'dang it, I'm ticked off. We've implemented a very challenging and time consuming process to hire people in my firm, in an effort to get the people who are most likely to be successful. We implemented it last year, and it took us three months to find a strong candidate for a relatively quantitative position. It was a college student who was supposed to graduate in May, and we made her the offer in January, with the agreement that she would start part time in January and then go full time in May. Well, she's been working for us part time for four months, and was supposed to start full time two weeks from today. So what does she do today? She turns in her two-week notice. Her two-week notice! Now, if the job wasn't a fit, that's fine. But it was. She was doing good work for us, we all liked her, and she seemed to be genuinely interested in the work. She had a great future here. But get this: It turns out that she continued interviewing for jobs after she accepted our job offer, and she actually accepted a second job offer AFTER SHE WAS WORKING AT MY COMPANY. She then strung my firm along for who knows how long, letting us think that she was keeping her commitment to start full time after graduation, while knowing full well that she was going to screw us over on short notice. Now we're having a busy month, and the person that I've been working my schedule around to accommodate a part-time schedule is freaking quitting, RIGHT WHEN SHE HAD COMMITTED TO STEP UP. It ticks me off for about a thousand reasons. Dang it. What is wrong with people today? If someone treats you well, don't slam their fingers in the car door. Stupid people. I hate people. From here on out, I'm just hiring cats.
Posts: 141,870

05-02-2005, 08:50 PM	#2
Hammock Parties I'll be back. Join Date: Nov 2002 Casino cash: $4160478	She probably didn't like the way you kept staring at her ass. __________________ Chiefs game films
Posts: 279,742

05-02-2005, 08:51 PM	#3
Rain Man NFL's #1 Ermines Fan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: My house Casino cash: $2768491 VARSITY	Tomorrow I'm going to hit her. __________________ I'm putting random letters here as a celebration of free speech: xigrakgrah misorojeq rkemeseit.
Posts: 141,870

05-02-2005, 08:57 PM	#4
Skip Towne Supporter Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: T-Town Casino cash: $10004900	Yeah, hiring cats sounds like a plan. They have much better 40 times too.
Posts: 69,689

05-02-2005, 09:15 PM	#5
FallingAlice Starter Join Date: Sep 2002 Casino cash: $10004900	Have you talked to her about it? Either casually or in the context of a formal "exit interview?" Not to say that she'll be honest with you. She probably won't. But it's worth a try. From your perspective it was a great fit and she was doing well. But it's rare for someone (especially a bright woman in math and science) to do what she's done without some reason. Most of us don't leave employment that we really like. Maybe from her perspective she didn't feel as though she fit in. Maybe there were things in the organizational culture that she found distasteful. Or maybe she felt that she was low-balled during salary negotiations and pulled a T.O. in order to get a whole lot more money elsewhere. I don't what your company does. I don't mean to be sexist and I'm trying not to jump to conclusions but is your firm very male dominated? I've had friends and have myself worked in intensely male-dominated environments that we all found personally repellant. In these cases, most women pretend to get along, bite their tongues and find a way to leave as soon as possible. I'm not talking here about an environment of harrassment and overt discrimination, but one of not-so-subtle hostility and/or indifference. This is particularly true in science and engineering fields. If she has a particularly savvy coping style then she could well leave you with the impression that she was comfortable with your company all the while hating it. Of course, it may not be a gender thing. It may be how interesting the work is ... what she began to perceive her career trajectory might be ... her opinion of her supervisor... lifestyle and general corporate culture issues ... or ... again ... money. Regardless, I would look at this as a labor market issue (not so much an ethical issue) and I would try to find out why she bolted so fast. In the end, the important question for you is employee recruitment and retention. In the long run, the answer to that question is what's valuable to your company. __________________ What would Brian Boitano do?
Posts: 254

05-02-2005, 08:57 PM	#9
Inspector MVP Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: K.C. Casino cash: $9924975	Maybe she got a better deal ($) from the other guys. Heck, just outbid them. Pay her 1 million dollars a year.......to start. She'll stay with you for sure. In fact, I might be interested in that 1 million dollar a year job.....
Posts: 7,907

05-02-2005, 08:59 PM	#10
Hammock Parties I'll be back. Join Date: Nov 2002 Casino cash: $4160478	What does your firm do, BTW? __________________ Chiefs game films
Posts: 279,742

05-02-2005, 09:09 PM	#15
Boozer Pain Cake Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Lawrence, KS Casino cash: $10004900	Shoulda made an employment contract for a term. 'Course, I bet you like to retain the right to terminate employment at will. Can't have it both ways. __________________
Posts: 10,170