CP Cultural Hour: Shakespeare, Bach, Plato, Emerson, What's on your mind

[FAX]

Just brewed a cup of Earl Grey tea and added some lemon and honey so if anyone would like to discuss philosophy, poetry, classical music, cultural anthropology, or anything along those lines, please advise. Also typing pretty fast because the tea is strong.

FAX

Disclaimers: Sorry if repost.

[Reaper16]

I've always found it curious that while Nietzsche read a lot of Emerson and was greatly influenced by him, their approaches to individuality were so divergent. Nietzsche, of course, is all about separating one's self from "the herd." But while Emerson prized individuality (read "Self-Reliance"), individuality for him was ultimately important so that one can better access the universal, or the Over-Soul. Emerson was much more democratic in his thought on individuality, something that Nietzsche left behind.

[FAX]

Originally Posted by Reaper16

I've always found it curious that while Nietzsche read a lot of Emerson and was greatly influenced by him, their approaches to individuality were so divergent. Nietzsche, of course, is all about separating one's self from "the herd." But while Emerson prized individuality (read "Self-Reliance"), individuality for him was ultimately important so that one can better access the universal, or the Over-Soul. Emerson was much more democratic in his thought on individuality, something that Nietzsche left behind.

That is interesting, Mr. Reaper16. It's fair to say that each of those men ultimately approached existentialism as vastly different concepts in terms of practicalism. Nietzsche's separation of man from a conceptual God certainly implies, if not outright declares, individualism whereas Emerson, as you say, preferred to think of man as uniquely separate, yet connected to God via ethereal means in a world where man exists to find and explore God whereas Nietzsche's purposes for man were self-exploratory.

FAX

[keg in kc]

Originally Posted by FAX

Nietzsche's purposes for man were self-exploratory.

FAX

How ironic, I just finished exploring myself not 15 seconds ago.

[Reaper16]

Originally Posted by keg in kc

How ironic, I just finished exploring myself not 15 seconds ago.

You're such an ubermensch.

[keg in kc]

Originally Posted by Reaper16

You're such an ubermensch.

You have no idea.

I did it while whistling Wagner.

[Reaper16]

Originally Posted by FAX

That is interesting, Mr. Reaper16. It's fair to say that each of those men ultimately approached existentialism as vastly different concepts in terms of practicalism. Nietzsche's separation of man from a conceptual God certainly implies, if not outright declares, individualism whereas Emerson, as you say, preferred to think of man as uniquely separate, yet connected to God via ethereal means in a world where man exists to find and explore God whereas Nietzsche's purposes for man were self-exploratory.

FAX

Its a fascinating distinction between the two, given the similarity on-the-face of it. Yeah, I wrote a 20 page paper about it.

[Ultra Peanut]

... I was just thinking about La Parka. Sorry.

[Bugeater]

I love me some Beethoven.

[FAX]

Originally Posted by Bugeater

I love me some Beethoven.

Beethoven was a true genius, Mr. Bugeater, but ultimately a traditionalist, don't you think? Not, perhaps, as courageous as others of his contemporaries such as Mozart or even Haydn who, although also considered formal in their approach, explored highly non-contemporary compositional expression.

FAX

[cdcox]

Originally Posted by FAX

Beethoven was a true genius, Mr. Bugeater, but ultimately a traditionalist, don't you think? Not, perhaps, as courageous as others of his contemporaries such as Mozart or even Haydn who, although also considered formal in their approach, explored highly non-contemporary compositional expression.

FAX

Cutting the legs off your your piano had to be pretty non-contemporary in Beetoven's day, wouldn't you think?

[FAX]

Originally Posted by cdcox

Cutting the legs off your your piano had to be pretty non-contemporary in Beetoven's day, wouldn't you think?

I suppose one could make that argument, Mr. cdcox. However, compositions for prepared piano were not uncommon in Beethoven's time which implies that significant modifications to musical instruments were acceptable and considered by many to be, if not tralatitious, certainly somewhat conventional.

FAX

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by FAX

I suppose one could make that argument, Mr. cdcox. However, compositions for prepared piano were not uncommon in Beethoven's time which implies that significant modifications to musical instruments were acceptable and considered by many to be, if not tralatitious, certainly somewhat conventional.

FAX

You gotta do what you gotta do when it comes to creating music.

Eddie Van Halen not only created the first Strat with a humbucker, he cut the lower horn off of an SG before cutting the slide guitar track on Fair Warning's "Dirty Movies" so he could access notes over the neck humbucker.

Andy Johns accidentally created the flanging effect during a Led Zeppelin session by simply setting his vodka drink on the tape machine's flange.

I could go on and on and on but musical history is filled with such "blunders and compromises".

[cdcox]

Originally Posted by FAX

I suppose one could make that argument, Mr. cdcox. However, compositions for prepared piano were not uncommon in Beethoven's time which implies that significant modifications to musical instruments were acceptable and considered by many to be, if not tralatitious, certainly somewhat conventional.

FAX

Surely you are not overlooking Beethoven as the archetype of the mutilation school, adapted much later by Hendix and Townshend?

[RealSNR]

Originally Posted by FAX

Beethoven was a true genius, Mr. Bugeater, but ultimately a traditionalist, don't you think? Not, perhaps, as courageous as others of his contemporaries such as Mozart or even Haydn who, although also considered formal in their approach, explored highly non-contemporary compositional expression.

FAX

Our dear late (but never forgotten) friend Mr. Glenn Gould would argue differently



Cases can be made for all three (Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven) advancing compositional expression. Particularly with Haydn, since both Mozart AND Beethoven were pupils of his. What they did, however, was moreso advance the Italian school of Baroque expression established by characters such as Monteverdi in the 16th century and inject it into the large symphonic forms. Additionally, both figures played a large part in cementing those as the firm forms. Sonata-allegro 1st movements, if not previously firmly established, were certainly done with Haydn (104 symphonies will tend to influence music that way). Also, Haydn is considered by most musicologists to be the father of the string quartet in the way they were composed. Mozart and Beethoven had to be deeply inspired in their quartet compositions, especially Beethoven, who took Haydn's work and added one more step.

However, it's what Gould talks about in that video that seperates Beethoven from the lot. As he lost his hearing, he appears to also have lost his patience for established sonata-allegro forms. Beginning with middle piano sonatas in 1810, he worked in the 2-movement form, and as this Op. 109 shows (from his last 5 piano sonatas) he was nearly CONSTRICTED by what was expected from good music those days. Because he was the first composer to really be a private journeyman, and not compose under the patronage system, he was allowed to create these incredibly complex works after he had established himself in Vienna, the music capital of the world. And he appears to have done marvelously for himself.

Here are the first two movements of the Op. 109 sonata Glenn Gould discusses. You'll see it's very unconventional. Serkin's a master at his age, at any rate.