Chiefs The myth of Pioli - Page 6

B_Ambuehl · 12-07-2009, 01:12 PM

LOL I wonder if he's sharing that loaded contract he got from Clark with Bellichik.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/c...148&position=0

This time it’s personnel
Building to collapse
By Ron Borges
Monday, December 7, 2009 - Updated 4m ago
+ Recent Articles

MIAMI - Slowly but inexorably they are dissolving in front of our eyes. It is a process that didn’t begin this year for the New England Patriots [team stats] but way back in 2004, when nobody was paying attention to much else but the lifting of another Super Bowl banner.

That season they won their third Super Bowl in four seasons but also began a widely ignored decline that manifested itself emphatically the past month and came to a sad head yesterday at Land Shark Stadium when they lost for the third time in four weeks, blowing a 14-0 lead to be beaten at the buzzer by the Miami Dolphins [team stats], 22-21.

Five years ago, the Patriots draft garnered two starters, both on the first round. Not another player drafted in April of 2004 is still in uniform. That fallowness continued in 2005 when they again picked only two current starters. In 2006, they got only one, running back Laurence Maroney [stats], plus kicker Stephen Gostkowski. Then came the disaster of 2007, when only first-round pick Brandon Meriweather was good enough to still be in pro
football.

It is a bit early to know about 2008 but other than linebacker Jerod Mayo it again appears to be a sad lot. Second- and third-round picks Terrence Wheatley and Shawn Crable seldom see the field (Crable never has) and it is becoming increasingly more disastrous that cornerback Jonathan Wilhite sees so much of it. In those five years, the Patriots drafted 41 players and got eight starters, six on the first round. Otherwise they got what Bill Belichick kept saying was “value.” Yesterday, it didn’t look that way.

Free agency has produced similarly skimpy results. Early hits were made on Rodney Harrison [stats] and Mike Vrabel, but after that the cupboard has been bare. They paid $30 million to Adalius Thomas and promised he could cover Ocho Cinco and sack Peyton Manning. He’s done neither. Shawn Springs signed a three-year, $10.5 million deal last spring and hasn’t played a snap in a month, while poor Wilhite struggles out of position because he’s a nickel back asked to play corner and rookie Darius Butler goes out and proves that while he has potential he never saw receivers at UConn like the ones catching balls behind and in front of him now, as Greg Camarillo did on fourth-and-6 on the game’s most critical play yesterday.

While there were fruitful trades for Randy Moss and Wes Welker, they have netted big numbers but no championships, which is the same amount Moss’ teams have won since he first came into the NFL.

These facts led New Orleans Saints coach Sean Payton to tell his team before last Monday night’s game to be stout hearted and unafraid because “this isn’t the team that accomplished all that stuff.” Although his language was more colorful, his point was clear. These Patriots aren’t those Patriots.

“It’s not for lack of effort,” center Dan Koppen said not long after Dolphins kicker Dan Carpenter nailed a 41-yard field goal and Tom Brady [stats] responded by throwing his second interception of the day with :35 to play as Cameron Wake hammered him.

Koppen is right. The Patriots’ problems are not from lack of effort or lack of planning. They are from lack of talent. Not so lacking that they aren’t competitive, but lacking enough that most every game is a struggle now.

Today everyone will say, “They need a better pass rush.” From whom?

They will say, “They need better pass coverage.” From whom?

Some will say they need to run the ball more to take pressure off Brady and his ailing ring finger, sore shoulder and aching ribs. By whom?

Years ago, Chuck Fairbanks said it best. “It’s not about X’s and O’s. It’s about Jimmys and Joes.” For half a decade with the Pats people believed otherwise. In Bill We Trust became the motto, but does anyone honestly believe Bill Belichick forgot how to coach? A guy who has been watching game film since he was 6 now can’t break down film and discover a team’s weaknesses?

That’s not the problem. The problem is he can’t ask people to do what they are not capable of doing. Or, worse, he does and you end up with Sam Aiken, a guy brought here to replace Larry Izzo [stats] on special teams, as your third receiver making one great catch for a touchdown and dropping two key ones. Did he have a great game or a disastrous one? Probably both, which is A) not his fault because he’s playing a role he was never supposed to, and B) not something Belichick can change.

“We’ve got to find a way to play better football for 60 minutes in all phases,” Brady said. “Everyone has to focus on what they need to do better. I think that’s the most important thing. And be mentally tough to overcome adversity and if things don’t go your way, you’ve got to fight back. That’s a challenge for all of us. At times I think we do, and other times, I don’t think we fight very hard.”

The latter is a damning statement, but it’s also part of what separates the 2001 Pats from today’s. Remaining undaunted is a skill too and not everyone has it.

“We have leads in the second half, and leads in the fourth quarter,” Brady continued. “We’re just not closing the game out when we have the opportunity to. We’re searching for the answers, too.

“Coach always says, ‘You get what you deserve.’ In too many ways, you don’t deserve to win when you make as many mistakes as we do.”

That’s true whether you make them on the field or in the front office.

beach tribe · 12-07-2009, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Let's look at the moves that he's made while he's actually been the one in charge:

The hire of Todd Haley: Not damnable, but not inspiring of confidence either

The trade for Cassel: Looks god awful, and not because of his lack of fantasy stats. He doesn't appear to have the native ability to succeed in his position.

The contract to Cassel: We already owned his rights for 2 years, and were massively under the cap. This to, me, is the most damning move he's yet made.

The hire of Clancy Pendergast: ****ing awful. Arizona has the same talent in place as last year and is demonstrably better. Meanwhile, the Chiefs added their first three draft picks to the D and it's arguably just as bad (if not worse) than last year's D. At least we had ****ing injuries last year.

The trade of Gonzalez: His best move. It was a forward looking move that brings us quick help for a player at the end of his career.

The signing of Zach Thomas: FAIL
Bobby Engram: FAIL
Bobby Wade: FAIL
Amani Toomer: FAIL
Monty Beisel: FAIL
Mike Brown: FAIL

Cutting Pollard: FAIL

Trading a draft pick for Alleman and Eat Dookie: FAIL

Addressing the OL through draft and FA: FAIL. It wasn't an OL-empty draft, either, nor was Ryan O'Callaghan the only RT available after September cuts.

Bringing in Vrabel along w/ Cassel to establish veteran leadership: Nothing shows leadership like a 34 year old player flipping off the opposing sideline because he's experiencing multiple blowout losses for the first time in his career.

Drafting a 5 Technique at 3 overall b/c you've painted yourself into a corner: FAIL

Sean Ryan: FAIL

Thigpen trade: Great move.

Signing of Chris Chambers: Great move.

I should be optimistic, huh?

Now break down all the Awesome moves that BB made this past off-season.
And don't give me Richard Seymore. That's Raiders hilarity, not BB genius.
Guess what. The Patriots are falling fast.

quote
Bobby Engram: FAIL
"Bobby Wade: FAIL
Amani Toomer: FAIL
Monty Beisel: FAIL
Mike Brown: FAIL" [Hamas]

We turned over a third of the roster, and you're gonna point at a bunch of league minimum guys we brought in, and say fail because they didn't work out?

I'm with ya man. I think a team should be able to bring in 23 players, and have everyone of them start, and contribute at a high level. **snicker**

**DeezNutz** · 12-07-2009, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAX

The Truth Monkey just let out a big one over this post.

It's as though people don't realize just how bad we were/are. When Pioli took over, the sign over the stadium read; "Arrowhead, Home Of The Laughing Stocks." He's supposed to turn that culture around in 12 months? That's crazy talk.

Besides, as mentioned, he has a lot more on his plate than just personnel issues. The Chiefs were a broken organization from top to bottom. Give the poor guy a little time to sort things out, I say.

FAX

This question has been asked countless times, but who was asking for that to happen?

Tangent: "changing a culture" is an empty rhetorical phrase and is usually cited by those failing at their jobs. It's the line of choice, for example, for university presidents facing a vote of no confidence from the faculty.

beach tribe · 12-07-2009, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoChiefs

Don't forget Succop!

I haven't.

Dude is going to kick for us for the next decade. Not bad for the last pick in the draft.

Dude has a ****in donkey leg.

keg in kc · 12-07-2009, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoChiefs

BULLSHIT!!!!

If the Chiefs had added the right players in four or five key positions they'd be a much better team right now.

We could have gone after Brian Dawkins...instead we got Mike Brown.

We could have found a guard or tackle in an OL-deep draft...instead we ****ed around with Goff and Newdookie.

Sure, if all you care about is how the team looks right now, if the (false) perception that they're "getting better" in 2009 matters all that much to you. If winning a few more games during a losing season is a big deal to you, if going 8-8 so you don't have to suffer through any down times is more important that working towards a long-term turnaround. If you're a big fan of the way Carl Peterson did business. Which I am not.

As for me, well, in my view, the team would not be better in any meaningful way if they exchanged some of the scrubs that are starting now for different scrubs. YOU might feel better, if they'd won 4 or 5 games now instead of 3 (and there's no guarantee that anything would be any different with different names on the jerseys), but at the end of the day it would end exactly the same way: looking for replacements in 2010 and beyond to build the team that they want.

This year was not the time for bold free agent moves, in my opinion. I think they have to build the core of their team first, through the drafts, and then fill in the holes that way. All of the guys you're bitching about are placeholders for guys who'll be drafted later on. Which is I think the right approach.

Can they do it? I don't know. I do know it's not something that can be done in one offseason. Or two. And I'm not supporting Pioli or anybody else when I say that. What I am saying is that I can't judge the quality or lack thereof of their philosophy or approach at this point.

Because it's too soon.

Which I'm sure I've said before.

But by all means don't let me interrupt your hilarious overreaction and bi-polar weekly behavior.

Hammock Parties · 12-07-2009, 02:50 PM

Go and look at the moves the Broncos made on defense.

Why not the Chiefs?

I'll tell you why - the people running things at Arrowhead ****ed it all up this year.

'Hamas' Jenkins · 12-07-2009, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beach tribe

Now break down all the Awesome moves that BB made this past off-season.
And don't give me Richard Seymore. That's Raiders hilarity, not BB genius.
Guess what. The Patriots are falling fast.

quote
Bobby Engram: FAIL
"Bobby Wade: FAIL
Amani Toomer: FAIL
Monty Beisel: FAIL
Mike Brown: FAIL" [Hamas]

We turned over a third of the roster, and you're gonna point at a bunch of league minimum guys we brought in, and say fail because they didn't work out?

I'm with ya man. I think a team should be able to bring in 23 players, and have everyone of them start, and contribute at a high level. **snicker**

I love the fact that the entire rebuttal of all you ballwashers has been to invent a narrative that was not said and then use that as what I, and others, have said instead of what was really said.

But that tends to happen when you and try to pass off boiled water as lobster bisque.

I don't have a rebuttal, so I'll just invent something that I want them to say so I don't sound like a clueless automaton*

*It should be noted that I'm giving you credit for hypothetically using words such as automaton that you probably don't know, since if someone put a bullet through your brain the copper jacket would have been the first original item to pass through in the entirety of your lifespan***

***Providing it wasn't recycled.

FAX · 12-07-2009, 02:51 PM

If, in two years, we're still wallowing in this mire, I'll join you guys in your wacky madness. Heck, I'll even be the guy who marches out front carrying the big baton thing and walking while tilted backwards and wearing a big, giant, fluffy hat. Ef' 'Em will be my watchwords and Destruction my middle name.

Until then, I shall look forward to the ways and means whereby Pioli and company figure out how to fix this damn thing and implement their ideas. Although these arguments are rife with passion, I'm unconvinced that this, particular front office is simply a gang of incompetent stooges with an all-encompassing will to lose. Been there. Done that.

FAX

**dirk digler** · 12-07-2009, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeezNutz

This question has been asked countless times, but who was asking for that to happen?

Tangent: "changing a culture" is an empty rhetorical phrase and is usually cited by those failing at their jobs. It's the line of choice, for example, for university presidents facing a vote of no confidence from the faculty.

That doesn't make sense. They have been using changing the culture since the very first day they started. It is not like they started using it last week.

**HemiEd** · 12-07-2009, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beach tribe

I really can't understand how anyone can see it any other way. It baffles me.

Let me help.

You think Haley is the right guy? After watching his progress with this team?
His play calling? The teams lack of progress? Seriously?

You think Cassel is the guy, after making us all pine for Thigpen or Huard?

Sometimes it is better to just cut bait, once you realize you have a stinkfish on the line.

Cut your losses and move on. I am still holding hope for Pioli, but right now if it were up to me, Cassel and Haley would both be moving on.

Hammock Parties · 12-07-2009, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keg in kc

Sure, if all you care about is how the team looks right now, if the (false) perception that they're "getting better" in 2009 matters all that much to you. If winning a few more games during a losing season is a big deal to you, if going 8-8 so you don't have to suffer through any down times is more important that working towards a long-term turnaround. If you're a big fan of the way Carl Peterson did business. Which I am not.

Huh? I'm not talking about just signing about a few old guys from free agency.

I'm talking about the draft. I'm talking about the RIGHT coaching hires instead of the wrong ones (Nolan v. Pendergast).

Do you really think Pioli and Haley were comfortable ranking in the bottom 5 on offense and defense this year? Do you think they are shrugging their shoulders as you are now?

BULLCRAP.

keg in kc · 12-07-2009, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoChiefs

Go and look at the moves the Broncos made on defense.

Why not the Chiefs?

I'll tell you why - the people running things at Arrowhead ****ed it all up this year.

The Broncos were an 8-8 team competing for the west division crown last year.

The Chiefs won 2 games.

One of those things is not like the other.

Hammock Parties · 12-07-2009, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keg in kc

The Broncos were an 8-8 team competing for the west division crown last year.

The Chiefs won 2 games.

One of those things is not like the other.

The Chiefs and Broncos had comparable defenses, though.

One team did something about it. The other team tried, and failed. Miserably.

Don't stick your head in the sand.

beach tribe · 12-07-2009, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

And through all of that, we were told to STFD and

because we aren't "Pioli".

[/SIZE][/SIZE]

Nobody is saying that.

Simply stating that it's too early to throw in the towel, and declare Pioli, BB's bitch, and an imminent failure. It makes you look slightly like a panicky over-reacting nancy. Just kidding dude.

I think you're smart Hamas. No, I know you're smart. But I also think you make up your mind about people, and it skews you overall outlook. If Pioli doesn't attack this roster with diligence this off-season, then i will be right there with you, but I think with the late hirings, and such, he wanted to see it all himself, and also let his coach find out whether they were really this bad, because, I'm sure they think Herm is a dumbshit.

Rooster · 12-07-2009, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAX

If, in two years, we're still wallowing in this mire, I'll join you guys in your wacky madness. Heck, I'll even be the guy who marches out front carrying the big baton thing and walking while tilted backwards and wearing a big, giant, fluffy hat. Ef' 'Em will be my watchwords and Destruction my middle name.

Until then, I shall look forward to the ways and means whereby Pioli and company figure out how to fix this damn thing and implement their ideas. Although these arguments are rife with passion, I'm unconvinced that this, particular front office is simply a gang of incompetent stooges with an all-encompassing will to lose. Been there. Done that.

FAX

I'm not sure what was expected by some.

keg in kc · 12-07-2009, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoChiefs

Huh? I'm not talking about just signing about a few old guys from free agency.

I'm talking about the draft. I'm talking about the RIGHT coaching hires instead of the wrong ones (Nolan v. Pendergast).

Do you really think Pioli and Haley were comfortable ranking in the bottom 5 on offense and defense this year? Do you think they are shrugging their shoulders as you are now?

BULLCRAP.

I bet they're not a whole lot more surprised than I am. I bet they're not any happier about it than I am either. They probably hate losing even more than I do. And I hate losing in a way I doubt you can possibly even understand.

But, on the other hand, I do have the ability to grasp reality.

Which is a skill that generally comes sometime after you move out of your mom's house.

12-07-2009, 01:12 PM
B_Ambuehl Veteran Join Date: Apr 2005 Casino cash: $9705405	The myth of Pioli LOL I wonder if he's sharing that loaded contract he got from Clark with Bellichik. http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/c...148&position=0 This time it’s personnel Building to collapse By Ron Borges Monday, December 7, 2009 - Updated 4m ago + Recent Articles MIAMI - Slowly but inexorably they are dissolving in front of our eyes. It is a process that didn’t begin this year for the New England Patriots [team stats] but way back in 2004, when nobody was paying attention to much else but the lifting of another Super Bowl banner. That season they won their third Super Bowl in four seasons but also began a widely ignored decline that manifested itself emphatically the past month and came to a sad head yesterday at Land Shark Stadium when they lost for the third time in four weeks, blowing a 14-0 lead to be beaten at the buzzer by the Miami Dolphins [team stats], 22-21. Five years ago, the Patriots draft garnered two starters, both on the first round. Not another player drafted in April of 2004 is still in uniform. That fallowness continued in 2005 when they again picked only two current starters. In 2006, they got only one, running back Laurence Maroney [stats], plus kicker Stephen Gostkowski. Then came the disaster of 2007, when only first-round pick Brandon Meriweather was good enough to still be in pro football. It is a bit early to know about 2008 but other than linebacker Jerod Mayo it again appears to be a sad lot. Second- and third-round picks Terrence Wheatley and Shawn Crable seldom see the field (Crable never has) and it is becoming increasingly more disastrous that cornerback Jonathan Wilhite sees so much of it. In those five years, the Patriots drafted 41 players and got eight starters, six on the first round. Otherwise they got what Bill Belichick kept saying was “value.” Yesterday, it didn’t look that way. Free agency has produced similarly skimpy results. Early hits were made on Rodney Harrison [stats] and Mike Vrabel, but after that the cupboard has been bare. They paid $30 million to Adalius Thomas and promised he could cover Ocho Cinco and sack Peyton Manning. He’s done neither. Shawn Springs signed a three-year, $10.5 million deal last spring and hasn’t played a snap in a month, while poor Wilhite struggles out of position because he’s a nickel back asked to play corner and rookie Darius Butler goes out and proves that while he has potential he never saw receivers at UConn like the ones catching balls behind and in front of him now, as Greg Camarillo did on fourth-and-6 on the game’s most critical play yesterday. While there were fruitful trades for Randy Moss and Wes Welker, they have netted big numbers but no championships, which is the same amount Moss’ teams have won since he first came into the NFL. These facts led New Orleans Saints coach Sean Payton to tell his team before last Monday night’s game to be stout hearted and unafraid because “this isn’t the team that accomplished all that stuff.” Although his language was more colorful, his point was clear. These Patriots aren’t those Patriots. “It’s not for lack of effort,” center Dan Koppen said not long after Dolphins kicker Dan Carpenter nailed a 41-yard field goal and Tom Brady [stats] responded by throwing his second interception of the day with :35 to play as Cameron Wake hammered him. Koppen is right. The Patriots’ problems are not from lack of effort or lack of planning. They are from lack of talent. Not so lacking that they aren’t competitive, but lacking enough that most every game is a struggle now. Today everyone will say, “They need a better pass rush.” From whom? They will say, “They need better pass coverage.” From whom? Some will say they need to run the ball more to take pressure off Brady and his ailing ring finger, sore shoulder and aching ribs. By whom? Years ago, Chuck Fairbanks said it best. “It’s not about X’s and O’s. It’s about Jimmys and Joes.” For half a decade with the Pats people believed otherwise. In Bill We Trust became the motto, but does anyone honestly believe Bill Belichick forgot how to coach? A guy who has been watching game film since he was 6 now can’t break down film and discover a team’s weaknesses? That’s not the problem. The problem is he can’t ask people to do what they are not capable of doing. Or, worse, he does and you end up with Sam Aiken, a guy brought here to replace Larry Izzo [stats] on special teams, as your third receiver making one great catch for a touchdown and dropping two key ones. Did he have a great game or a disastrous one? Probably both, which is A) not his fault because he’s playing a role he was never supposed to, and B) not something Belichick can change. “We’ve got to find a way to play better football for 60 minutes in all phases,” Brady said. “Everyone has to focus on what they need to do better. I think that’s the most important thing. And be mentally tough to overcome adversity and if things don’t go your way, you’ve got to fight back. That’s a challenge for all of us. At times I think we do, and other times, I don’t think we fight very hard.” The latter is a damning statement, but it’s also part of what separates the 2001 Pats from today’s. Remaining undaunted is a skill too and not everyone has it. “We have leads in the second half, and leads in the fourth quarter,” Brady continued. “We’re just not closing the game out when we have the opportunity to. We’re searching for the answers, too. “Coach always says, ‘You get what you deserve.’ In too many ways, you don’t deserve to win when you make as many mistakes as we do.” That’s true whether you make them on the field or in the front office.
Posts: 2,613

12-07-2009, 02:50 PM	#80
Hammock Parties I'll be back. Join Date: Nov 2002 Casino cash: $930478	Go and look at the moves the Broncos made on defense. Why not the Chiefs? I'll tell you why - the people running things at Arrowhead ****ed it all up this year. __________________ Chiefs game films
Posts: 296,992

12-07-2009, 02:51 PM	#82
FAX testing ... 1, 2, 3 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Tennessee Casino cash: $6753759	If, in two years, we're still wallowing in this mire, I'll join you guys in your wacky madness. Heck, I'll even be the guy who marches out front carrying the big baton thing and walking while tilted backwards and wearing a big, giant, fluffy hat. Ef' 'Em will be my watchwords and Destruction my middle name. Until then, I shall look forward to the ways and means whereby Pioli and company figure out how to fix this damn thing and implement their ideas. Although these arguments are rife with passion, I'm unconvinced that this, particular front office is simply a gang of incompetent stooges with an all-encompassing will to lose. Been there. Done that. FAX
Posts: 44,492