At number 3 the Chiefs should take a QB...

[smittysbar]

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

You don't know what his upside is, he's played 11 games.

Everything on your list can be corrected with proper coaching. And honestly, I'm tired of the assumption that he HAS to play in the spread. When he was given significant time in the PS (against Arizona, and not running the spread) he did a decent job. 59% - 174 yards - 1/1 TD/INT in a half of play. We're running the spread for the sake of the OL and offense in general - not completely because Thigpen CAN'T operate a pro-style offense.

Again, I'm NOT saying the kid should be given the starting job.

But it's pretty obvious that the biggest issues people have with him is that he's a 7th round pick and that his biggest success has come from a "gimmick" offense.

I think sometimes you just like to disagree. You tell me, seriously, what you see in him and tell us why we should spend time on him to develop. I could care less if he starts next season as long as we have a prospect waiting in the wings. It wasn't all about the line, they said that they went to what HE knew how to run, though it does help the line out and they needed the help.

He has 11 games for us to see, and so far any 3 of the QB's that may come out has shown more.

So I would like to know what you see.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Originally Posted by smittysbar

I think sometimes you just like to disagree. You tell me, seriously, what you see in him and tell us why we should spend time on him to develop. I could care less if he starts next season as long as we have a prospect waiting in the wings. It wasn't all about the line, they said that they went to what HE knew how to run, though it does help the line out and they needed the help.

He has 11 games for us to see, and so far any 3 of the QB's that may come out has shown more.

So I would like to know what you see.

I see exactly what most objective people would expect to see from a 7th round pick who's basically a rookie and has 11 games under his belt:

Inconsistency.

Questionable decision making.

Questionable footwork.

ALL things that not only can be improved upon with better coaching and more experience, but things you are ABSOLUTELY going to see in a rookie QB, regardless of where they were drafted. Eli Manning was the #1 overall pick, and looked like ass until the last 4 games and playoffs of 2007. Over 3.5 years after he had been drafted.

Your post proves my point exactly. People don't like him because he's a 7th round pick from a small school. Period.

And it will become even more obvious when Stafford, Bradford or Sanchez come in and make the same mistakes, but are afforded all the excuses that DON'T apply to Thigpen based on where he was drafted.

Huge double standard

[smittysbar]

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

I see exactly what most objective people would expect to see from a 7th round pick who's basically a rookie and has 11 games under his belt:

Inconsistency.

Questionable decision making.

Questionable footwork.

ALL things that not only can be improved upon with better coaching and more experience, but things you are ABSOLUTELY going to see in a rookie QB, regardless of where they were drafted. Eli Manning was the #1 overall pick, and looked like ass until the last 4 games and playoffs of 2007. Over 3.5 years after he had been drafted.

Your post proves my point exactly. People don't like him because he's a 7th round pick from a small school. Period.

And it will become even more obvious when Stafford, Bradford or Sanchez come in and make the same mistakes, but are afforded all the excuses that DON'T apply to Thigpen based on where he was drafted.

Huge double standard

NOT TRUE! Not for me, and I have NEVER said anything of the sort. I like him, I really do, but I don't believe he has the tools to be a viable starter in the NFL.

You tell me, do we give him a couple of years and find out? Do you see this in him to warrant this?

[OnTheWarpath15]

Originally Posted by smittysbar

NOT TRUE! Not for me, and I have NEVER said anything of the sort. I like him, I really do, but I don't believe he has the tools to be a viable starter in the NFL.

You tell me, do we give him a couple of years and find out? Do you see this in him to warrant this?

That's where the discussion takes a turn for me.

We're never going to find out what he can do, (at least in KC) because if we take a QB (and we should) there's not going to be a "competition."

You don't pay a guy $40M guaranteed to ride pine, especially when you are rebuilding.

If for some reason we're not in a position to take a QB, then I think the new coaching staff should be focuses on working with him to get him comfortable in a pro-style offense. He's capable, as he showed in the Arizona PS game. We weren't running the spread then, and he did a pretty good job in his half of work.

Regardless, the Tyler Thigpen we all know is dead.

Starter or backup, the new staff is likely going to run a pro-style offense, and he's going to have to adjust.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

That's where the discussion takes a turn for me.

We're never going to find out what he can do, (at least in KC) because if we take a QB (and we should) there's not going to be a "competition."

You don't pay a guy $40M guaranteed to ride pine, especially when you are rebuilding.

If for some reason we're not in a position to take a QB, then I think the new coaching staff should be focuses on working with him to get him comfortable in a pro-style offense. He's capable, as he showed in the Arizona PS game. We weren't running the spread then, and he did a pretty good job in his half of work.

Regardless, the Tyler Thigpen we all know is dead.

Starter or backup, the new staff is likely going to run a pro-style offense, and he's going to have to adjust.

I'm with you. That's my concern too. QBs taken in the first round are too often forced into the lineup for exactly that reason. Todd Collins mopped up in Washington in 2007 but could never win a QB competition with Jason Campbell. It took injury to finally convince Arizona to go with Warner over Leinart.

I just hope that if the Chiefs go with a QB early, that they'll give Thigpen a legit job to earn a starting job. I agree--it's difficult to convince a HC to bench a top 10 QB, even if he plays lousy.

[cdcox]

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

And it will become even more obvious when Stafford, Bradford or Sanchez come in and make the same mistakes, but are afforded all the excuses that DON'T apply to Thigpen based on where he was drafted.

Huge double standard

Right now, you put Stafford, Sanchez and Thigpen behind center you have them drop back with limited pressure and hit a reciever on a medium route where they are well-covered and Stafford and Sanchez will outshine Thigpen. Their base mechanics and accuracy are better than Thigpen's, today. That is the difference between a 1st and a 7th.

I won't defend Bradford, because I haven't seen him play much.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Originally Posted by cdcox

Right now, you put Stafford, Sanchez and Thigpen behind center you have them drop back with limited pressure and hit a reciever on a medium route where they are well-covered and Stafford and Sanchez will outshine Thigpen. Their base mechanics and accuracy are better than Thigpen's, today. That is the difference between a 1st and a 7th.

I won't defend Bradford, because I haven't seen him play much.

Which proves my point.

Those two SHOULD be more NFL ready, yet will be afforded the excuses.

Thigpen came in, and was asked to run an offense he hadn't practiced and was installed in the middle of the year. And did rather well, all things considered. He made mistakes all young QB's are going to make.

I'm starting to think that the NFL should just eliminate any picks we have past the 4th round, as this fanbase refuses to think anything good can come from a late round pick.

[cdcox]

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

Which proves my point.

Those two SHOULD be more NFL ready, yet will be afforded the excuses.

Thigpen came in, and was asked to run an offense he hadn't practiced and was installed in the middle of the year. And did rather well, all things considered. He made mistakes all young QB's are going to make.

I'm starting to think that the NFL should just eliminate any picks we have past the 4th round, as this fanbase refuses to think anything good can come from a late round pick.

If "afforded the excuses" means "shown more patience" then yes of course. Do you honestly think every player should be given the same opportunities?

My observation is that low draft choices who far-far exceed expectations start fast and keep improving steadily: Jarred Allen, Terrell Davis, Tom Brady. I don't know too many that take a long, slow painful development. For example, I'm not expecting Page to develop into a pro-bowler. He's a great 7th round pick, but we still need better play at safety, and I don't expect he'll improve much more than he has. He can be a contributer, and could fill in as a starter another year or so, but I'm not going to give him another 2 years to develop in hopes that some how he will become the player we need. But a fair number of 1st rounders need a few years of adjustment in to the NFL, and I'm very willing to give them that chance.

Would a few more late round guys develop if given the same opportunities as the early round picks? Sure. But the return on investment would be very low. You'd have to keep a ton of turds to find a few diamonds. No NFL team can afford to do that.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Originally Posted by cdcox

If "afforded the excuses" means "shown more patience" then yes of course.

It doesn't.

It means when the new guy overthrows a wide open WR for a TD, those folks will say, "well, he's young."

When Thigpen does it, he's a 7th round POS that will never amount to anything.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by cdcox

If "afforded the excuses" means "shown more patience" then yes of course. Do you honestly think every player should be given the same opportunities?

My observation is that low draft choices who far-far exceed expectations start fast and keep improving steadily: Jarred Allen, Terrell Davis, Tom Brady. I don't know too many that take a long, slow painful development. For example, I'm not expecting Page to develop into a pro-bowler. He's a great 7th round pick, but we still need better play at safety, and I don't expect he'll improve much more than he has. He can be a contributer, and could fill in as a starter another year or so, but I'm not going to give him another 2 years to develop in hopes that some how he will become the player we need. But a fair number of 1st rounders need a few years of adjustment in to the NFL, and I'm very willing to give them that chance.

Would a few more late round guys develop if given the same opportunities as the early round picks? Sure. But the return on investment would be very low. You'd have to keep a ton of turds to find a few diamonds. No NFL team can afford to do that.

cdcox, I agree that I get frustrated with people who use the argument "Brady succeeded as a 6th rounder, therefore all 6th round QBs deserve a shot." I can understand that argument. But I think once you start in the NFL, draft status goes out the window. Especially when you talk about a raw QB like Thigpen. I think it'd be different if Thigpen was a failure at the college level, but his draft status was downgraded because of the level of competition he played, not because of his measurables. but because of the school he played for.

I don't think you mortgage your future on the kid. But the kid has never been given a true chance to succeed. He's never had a real QBs coach and 95% of the attention from the coaches went to Croyle. He never played with a full playbook, as it was improvised in midseason. He never played alongside a decent running game. He never had the luxury of a defense that could help him win games. He never got to work with the top receivers like Bowe or Gonzalez until midseason.

I think Thigpen has proven enough to at least deserve a shot to be the favorite for next year's starting job. You have to bring in strong competition, but to suggest that he hasn't shown potential is ignoring the circumstances. Thigpen was thrown into a really lousy situation and while he didn't end great, he played about as well as you'd expect of anyone at that experience level.

[Manila-Chief]

Originally Posted by smittysbar

I think sometimes you just like to disagree. You tell me, seriously, what you see in him and tell us why we should spend time on him to develop. I could care less if he starts next season as long as we have a prospect waiting in the wings. It wasn't all about the line, they said that they went to what HE knew how to run, though it does help the line out and they needed the help.

He has 11 games for us to see, and so far any 3 of the QB's that may come out has shown more.

So I would like to know what you see.

Yep!!! Question is ... if there is a QBOTF at #3 ... do we take him ... or do we give Thigpen a chance to develop?

Yes, Tyler just may develop, but there is a bigger chance he may not. If he doesn't what do we do then? We have no promise of being in another position to select a QBOTF. I say take it now.

Now, all this chatter may be meaningless. All 3 could decide to stay in school. Or the ones who come out may be selected ahead of us. In that case we all hope Thigpen develops. But, if one of them is sitting there, take him. Allow Thigpen to start this year and see what he does. Would I be upset if he turns out to be another Breeze???

Oh, and rebuild ... I'm all in favor ... but, I'm not sure we took quality talent, and I am pretty sure that Herm and staff are not the coaches to develop them. I'm not down on them losing ... we have the #2 pick. And we will lose again next year if the coaches stay in place.