NFL Draft At number 3 the Chiefs should take a QB... - Page 5

Alphaman · 01-03-2009, 09:42 AM

However, Chiefs fans should not expect the same results as those delivered by Flacco and Ryan. I say that for mainly one reason. Both Flacco and Ryan finished their senior years at their respective schools. That level of maturity and leadership experience certainly helped them in their preparation for their rookie year in the NFL.

Both Stafford and Bradford will be underclassmen if they come out. They won't have the same level of maturity or leadership experience when they hit the NFL. I know they are both leaders, but in college being a senior in the lockerroom carries a lot weight and respect even if there is a talented QB in the lockerroom as well.

Take Mizzou for example. Last season Chase Daniel was a leader on the team, but THE leaders on the team were Pig Brown and Martin Rucker. Seniors carry the big stick in college.

smittysbar · 01-03-2009, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

I see exactly what most objective people would expect to see from a 7th round pick who's basically a rookie and has 11 games under his belt:

Inconsistency.

Questionable decision making.

Questionable footwork.

ALL things that not only can be improved upon with better coaching and more experience, but things you are ABSOLUTELY going to see in a rookie QB, regardless of where they were drafted. Eli Manning was the #1 overall pick, and looked like ass until the last 4 games and playoffs of 2007. Over 3.5 years after he had been drafted.

Your post proves my point exactly. People don't like him because he's a 7th round pick from a small school. Period.

And it will become even more obvious when Stafford, Bradford or Sanchez come in and make the same mistakes, but are afforded all the excuses that DON'T apply to Thigpen based on where he was drafted.

Huge double standard

NOT TRUE! Not for me, and I have NEVER said anything of the sort. I like him, I really do, but I don't believe he has the tools to be a viable starter in the NFL.

You tell me, do we give him a couple of years and find out? Do you see this in him to warrant this?

Coogs · 01-03-2009, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

How can you say with any certainty, that 1 year in, this was a failure?

For as much as I bash on Derrick Johnson, I still have a slight bit of hope that some competent ****ing coaching can turn him into what we expected from the 15th pick in the draft.

Same goes for Hali. Page. Pollard. Dorsey. McBride. Tyler. Carr. Leggett.

You can't tell me that all of these players are busts, when they've been coached by this staff. I'm not saying they are all going to turn into studs, but time will tell.

Again, patience.

Beat me too it!

smittysbar · 01-03-2009, 01:15 PM

Funny they told us that they were rebuilding 2 years ago................

**OnTheWarpath15** · 01-03-2009, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smittysbar

NOT TRUE! Not for me, and I have NEVER said anything of the sort. I like him, I really do, but I don't believe he has the tools to be a viable starter in the NFL.

You tell me, do we give him a couple of years and find out? Do you see this in him to warrant this?

That's where the discussion takes a turn for me.

We're never going to find out what he can do, (at least in KC) because if we take a QB (and we should) there's not going to be a "competition."

You don't pay a guy $40M guaranteed to ride pine, especially when you are rebuilding.

If for some reason we're not in a position to take a QB, then I think the new coaching staff should be focuses on working with him to get him comfortable in a pro-style offense. He's capable, as he showed in the Arizona PS game. We weren't running the spread then, and he did a pretty good job in his half of work.

Regardless, the Tyler Thigpen we all know is dead.

Starter or backup, the new staff is likely going to run a pro-style offense, and he's going to have to adjust.

**cdcox** · 01-03-2009, 01:21 PM

Double standards work both ways.

I love how some people on this board were calling JaMarcus Russell a bust in his first year of starting then turn around and drool all over Thigpen. They basically had the same kind of season.

Thigpen had a good season. Maybe he will develop into a franchise QB but he has a long way to go. He's still a long shot. I'd rather not invest another 2 years hoping he develops into a franchise guy. Yes, I'd be more patient with someone who has a better pedigree. The chances of success are much better because they are bringing something to the table that the 7th rounder just doesn't have.

I also see an inherent weakness in Thigpen's deep ball. He has good velocity on short and medium passes, but he constantly underthrows on the long ball. I don't think that can be fixed by coaching or conditioning.

**Manila-Chief** · 01-03-2009, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smittysbar

I think sometimes you just like to disagree. You tell me, seriously, what you see in him and tell us why we should spend time on him to develop. I could care less if he starts next season as long as we have a prospect waiting in the wings. It wasn't all about the line, they said that they went to what HE knew how to run, though it does help the line out and they needed the help.

He has 11 games for us to see, and so far any 3 of the QB's that may come out has shown more.

So I would like to know what you see.

Yep!!! Question is ... if there is a QBOTF at #3 ... do we take him ... or do we give Thigpen a chance to develop?

Yes, Tyler just may develop, but there is a bigger chance he may not. If he doesn't what do we do then? We have no promise of being in another position to select a QBOTF. I say take it now.

Now, all this chatter may be meaningless. All 3 could decide to stay in school. Or the ones who come out may be selected ahead of us. In that case we all hope Thigpen develops. But, if one of them is sitting there, take him. Allow Thigpen to start this year and see what he does. Would I be upset if he turns out to be another Breeze???

Oh, and rebuild ... I'm all in favor ... but, I'm not sure we took quality talent, and I am pretty sure that Herm and staff are not the coaches to develop them. I'm not down on them losing ... we have the #2 pick. And we will lose again next year if the coaches stay in place.

**OnTheWarpath15** · 01-03-2009, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdcox

Double standards work both ways.

I love how some people on this board were calling JaMarcus Russell a bust in his first year of starting then turn around and drool all over Thigpen. They basically had the same kind of season.

Thigpen had a good season. Maybe he will develop into a franchise QB but he has a long way to go. He's still a long shot. I'd rather not invest another 2 years hoping he develops into a franchise guy. Yes, I'd be more patient with someone who has a better pedigree. The chances of success are much better because they are bringing something to the table that the 7th rounder just doesn't have.

I also see an inherent weakness in Thigpen's deep ball. He has good velocity on short and medium passes, but he constantly underthrows on the long ball. I don't think that can be fixed by coaching or conditioning.

I disagree.

I absolutely think it can be corrected. It could literally be as easy as stepping into his deep throws - something he DOES NOT do.

He just kind of flips it out there.

The kid has too strong an arm to convince me he can't throw the ball more than 30 yards downfield. It's a footwork issue.

milkman · 01-03-2009, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danman

Just curious, what throws do you not see Bradford making? OU was on TV A LOT and I saw him make a lot of throws. Some people think his receivers were too wide open. I just don't get this argument. His accuracy is pretty good and I think that's very important.

Bradford's accuracy is unquestioned.

How a about a deep out with some zip?
I'm not saying he can't make that throw, and I'm not critisizing him for throwing to wide open receivers.
I'm just saying that I haven't seen that throw, as one example.
Until he shows he has the arm strength necessary to make that throw, his arm strength has to be questioed.

Quote:

This is also what scares me about Stafford. Has a great arm, but he got confused by Michigan Freaking State. What's he gonna do against the Titens, Steelers, or Ravens?

What people can't seem to grasp is that he's 20 year old kid.
20 year olds with strong arms still have a lot to learn, and their decision making is going to be questionable.
But he's young, and he seems to have a level head.
He still has the time to grow and mature and to improve that aspect of his game.

Quote:

Here's where I disagree. SC has a lot of blue chip athletes, but even the Chiefs have more talent than any college team. Clearly his level of play will suffer at first as he adjusts to the pro game. The thing about Sanchez is he reads defenses so well. They commented during the Rose Bowl that the coahing staff had him do more reading and film study than both Palmer and Leinart. I think that's only going to help him at the next level.

Good thoughts Milkman

Actually, I don't have that question, but it seems to be the "question".

I think he's the most NFL ready of the three, but I also think he's going to stay in school.

**cdcox** · 01-03-2009, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

And it will become even more obvious when Stafford, Bradford or Sanchez come in and make the same mistakes, but are afforded all the excuses that DON'T apply to Thigpen based on where he was drafted.

Huge double standard

Right now, you put Stafford, Sanchez and Thigpen behind center you have them drop back with limited pressure and hit a reciever on a medium route where they are well-covered and Stafford and Sanchez will outshine Thigpen. Their base mechanics and accuracy are better than Thigpen's, today. That is the difference between a 1st and a 7th.

I won't defend Bradford, because I haven't seen him play much.

**cdcox** · 01-03-2009, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

I disagree.

I absolutely think it can be corrected. It could literally be as easy as stepping into his deep throws - something he DOES NOT do.

He just kind of flips it out there.

The kid has too strong an arm to convince me he can't throw the ball more than 30 yards downfield. It's a footwork issue.

Okay, I'll give you that. Good point.

**OnTheWarpath15** · 01-03-2009, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdcox

Right now, you put Stafford, Sanchez and Thigpen behind center you have them drop back with limited pressure and hit a reciever on a medium route where they are well-covered and Stafford and Sanchez will outshine Thigpen. Their base mechanics and accuracy are better than Thigpen's, today. That is the difference between a 1st and a 7th.

I won't defend Bradford, because I haven't seen him play much.

Which proves my point.

Those two SHOULD be more NFL ready, yet will be afforded the excuses.

Thigpen came in, and was asked to run an offense he hadn't practiced and was installed in the middle of the year. And did rather well, all things considered. He made mistakes all young QB's are going to make.

I'm starting to think that the NFL should just eliminate any picks we have past the 4th round, as this fanbase refuses to think anything good can come from a late round pick.

chiefzilla1501 · 01-03-2009, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdcox

Double standards work both ways.

I love how some people on this board were calling JaMarcus Russell a bust in his first year of starting then turn around and drool all over Thigpen. They basically had the same kind of season.

Thigpen had a good season. Maybe he will develop into a franchise QB but he has a long way to go. He's still a long shot. I'd rather not invest another 2 years hoping he develops into a franchise guy. Yes, I'd be more patient with someone who has a better pedigree. The chances of success are much better because they are bringing something to the table that the 7th rounder just doesn't have.

I also see an inherent weakness in Thigpen's deep ball. He has good velocity on short and medium passes, but he constantly underthrows on the long ball. I don't think that can be fixed by coaching or conditioning.

Brady threw a really lousy below average long ball for 1 or 2 years. I remember him saying that his long balls weren't dipping and were difficult to catch. He spent an entire offseason working on those mechanics and his long ball improved markedly. Manning still overthrows his deep balls. If I'm not mistaken, Eli was so upset about his mechanics that he hired his own QBs coach to coach him into making better throws. Brady and Manning are not terrific at throwing the long ball. Their strength is on the short and intermediate routes. Personally, I think the ability to throw the long ball is grossly overrated.

As for Jamarcus vs. Thigpen, the difference is that the Raiders protected Jamarcus with a solid running game. Thigpen was in a pass-happy offense. It's rare to see a QB that inexperienced thrown into the offense that reliant on the pass. Much harder to be an effective QB when the defense is always expecting you to pass the ball.

chiefzilla1501 · 01-03-2009, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

That's where the discussion takes a turn for me.

We're never going to find out what he can do, (at least in KC) because if we take a QB (and we should) there's not going to be a "competition."

You don't pay a guy $40M guaranteed to ride pine, especially when you are rebuilding.

If for some reason we're not in a position to take a QB, then I think the new coaching staff should be focuses on working with him to get him comfortable in a pro-style offense. He's capable, as he showed in the Arizona PS game. We weren't running the spread then, and he did a pretty good job in his half of work.

Regardless, the Tyler Thigpen we all know is dead.

Starter or backup, the new staff is likely going to run a pro-style offense, and he's going to have to adjust.

I'm with you. That's my concern too. QBs taken in the first round are too often forced into the lineup for exactly that reason. Todd Collins mopped up in Washington in 2007 but could never win a QB competition with Jason Campbell. It took injury to finally convince Arizona to go with Warner over Leinart.

I just hope that if the Chiefs go with a QB early, that they'll give Thigpen a legit job to earn a starting job. I agree--it's difficult to convince a HC to bench a top 10 QB, even if he plays lousy.

**cdcox** · 01-03-2009, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

Which proves my point.

Those two SHOULD be more NFL ready, yet will be afforded the excuses.

Thigpen came in, and was asked to run an offense he hadn't practiced and was installed in the middle of the year. And did rather well, all things considered. He made mistakes all young QB's are going to make.

I'm starting to think that the NFL should just eliminate any picks we have past the 4th round, as this fanbase refuses to think anything good can come from a late round pick.

If "afforded the excuses" means "shown more patience" then yes of course. Do you honestly think every player should be given the same opportunities?

My observation is that low draft choices who far-far exceed expectations start fast and keep improving steadily: Jarred Allen, Terrell Davis, Tom Brady. I don't know too many that take a long, slow painful development. For example, I'm not expecting Page to develop into a pro-bowler. He's a great 7th round pick, but we still need better play at safety, and I don't expect he'll improve much more than he has. He can be a contributer, and could fill in as a starter another year or so, but I'm not going to give him another 2 years to develop in hopes that some how he will become the player we need. But a fair number of 1st rounders need a few years of adjustment in to the NFL, and I'm very willing to give them that chance.

Would a few more late round guys develop if given the same opportunities as the early round picks? Sure. But the return on investment would be very low. You'd have to keep a ton of turds to find a few diamonds. No NFL team can afford to do that.

**OnTheWarpath15** · 01-03-2009, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdcox

If "afforded the excuses" means "shown more patience" then yes of course.

It doesn't.

It means when the new guy overthrows a wide open WR for a TD, those folks will say, "well, he's young."

When Thigpen does it, he's a 7th round POS that will never amount to anything.

01-03-2009, 09:42 AM
Alphaman Veteran Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Austin, TX, USA Casino cash: $10004900	At number 3 the Chiefs should take a QB... However, Chiefs fans should not expect the same results as those delivered by Flacco and Ryan. I say that for mainly one reason. Both Flacco and Ryan finished their senior years at their respective schools. That level of maturity and leadership experience certainly helped them in their preparation for their rookie year in the NFL. Both Stafford and Bradford will be underclassmen if they come out. They won't have the same level of maturity or leadership experience when they hit the NFL. I know they are both leaders, but in college being a senior in the lockerroom carries a lot weight and respect even if there is a talented QB in the lockerroom as well. Take Mizzou for example. Last season Chase Daniel was a leader on the team, but THE leaders on the team were Pig Brown and Martin Rucker. Seniors carry the big stick in college.
Posts: 1,380

01-03-2009, 01:15 PM	#63
smittysbar Right in the Lumberyard Danny Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: LaPlata, MO Casino cash: $10004942	Funny they told us that they were rebuilding 2 years ago................ __________________
Posts: 6,646

01-03-2009, 01:21 PM	#65
cdcox www.nfl-forecast.com Join Date: Sep 2000 Casino cash: $-468231	Double standards work both ways. I love how some people on this board were calling JaMarcus Russell a bust in his first year of starting then turn around and drool all over Thigpen. They basically had the same kind of season. Thigpen had a good season. Maybe he will develop into a franchise QB but he has a long way to go. He's still a long shot. I'd rather not invest another 2 years hoping he develops into a franchise guy. Yes, I'd be more patient with someone who has a better pedigree. The chances of success are much better because they are bringing something to the table that the 7th rounder just doesn't have. I also see an inherent weakness in Thigpen's deep ball. He has good velocity on short and medium passes, but he constantly underthrows on the long ball. I don't think that can be fixed by coaching or conditioning.
Posts: 46,032