Chiefs The myth of Pioli - Page 2

B_Ambuehl · 12-07-2009, 01:12 PM

LOL I wonder if he's sharing that loaded contract he got from Clark with Bellichik.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/c...148&position=0

This time it’s personnel
Building to collapse
By Ron Borges
Monday, December 7, 2009 - Updated 4m ago
+ Recent Articles

MIAMI - Slowly but inexorably they are dissolving in front of our eyes. It is a process that didn’t begin this year for the New England Patriots [team stats] but way back in 2004, when nobody was paying attention to much else but the lifting of another Super Bowl banner.

That season they won their third Super Bowl in four seasons but also began a widely ignored decline that manifested itself emphatically the past month and came to a sad head yesterday at Land Shark Stadium when they lost for the third time in four weeks, blowing a 14-0 lead to be beaten at the buzzer by the Miami Dolphins [team stats], 22-21.

Five years ago, the Patriots draft garnered two starters, both on the first round. Not another player drafted in April of 2004 is still in uniform. That fallowness continued in 2005 when they again picked only two current starters. In 2006, they got only one, running back Laurence Maroney [stats], plus kicker Stephen Gostkowski. Then came the disaster of 2007, when only first-round pick Brandon Meriweather was good enough to still be in pro
football.

It is a bit early to know about 2008 but other than linebacker Jerod Mayo it again appears to be a sad lot. Second- and third-round picks Terrence Wheatley and Shawn Crable seldom see the field (Crable never has) and it is becoming increasingly more disastrous that cornerback Jonathan Wilhite sees so much of it. In those five years, the Patriots drafted 41 players and got eight starters, six on the first round. Otherwise they got what Bill Belichick kept saying was “value.” Yesterday, it didn’t look that way.

Free agency has produced similarly skimpy results. Early hits were made on Rodney Harrison [stats] and Mike Vrabel, but after that the cupboard has been bare. They paid $30 million to Adalius Thomas and promised he could cover Ocho Cinco and sack Peyton Manning. He’s done neither. Shawn Springs signed a three-year, $10.5 million deal last spring and hasn’t played a snap in a month, while poor Wilhite struggles out of position because he’s a nickel back asked to play corner and rookie Darius Butler goes out and proves that while he has potential he never saw receivers at UConn like the ones catching balls behind and in front of him now, as Greg Camarillo did on fourth-and-6 on the game’s most critical play yesterday.

While there were fruitful trades for Randy Moss and Wes Welker, they have netted big numbers but no championships, which is the same amount Moss’ teams have won since he first came into the NFL.

These facts led New Orleans Saints coach Sean Payton to tell his team before last Monday night’s game to be stout hearted and unafraid because “this isn’t the team that accomplished all that stuff.” Although his language was more colorful, his point was clear. These Patriots aren’t those Patriots.

“It’s not for lack of effort,” center Dan Koppen said not long after Dolphins kicker Dan Carpenter nailed a 41-yard field goal and Tom Brady [stats] responded by throwing his second interception of the day with :35 to play as Cameron Wake hammered him.

Koppen is right. The Patriots’ problems are not from lack of effort or lack of planning. They are from lack of talent. Not so lacking that they aren’t competitive, but lacking enough that most every game is a struggle now.

Today everyone will say, “They need a better pass rush.” From whom?

They will say, “They need better pass coverage.” From whom?

Some will say they need to run the ball more to take pressure off Brady and his ailing ring finger, sore shoulder and aching ribs. By whom?

Years ago, Chuck Fairbanks said it best. “It’s not about X’s and O’s. It’s about Jimmys and Joes.” For half a decade with the Pats people believed otherwise. In Bill We Trust became the motto, but does anyone honestly believe Bill Belichick forgot how to coach? A guy who has been watching game film since he was 6 now can’t break down film and discover a team’s weaknesses?

That’s not the problem. The problem is he can’t ask people to do what they are not capable of doing. Or, worse, he does and you end up with Sam Aiken, a guy brought here to replace Larry Izzo [stats] on special teams, as your third receiver making one great catch for a touchdown and dropping two key ones. Did he have a great game or a disastrous one? Probably both, which is A) not his fault because he’s playing a role he was never supposed to, and B) not something Belichick can change.

“We’ve got to find a way to play better football for 60 minutes in all phases,” Brady said. “Everyone has to focus on what they need to do better. I think that’s the most important thing. And be mentally tough to overcome adversity and if things don’t go your way, you’ve got to fight back. That’s a challenge for all of us. At times I think we do, and other times, I don’t think we fight very hard.”

The latter is a damning statement, but it’s also part of what separates the 2001 Pats from today’s. Remaining undaunted is a skill too and not everyone has it.

“We have leads in the second half, and leads in the fourth quarter,” Brady continued. “We’re just not closing the game out when we have the opportunity to. We’re searching for the answers, too.

“Coach always says, ‘You get what you deserve.’ In too many ways, you don’t deserve to win when you make as many mistakes as we do.”

That’s true whether you make them on the field or in the front office.

**DeezNutz** · 12-07-2009, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

Pioli is going no where. He and Clark are in this for the long haul together.

So excited about this. Thrilled.

BigChiefFan · 12-07-2009, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcellus

It was all luck and he didn't anything anyway. Basically he sat in his office all day and collected paychecks and executive awards.

He didn't draft Ray Lewis, either. :Elvis:

'Hamas' Jenkins · 12-07-2009, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAX

Yes, I'm quite certain that Pioli spent those years sitting on his thumbs and collecting his substantial (if not enormous) paycheck while watching Belichick make all the decisions and moves. Equally obvious is the fact that NFL executives know far less than internet BB posters when it comes to evaluating the contribution of their peers to their respective franchises.

FAX

And Eric Mangini was a great hire b/c of the tutelage of Belichick.
And Romeo Crennel.
And Charlie Weis had his "decided schematic advantage".

Jesus Christ, people. Barry Switzer won a Super Bowl as a head coach. Barry ****ing Switzer.

Lovie Smith, Dick Jauron, Jim Haslett, Ray Rhodes, Dom Capers, and yes the great Wayne Fontes were all voted as Coaches of the year.

Ted Thompson won executive of the year as did Randy Mueller, architect of the 2007 Miami Dolphins, and Carmen Policy of the 1999-2004 Browns.

FAX · 12-07-2009, 01:46 PM

Okay. It's reasonable to be pissed at Haley's decision-making lately. It's also understandable that fans are disappointed in Cassel who, apparently, has some serious delivery issues. Not only that, as Chiefs fans, we have every reason and right to heave giant cans of pork & beans at our run defense.

But, we have to recognize that our GM and HC are human. As such, they will make some mistakes. Throwing Pioli under the wheels because he has been unable to turn this enormous pile of dogshit of a franchise around in less than a year is just girlish.

Guys, we are an abysmal team. Talent-wise, we are Estelle Getty's wardrobe malfunction. With precious few exceptions, our personnel suck across the board. They need to be replaced, but it cannot be done in a year ... or even two. It's just something that we're going to have to deal with.

FAX

**The Bad Guy** · 12-07-2009, 01:47 PM

There is an argument you can make for every single avaialble GM candidate this last off-season.

DeCosta is with Ozzie Newsome.
Chris Polian is with his father.

It's impossible to know how much those guys are responsible for the success of their organizations and drafts - much like Pioli.

I just don't get the point arguing who the brains behind the operation was. No one is going to prove it for sure.

**The Bad Guy** · 12-07-2009, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeezNutz

So excited about this. Thrilled.

I'll give him more than a year on the job before I'm ready to shoot him out back.

ToxSocks · 12-07-2009, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bad Guy

There is an argument you can make for every single avaialble GM candidate this last off-season.

DeCosta is with Ozzie Newsome.
Chris Polian is with his father.

It's impossible to know how much those guys are responsible for the success of their organizations and drafts - much like Pioli.

I just don't get the point arguing who the brains behind the operation was. No one is going to prove it for sure.

DeCosta....That's the guy i wanted. Couldn't remember his name...

beach tribe · 12-07-2009, 01:50 PM

BB won 3 SBs with the rosters that they built.

BB shut down the Colts, Rams, and other high flying attacks, and coached the most dangerous offense in the history of football.
Pioli was the GM,and BB the coach when players such as Ty Law, Asante Samuel were acquired, along with Richard Seymore, and .. screw it, you know the names.

So far this season, the genius BB, has shown that his team is going to lose more games with Tom Terrific, at QB than it did with a Matt Cassel.

He's also shown that it's not his genius that won all those games. It was a special group of players who he, and Pioli, hand picked. If he was such a genius. He wouldn't be losing games, by constantly going for it on 4th, and he sure as hell wouldn't be getting his ass handed to him by Sean Payton.
Not to mention the fact that Tom Coughlin out coached him in one SB, and Mike Martz handed him another by not running the ball.
As far as all of you guys already giving up on a regime after one draft, and 12 games with one of the worst rosters in the league. I just have to laugh.
Is it very possible that they Fail? Ugh.... yeah, but they haven't failed yet morons. We won 2 games last year. We will probably win 4 this year. It's a start, and it as much as anyone could ask for considering the circumstances.
Nancies.

'Hamas' Jenkins · 12-07-2009, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAX

Okay. It's reasonable to be pissed at Haley's decision-making lately. It's also understandable that fans are disappointed in Cassel who, apparently, has some serious delivery issues. Not only that, as Chiefs fans, we have every reason and right to heave giant cans of pork & beans at our run defense.

But, we have to recognize that our GM and HC are human. As such, they will make some mistakes. Throwing Pioli under the wheels because he has been unable to turn this enormous pile of dogshit of a franchise around in less than a year is just girlish.

Guys, we are an abysmal team. Talent-wise, we are Estelle Getty's wardrobe malfunction. With precious few exceptions, our personnel suck across the board. They need to be replaced, but it cannot be done in a year ... or even two. It's just something that we're going to have to deal with.

FAX

FAX, you know that's a false choice.

No one was expecting this team to be the '85 Bears. I wasn't expecting them to be the '85 Chiefs 6-10.

With that said, when his two biggest acquisitions look like botched abortions, how does that inspire any confidence.

We aren't looking for dominance, we're looking for signs of life near the bottom of the Marianas Trench.

DaWolf · 12-07-2009, 01:51 PM

You know, if Bellichick gets the credit, then he should get the blame. He's also the one who decided to dump Seymour for a draft pick two years from now.

If Pioli gets the blame, then he also ought to get the credit for putting together a three time super bowl champion and the team of the decade.

The truth lies somewhere in the middle. It's really never one guy, it's the organization and how it is structured. How good are your scouts? Is your head coach asking for the right players that as a GM you are supposed to get him? Are you evaluating well? Is your organizational structure sound? Did you get lucky on some draft picks?

You have to give Pioli a few more years to see if he truly has a plan to get talent in here and build this team properly. Everyone said his process would take a few years, so Clark agreed to give him that. My biggest concern is his choice as head coach, but we'll see.

As far as the Pats go, some people around here were blaming the Pats going "only" 11-5 last year on Matt Cassel. Now that we've seen that Tom Brady himself is only good enough to go 7-5 this year, it's obvious that this isn't the same team it was two years ago.

Who knows? Based on this past offseason and even some of his in game decisions this year, and electing to call the plays himself instead of hiring an OC, maybe B.B. has gotten to the point that he's just trying to outsmart himself, what with all the draft day trading down and the Seymour trade. Maybe that's why Pioli felt it was the right time to leave. Or maybe the Pats got lucky for a few years and all of that is coming back at them now. Time will tell. But I will agree that this season and the moves we made in the offseason don't reflect well on the current administration.

If we're going to get anywhere, improvement must occur from the top down and mistakes must be learned from and not repeated, otherwise there will be a new management team in a few years...

'Hamas' Jenkins · 12-07-2009, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beach tribe

BB won 3 SBs with the rosters that they built.

BB shut down the Colts, Rams, and other high flying attacks, and coached the most dangerous offense in the history of football.
Pioli was the GM,and BB the coach when players such as Ty Law, Asante Samuel were acquired, along with Richard Seymore, and .. screw it, you know the names.

So far this season, the genius BB, has shown that his team is going to lose more games with Tom Terrific, at QB than it did with a Matt Cassel.

He's also shown that it's not his genius that won all those games. It was a special group of players who he, and Pioli, hand picked. If he was such a genius. He wouldn't be losing games, by constantly going for it on 4th, and he sure as hell wouldn't be getting his ass handed to him by Sean Payton.
Not to mention the fact that Tom Coughlin out coached him in one SB, and Mike Martz handed him another by not running the ball.
As far as all of you guys already giving up on a regime after one draft, and 12 games with one of the worst rosters in the league. I just have to laugh.
Is it very possible that they Fail? Ugh.... yeah, but they haven't failed yet morons. We won 2 games last year. We will probably win 4 this year. It's a start, and it as much as anyone could ask for considering the circumstances.
Nancies.

It's amazing that none of you dumb mother****ers, in spending voluminous time defending him, still don't realize that VP of Pro Personnel isn't the ****ing GM of the team.

Scott Pioli has been a GM for one offseason and 12 games. That's his experience in this position.

beach tribe · 12-07-2009, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAX

Okay. It's reasonable to be pissed at Haley's decision-making lately. It's also understandable that fans are disappointed in Cassel who, apparently, has some serious delivery issues. Not only that, as Chiefs fans, we have every reason and right to heave giant cans of pork & beans at our run defense.

But, we have to recognize that our GM and HC are human. As such, they will make some mistakes. Throwing Pioli under the wheels because he has been unable to turn this enormous pile of dogshit of a franchise around in less than a year is just girlish.

Guys, we are an abysmal team. Talent-wise, we are Estelle Getty's wardrobe malfunction. With precious few exceptions, our personnel suck across the board. They need to be replaced, but it cannot be done in a year ... or even two. It's just something that we're going to have to deal with.

FAX

Why do people not understand this?

This team was HORRIBLE. What could you have possibly been expecting?

philfree · 12-07-2009, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bad Guy

I'll give him more than a year on the job before I'm ready to shoot him out back.

They should have gotten this thing turned around by now. If we're not good now we'll never be any good with Pioli running the show. It's time to clean house and start over........./Chiefs Planet

PhilFree

**The Franchise** · 12-07-2009, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

It's amazing that none of you dumb mother****ers, in spending voluminous time defending him, still don't realize that VP of Pro Personnel isn't the ****ing GM of the team.

Scott Pioli has been a GM for one offseason and 12 games. That's his experience in this position.

FAX · 12-07-2009, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bad Guy

There is an argument you can make for every single avaialble GM candidate this last off-season.

DeCosta is with Ozzie Newsome.
Chris Polian is with his father.

It's impossible to know how much those guys are responsible for the success of their organizations and drafts - much like Pioli.

I just don't get the point arguing who the brains behind the operation was. No one is going to prove it for sure.

Well, the SB rings are real. And, although people can trot out endless examples of failed HCs and GMs who were hired away from winning franchises, it doesn't take history major to figure out that every situation is different and that generalizations are pointless to the level of silliness.

Will Pioli be successful here? Can he transfer his acknowledged success at NE to KC? Who knows? But, condemning Pioli after 1 off-season and 11 games (regardless of what we're currently registering on the suckometer) is nothing short of foolishness. It really is.

We desperately need talent. Almost everywhere. Even if we're lucky enough to acquire a difference-making, impact player, franchise god-man on both sides of the ball, it will take time to fill out this team. The sad fact is that we're below average at almost every position.

FAX

12-07-2009, 01:12 PM
B_Ambuehl Veteran Join Date: Apr 2005 Casino cash: $9705405	The myth of Pioli LOL I wonder if he's sharing that loaded contract he got from Clark with Bellichik. http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/c...148&position=0 This time it’s personnel Building to collapse By Ron Borges Monday, December 7, 2009 - Updated 4m ago + Recent Articles MIAMI - Slowly but inexorably they are dissolving in front of our eyes. It is a process that didn’t begin this year for the New England Patriots [team stats] but way back in 2004, when nobody was paying attention to much else but the lifting of another Super Bowl banner. That season they won their third Super Bowl in four seasons but also began a widely ignored decline that manifested itself emphatically the past month and came to a sad head yesterday at Land Shark Stadium when they lost for the third time in four weeks, blowing a 14-0 lead to be beaten at the buzzer by the Miami Dolphins [team stats], 22-21. Five years ago, the Patriots draft garnered two starters, both on the first round. Not another player drafted in April of 2004 is still in uniform. That fallowness continued in 2005 when they again picked only two current starters. In 2006, they got only one, running back Laurence Maroney [stats], plus kicker Stephen Gostkowski. Then came the disaster of 2007, when only first-round pick Brandon Meriweather was good enough to still be in pro football. It is a bit early to know about 2008 but other than linebacker Jerod Mayo it again appears to be a sad lot. Second- and third-round picks Terrence Wheatley and Shawn Crable seldom see the field (Crable never has) and it is becoming increasingly more disastrous that cornerback Jonathan Wilhite sees so much of it. In those five years, the Patriots drafted 41 players and got eight starters, six on the first round. Otherwise they got what Bill Belichick kept saying was “value.” Yesterday, it didn’t look that way. Free agency has produced similarly skimpy results. Early hits were made on Rodney Harrison [stats] and Mike Vrabel, but after that the cupboard has been bare. They paid $30 million to Adalius Thomas and promised he could cover Ocho Cinco and sack Peyton Manning. He’s done neither. Shawn Springs signed a three-year, $10.5 million deal last spring and hasn’t played a snap in a month, while poor Wilhite struggles out of position because he’s a nickel back asked to play corner and rookie Darius Butler goes out and proves that while he has potential he never saw receivers at UConn like the ones catching balls behind and in front of him now, as Greg Camarillo did on fourth-and-6 on the game’s most critical play yesterday. While there were fruitful trades for Randy Moss and Wes Welker, they have netted big numbers but no championships, which is the same amount Moss’ teams have won since he first came into the NFL. These facts led New Orleans Saints coach Sean Payton to tell his team before last Monday night’s game to be stout hearted and unafraid because “this isn’t the team that accomplished all that stuff.” Although his language was more colorful, his point was clear. These Patriots aren’t those Patriots. “It’s not for lack of effort,” center Dan Koppen said not long after Dolphins kicker Dan Carpenter nailed a 41-yard field goal and Tom Brady [stats] responded by throwing his second interception of the day with :35 to play as Cameron Wake hammered him. Koppen is right. The Patriots’ problems are not from lack of effort or lack of planning. They are from lack of talent. Not so lacking that they aren’t competitive, but lacking enough that most every game is a struggle now. Today everyone will say, “They need a better pass rush.” From whom? They will say, “They need better pass coverage.” From whom? Some will say they need to run the ball more to take pressure off Brady and his ailing ring finger, sore shoulder and aching ribs. By whom? Years ago, Chuck Fairbanks said it best. “It’s not about X’s and O’s. It’s about Jimmys and Joes.” For half a decade with the Pats people believed otherwise. In Bill We Trust became the motto, but does anyone honestly believe Bill Belichick forgot how to coach? A guy who has been watching game film since he was 6 now can’t break down film and discover a team’s weaknesses? That’s not the problem. The problem is he can’t ask people to do what they are not capable of doing. Or, worse, he does and you end up with Sam Aiken, a guy brought here to replace Larry Izzo [stats] on special teams, as your third receiver making one great catch for a touchdown and dropping two key ones. Did he have a great game or a disastrous one? Probably both, which is A) not his fault because he’s playing a role he was never supposed to, and B) not something Belichick can change. “We’ve got to find a way to play better football for 60 minutes in all phases,” Brady said. “Everyone has to focus on what they need to do better. I think that’s the most important thing. And be mentally tough to overcome adversity and if things don’t go your way, you’ve got to fight back. That’s a challenge for all of us. At times I think we do, and other times, I don’t think we fight very hard.” The latter is a damning statement, but it’s also part of what separates the 2001 Pats from today’s. Remaining undaunted is a skill too and not everyone has it. “We have leads in the second half, and leads in the fourth quarter,” Brady continued. “We’re just not closing the game out when we have the opportunity to. We’re searching for the answers, too. “Coach always says, ‘You get what you deserve.’ In too many ways, you don’t deserve to win when you make as many mistakes as we do.” That’s true whether you make them on the field or in the front office.
Posts: 2,613

12-07-2009, 01:46 PM	#19
FAX testing ... 1, 2, 3 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Tennessee Casino cash: $6753759	Okay. It's reasonable to be pissed at Haley's decision-making lately. It's also understandable that fans are disappointed in Cassel who, apparently, has some serious delivery issues. Not only that, as Chiefs fans, we have every reason and right to heave giant cans of pork & beans at our run defense. But, we have to recognize that our GM and HC are human. As such, they will make some mistakes. Throwing Pioli under the wheels because he has been unable to turn this enormous pile of dogshit of a franchise around in less than a year is just girlish. Guys, we are an abysmal team. Talent-wise, we are Estelle Getty's wardrobe malfunction. With precious few exceptions, our personnel suck across the board. They need to be replaced, but it cannot be done in a year ... or even two. It's just something that we're going to have to deal with. FAX
Posts: 44,492

12-07-2009, 01:47 PM	#20
The Bad Guy Scott Pioli Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: The Copacobana Casino cash: $9283645	There is an argument you can make for every single avaialble GM candidate this last off-season. DeCosta is with Ozzie Newsome. Chris Polian is with his father. It's impossible to know how much those guys are responsible for the success of their organizations and drafts - much like Pioli. I just don't get the point arguing who the brains behind the operation was. No one is going to prove it for sure. __________________
Posts: 23,216

12-07-2009, 01:50 PM	#23
beach tribe Keep doubting J MFing Houston Join Date: May 2007 Location: ft.lauderdale Casino cash: $3938036	BB won 3 SBs with the rosters that they built. BB shut down the Colts, Rams, and other high flying attacks, and coached the most dangerous offense in the history of football. Pioli was the GM,and BB the coach when players such as Ty Law, Asante Samuel were acquired, along with Richard Seymore, and .. screw it, you know the names. So far this season, the genius BB, has shown that his team is going to lose more games with Tom Terrific, at QB than it did with a Matt Cassel. He's also shown that it's not his genius that won all those games. It was a special group of players who he, and Pioli, hand picked. If he was such a genius. He wouldn't be losing games, by constantly going for it on 4th, and he sure as hell wouldn't be getting his ass handed to him by Sean Payton. Not to mention the fact that Tom Coughlin out coached him in one SB, and Mike Martz handed him another by not running the ball. As far as all of you guys already giving up on a regime after one draft, and 12 games with one of the worst rosters in the league. I just have to laugh. Is it very possible that they Fail? Ugh.... yeah, but they haven't failed yet morons. We won 2 games last year. We will probably win 4 this year. It's a start, and it as much as anyone could ask for considering the circumstances. Nancies.
Posts: 21,429

12-07-2009, 01:51 PM	#25
DaWolf Cry havoc... Join Date: Aug 2000 Casino cash: $10007725	You know, if Bellichick gets the credit, then he should get the blame. He's also the one who decided to dump Seymour for a draft pick two years from now. If Pioli gets the blame, then he also ought to get the credit for putting together a three time super bowl champion and the team of the decade. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. It's really never one guy, it's the organization and how it is structured. How good are your scouts? Is your head coach asking for the right players that as a GM you are supposed to get him? Are you evaluating well? Is your organizational structure sound? Did you get lucky on some draft picks? You have to give Pioli a few more years to see if he truly has a plan to get talent in here and build this team properly. Everyone said his process would take a few years, so Clark agreed to give him that. My biggest concern is his choice as head coach, but we'll see. As far as the Pats go, some people around here were blaming the Pats going "only" 11-5 last year on Matt Cassel. Now that we've seen that Tom Brady himself is only good enough to go 7-5 this year, it's obvious that this isn't the same team it was two years ago. Who knows? Based on this past offseason and even some of his in game decisions this year, and electing to call the plays himself instead of hiring an OC, maybe B.B. has gotten to the point that he's just trying to outsmart himself, what with all the draft day trading down and the Seymour trade. Maybe that's why Pioli felt it was the right time to leave. Or maybe the Pats got lucky for a few years and all of that is coming back at them now. Time will tell. But I will agree that this season and the moves we made in the offseason don't reflect well on the current administration. If we're going to get anywhere, improvement must occur from the top down and mistakes must be learned from and not repeated, otherwise there will be a new management team in a few years...
Posts: 6,798

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