Terez Paylor mocks us a CB

[O.city]

I think Cooks has ceiling limitations that Beckham doesn't though

[The Franchise]

Originally Posted by O.city

I think Cooks has ceiling limitations that Beckham doesn't though

Those being what exactly?

[RealSNR]

Originally Posted by O.city

I think Cooks has ceiling limitations that Beckham doesn't though

His size?

There are receivers shorter and scrawnier than him in the NFL who are incredible pros. That's because they know how to make their athleticism work for them.

Cooks is absolutely that kind of receiver.

[Saccopoo]

Originally Posted by O.city

I think Cooks has ceiling limitations that Beckham doesn't though

And I think that Moncrief goes above Beckham with those non-limiters as Beckham does Cooks.

Those limiters being size, arm length, verticality, speed, blocking ability, etc.

All three are exceptionally solid WR prospects, run solid routes, do the little things, but when you consider that:

Cooks: 5'10", 189 lbs., 30 3/4" arms, 9 5/8" hands, 4.33 40, 36.0" vert, 120" broad
Beckham: 5'11", 195 lbs., 32 3/4" arms, 10" hands, 4.43 40, 38.5" vert, 122" broad
Moncrief: 6'2 1/2", 221 lbs., 32 3/8" arms, 9 1/8" hands, 4.40 40, 39.5" vert, 132" broad

Beckham is bigger than Cooks with better explosiveness, Moncrief is bigger than Beckham with more explosiveness.

All three run great routes. All three block well. All three jet off the line.

What's the difference? What's the "limitations" on one versus the other?

All things being relatively equal, I take the guy who's 6'2 1/2", 221 lbs., versus the 5'10", 189 lb. guy because he's going to be able to be more physical, take more punishment, be more effective in blocking, etc.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by Saccopoo

And I think that Moncrief goes above Beckham with those non-limiters as Beckham does Cooks.

Those limiters being size, arm length, verticality, speed, blocking ability, etc.

All three are exceptionally solid WR prospects, run solid routes, do the little things, but when you consider that:

Cooks: 5'10", 189 lbs., 30 3/4" arms, 9 5/8" hands, 4.33 40, 36.0" vert, 120" broad
Beckham: 5'11", 195 lbs., 32 3/4" arms, 10" hands, 4.43 40, 38.5" vert, 122" broad
Moncrief: 6'2 1/2", 221 lbs., 32 3/8" arms, 9 1/8" hands, 4.40 40, 39.5" vert, 132" broad

Beckham is bigger than Cooks with better explosiveness, Moncrief is bigger than Beckham with more explosiveness.

All three run great routes. All three block well. All three jet off the line.

What's the difference? What's the "limitations" on one versus the other?

All things being relatively equal, I take the guy who's 6'2 1/2", 221 lbs., versus the 5'10", 189 lb. guy because he's going to be able to be more physical, take more punishment, be more effective in blocking, etc.

Moncrief doesn't have near the hands or catching ability of those two though. He seems to be more of a body catcher.

[Nightfyre]

Originally Posted by O.city

Moncrief doesn't have near the hands or catching ability of those two though. He seems to be more of a body catcher.

That's coachable, though. If he can be coached to attack the ball at the highest point with two hands, he is going to be one of the best receivers in the league.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by Nightfyre

That's coachable, though. If he can be coached to attack the ball at the highest point with two hands, he is going to be one of the best receivers in the league.

I don't know if it is. Seems more of an instinctual thing. Kind of like with Bowe.

[Saccopoo]

Originally Posted by O.city

I don't know if it is. Seems more of an instinctual thing. Kind of like with Bowe.

No, running a 4.40 40 at 6' 2 1/2", 221 lbs., with a 40" vertical is the gift.

Teaching a guy to use his hands a bit better is repetition. Like a golf swing, it's just how he learned. That's correctable.

I do agree that Beckham has some of the finest hands I've ever seen at that level. Highpoints the ball as well as anyone and his catch radius with those arms is amazing.

However, the combination of size to speed to vertical that Moncrief has is ridiculous. And it's not Baldwin size/speed/vertical. Moncrief's version is usable and translates to the football field.

The guy knows when to shorten or lengthen his stride to maximize the speed he needs. Absolutely jets off the line where guys like Baldwin and our current receiver Hemingway need a little bit of runway to get up to speed. (It's like an F-16 versus a C-130 getting to 350 mph. Both can get there, but one just does it a hell of a lot faster.)

Also, the one thing is that with an accurate QB like Alex Smith, the highpointing issue isn't as much of an issue versus getting off the line, getting into your breaks and hitting your spot. A less accurate QB needs a guy like Beckham to be able to go get the ball and make sure that it's in his hands. (Think Stafford versus Smith.) Smith and Reid's offense needs a guy to be at a spot and the ability to separate once the ball and the receiver are together. It's what held back this offense initially and what the potential was when we saw Avery actually hold onto a ball.

I love Beckham, but I'm convinced he won't be there at #23 at this point. The next guy I'd take is Moncrief, and I do like Moncrief's ability to break free and turn upfield. I don't think that there is a guy in this draft that is more capable in that regard than Moncrief other than Watkins.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by Saccopoo

No, running a 4.40 40 at 6' 2 1/2", 221 lbs., with a 40" vertical is the gift.

Teaching a guy to use his hands a bit better is repetition. Like a golf swing, it's just how he learned. That's correctable.

I do agree that Beckham has some of the finest hands I've ever seen at that level. Highpoints the ball as well as anyone and his catch radius with those arms is amazing.

However, the combination of size to speed to vertical that Moncrief has is ridiculous. And it's not Baldwin size/speed/vertical. Moncrief's version is usable and translates to the football field.

The guy knows when to shorten or lengthen his stride to maximize the speed he needs. Absolutely jets off the line where guys like Baldwin and our current receiver Hemingway need a little bit of runway to get up to speed. (It's like an F-16 versus a C-130 getting to 350 mph. Both can get there, but one just does it a hell of a lot faster.)

Also, the one thing is that with an accurate QB like Alex Smith, the highpointing issue isn't as much of an issue versus getting off the line, getting into your breaks and hitting your spot. A less accurate QB needs a guy like Beckham to be able to go get the ball and make sure that it's in his hands. (Think Stafford versus Smith.) Smith and Reid's offense needs a guy to be at a spot and the ability to separate once the ball and the receiver are together. It's what held back this offense initially and what the potential was when we saw Avery actually hold onto a ball.

I love Beckham, but I'm convinced he won't be there at #23 at this point. The next guy I'd take is Moncrief, and I do like Moncrief's ability to break free and turn upfield. I don't think that there is a guy in this draft that is more capable in that regard than Moncrief other than Watkins.

I agree Beckham is probably gone when we pick.

Similarly to the golf swing, under pressure you revert to things you know. It takes a lot of repetition to change muscle memory.

With his focus issues from time to time, paired with being a body catcher, it's tough to endorse taking Moncrief over say Cooks.

[RunKC]

Originally Posted by Saccopoo

And I think that Moncrief goes above Beckham with those non-limiters as Beckham does Cooks.

Those limiters being size, arm length, verticality, speed, blocking ability, etc.

All three are exceptionally solid WR prospects, run solid routes, do the little things, but when you consider that:

Cooks: 5'10", 189 lbs., 30 3/4" arms, 9 5/8" hands, 4.33 40, 36.0" vert, 120" broad
Beckham: 5'11", 195 lbs., 32 3/4" arms, 10" hands, 4.43 40, 38.5" vert, 122" broad
Moncrief: 6'2 1/2", 221 lbs., 32 3/8" arms, 9 1/8" hands, 4.40 40, 39.5" vert, 132" broad

Beckham is bigger than Cooks with better explosiveness, Moncrief is bigger than Beckham with more explosiveness.

All three run great routes. All three block well. All three jet off the line.

What's the difference? What's the "limitations" on one versus the other?

All things being relatively equal, I take the guy who's 6'2 1/2", 221 lbs., versus the 5'10", 189 lb. guy because he's going to be able to be more physical, take more punishment, be more effective in blocking, etc.

Another reason we might be looking at the big WR's is because in the WCO that Reid runs it's a nice benefit to have big guys like Bowe to block out DB's on that cross routes/short routes.
That's a big reason why Alex Smith trusted Bowe later on IMO. His TE's in SF gave him that huge benefit.

Here's a great example.



It's really ****ing hard for DB's to defend against these guys on plays like this, that we run a lot of in this system.

This is why they LOVE Mike Evans IMO. Too bad he is out of our reach.

[Ragged Robin]

Originally Posted by RunKC

Another reason we might be looking at the big WR's is because in the WCO that Reid runs it's a nice benefit to have big guys like Bowe to block out DB's on that cross routes/short routes.
That's a big reason why Alex Smith trusted Bowe later on IMO. His TE's in SF gave him that huge benefit.

Here's a great example.

It's really ****ing hard for DB's to defend against these guys on plays like this, that we run a lot of in this system.

This is why they LOVE Mike Evans IMO. Too bad he is out of our reach.

Bowe did well late in the year because they lined him up in the slot in 11 personnel or motioned him inside where he can use his body to guard against defenders in the middle of the field (also easier for him to get open by design since he's not a polished route runner who can create separation on his own). The body type is not too big of a deal at split end or even flanker where our true #1 will be lining up. Just need someone fluid on the outside. I'm not a fan of the little dude receivers but not a fan of the big lumbering ones like Coleman/Evans either. They should pick someone up around the same size as Bowe (6'1-6'2) like Moncrief.

[Coochie liquor]

Originally Posted by Saccopoo

And I think that Moncrief goes above Beckham with those non-limiters as Beckham does Cooks.

Those limiters being size, arm length, verticality, speed, blocking ability, etc.

All three are exceptionally solid WR prospects, run solid routes, do the little things, but when you consider that:

Cooks: 5'10", 189 lbs., 30 3/4" arms, 9 5/8" hands, 4.33 40, 36.0" vert, 120" broad
Beckham: 5'11", 195 lbs., 32 3/4" arms, 10" hands, 4.43 40, 38.5" vert, 122" broad
Moncrief: 6'2 1/2", 221 lbs., 32 3/8" arms, 9 1/8" hands, 4.40 40, 39.5" vert, 132" broad

Beckham is bigger than Cooks with better explosiveness, Moncrief is bigger than Beckham with more explosiveness.

All three run great routes. All three block well. All three jet off the line.

What's the difference? What's the "limitations" on one versus the other?

All things being relatively equal, I take the guy who's 6'2 1/2", 221 lbs., versus the 5'10", 189 lb. guy because he's going to be able to be more physical, take more punishment, be more effective in blocking, etc.

I agree I'd also take the bigger guy IF I were taking a wr in round 1. But I hope we go D in the first and 3rd. Our D lost us way more games than out O did.