***Official 2023 STL Cardinals Thread ***

[BigRedChief]

2023 thread. Walker makes the roster. I'll update the rosters and opening day lineup when its official

2023 Opening Day Lineup

Spoiler!

Donovan 2B
Nootbar RF
Goldschmidt 1B
Arenado 3B
Wilson Contreras C
Tyler O'Neill LF
Gorman DH
Jordan Walker RF
Tommy Edman SS

2022 Opening Day roster.

Spoiler!

The Cardinals anticipated 26-player Opening Day roster projects as follows, but will not become official until Thursday, March 30:
PITCHERS (13): Jack Flaherty-RHP, Giovanny Gallegos-RHP, Ryan Helsley-RHP, Jordan Hicks-RHP, Steven Matz-LHP, Miles Mikolas-RHP, Jordan Montgomery-LHP, Packy Naughton-LHP, Andre Pallante-RHP, Chris Stratton-RHP, Zack Thompson-LHP, Drew VerHagen-RHP, and Jake Woodford-RHP;
CATCHERS (2): Willson Contreras and Andrew Knizner;
INFIELDERS (6): Nolan Arenado, Brendan Donovan, Tommy Edman, Paul Goldschmidt, Nolan Gorman and Taylor Motter;
OUTFIELDERS (5): Alec Burleson, Dylan Carlson, Lars Nootbaar, Tyler O’Neill and Jordan Walker;
INJURED LIST (3): Paul DeJong-INF, Wilking Rodríguez-RHP, Adam Wainwright-RHP.

For the new Cardinal fans that joined the Planet since last year, here are some of the historical threads going back to 2006.

Spoiler!

2022 thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/show...8#post16877588
2021 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=337124
2020 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=329273
2019 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=320239
2018 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=312812
2012 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=254619
etc.
All the way back to 2006 WS
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=312812

[George Liquor]

Originally Posted by Rams Fan

Depends on what you define as long way off from contending.

Last time this team probably could’ve seriously contended for a WS was 2015.

Last time they could’ve contended for a WS if the offense didn’t absolutely shit themselves with OK pitching? 2019.

2020- present has had serious issues in the rotation.

Contenders for what we want (world series) not what dewallet and mozo want (3 million in attendance and a wild card birth)

[Rams Fan]

Originally Posted by bdj23

Contenders for what we want (world series) not what dewallet and mozo want (3 million in attendance and a wild card birth)

Then the answer is 2015 or 2019, with no other teams that contended between 2015- now aside from 2019.

[George Liquor]

I had 2015 in mind when i wrote my post because they looked like shit against the Nationals in the 2019 NLCS

[Rams Fan]

Originally Posted by bdj23

I had 2015 in mind when i wrote my post because they looked like shit against the Nationals in the 2019 NLCS

Offense was horrible vs the Nats and almost got no-hit twice. Doesn’t change that from being the last time I thought they could win or compete for a WS.

[George Liquor]

Originally Posted by Rams Fan

Offense was horrible vs the Nats and almost got no-hit twice. Doesn’t change that from being the last time I thought they could win or compete for a WS.

If they beat the Nats, they weren't beating the 107 win Astros

[Rams Fan]

Originally Posted by bdj23

If they beat the Nats, they weren't beating the 107 win Astros

Probably not.

[George Liquor]

Plus Mozo probably would have gotten a lifetime contract if that team made it to the World Series

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Your goal should be to build the 2004 Cardinals. You won't always win it all even if you do, but that should be the goal.

[Rams Fan]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Your goal should be to build the 2004 Cardinals. You won't always win it all even if you do, but that should be the goal.

So, have your rotation be centered around 2 reclamation projects, one of which was coming off severe injury problems (who would miss the WS but go onto win the CYA in 2005), 2 #3-4 caliber SPs, and arguably the second best SP the organization has developed in the past 30 years anchored by the one of the greatest hitters of all time, a HoF 3B, a great CF, and a good SS?

Personally, I think the 2005 Cardinals would be the better example of how to want to construct a team. 2004 had a lot of things go right. 2005 was basically the same team with a better rotation and Nuñez at 3B with Rolen being injured.

MV3 is something that I don't think can be easily replicated.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by Rams Fan

So, have your rotation be centered around 2 reclamation projects, one of which was coming off severe injury problems (who would miss the WS but go onto win the CYA in 2005), 2 #3-4 caliber SPs, and arguably the second best SP the organization has developed in the past 30 years anchored by the one of the greatest hitters of all time, a HoF 3B, a great CF, and a good SS?

Personally, I think the 2005 Cardinals would be the better example of how to want to construct a team. 2004 had a lot of things go right. 2005 was basically the same team with a better rotation and Nuñez at 3B with Rolen being injured.

MV3 is something that I don't think can be easily replicated.

You should build your team to be as much of a juggernaut as possible. That team had HOF talent acquired through the draft, shrewd trades, reclamation projects, and augmented it with excellent FA signings.

Mozeliak would have been too scared to trade away Bud Smith and Polanco for Rolen. He would have thought Kent Bottenfield was a lock down ace. He would have never bargain shopped for Carpenter or traded peanuts for Larry Walker. It ain't in him.

[Rams Fan]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

You should build your team to be as much of a juggernaut as possible. That team had HOF talent acquired through the draft, shrewd trades, reclamation projects, and augmented it with excellent FA signings.

Mozeliak would have been too scared to trade away Bud Smith and Polanco for Rolen. He would have thought Kent Bottenfield was a lock down ace. He would have never bargain shopped for Carpenter or traded peanuts for Larry Walker. It ain't in him.

You're making me defend Mozeliak here and wanting to view his tenure in two different eras as I think his style of moves are dramatically different from 2008-2014 vs 2015-present.

For the sake of this argument, I'm throwing out anything he did good or bad from 2008-2014, as I don't think his thought process is the same.

To Mozeliak's credit, he acquired Arenado (a 3B who is probably of similar caliber to Rolen both offensively and defensively) for jackshit and Goldschmidt for roughly the equivalent of Smith + Polanco with Weaver and Kelly.

His most notable reclamation project during this time was Mikolas.

I'd say the biggest issues Mozeliak/Cardinals have had during this time (2015-present) are the following:

-Doing the bare minimum to improve the team in FA. For example, at a surface level, signing Matz and Contreras were steps in the right direction but having those be the only moves of note made in FA isn't enough to move the needle to contend.
-Targeting middle-of-the-road starters. Leake and Matz shouldn't be the centerpieces of an off-season in free agency.
-Focusing on relievers who induce ground balls instead of strikeouts.
-Spending $ on the wrong relievers (Cecil, Holland, though I think Holland's issue was more due to when he was signed in-season).
-Relying on Frankenstein's monster for the BP and rotation the past 3 seasons.
-Letting Yadi have a swan song in 2022 when he should have been gone before then as well as continuing to delay the inevitable.
-Taveras' death.
-Focusing on having a bunch of guys offensively/defensively who are above average while not developing any superstars.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

The biggest issue Mozeliak has is not having Walt Jocketty and Jeff Luhnow to make him look like he knows what he's doing.

[Rams Fan]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

The biggest issue Mozeliak has is not having Walt Jocketty and Jeff Luhnow to make him look like he knows what he's doing.

Except Jocketty basically said **** prospects and went all-in for the better part of a 7 season period before ultimately losing his job due to beefing with Luhnow.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Originally Posted by Rams Fan

The worst outfield is in part due to Nootbar and TON being injured, leaving guys like Burleson, Yepez, and Walker to play the corners when none of them should be out there aside from Walker, who projects as a 1B or DH and has only been playing OF full-time since August of last year. Carlson doesn't hit enough to justify playing him full-time, but Nootbar along with Donovan. Both of whom I consider to above average to average defensively in the OF.

Edman is awesome and can basically play anywhere, but should be moved to 2B long-term when Winn is ready. Still leaves a hole in CF unless they intend on keeping TON (which I don't foresee happening). This forces Gorman or Walker to DH. I'm willing to sacrifice this season to let Walker develop.

The rotation is a massive issue and I don't really see anyone signed for next season, aside from Mikolas, under contract that I would think can be relied on to be an above average starter. I'd consider Montgomery to be above average, but he'll be a FA.

That leaves a rotation of Mikolas and a bunch of dog shit.

To possibly resolve long-term problems by acquiring prospects or players under contract for the future, as well as allow younger players the opportunity to play, I'd do the following at the deadline:

-Trade Flaherty
-Either extend or trade Montgomery
-Trade Stratton
-Trade TON
-Trade DeJong and promote Winn
-Trade Burleson or Yepez
-DFA Kinzer and play Herrera
-DFA Matz

Probably results in 90-100 losses this year, but I don't care.

Next thing should be for Mo to be fired, but I doubt that makes a difference if DeWitt is unwilling to invest in pitching.

Noot hitting 3rd is embarrassing

[George Liquor]

Noot is near the bottom of the list of things that are concerning with this abomination