Americans are working less

[IowaHawkeyeChief]

You are going to feel less connected to your job and company if you work remotely. It's just true. Some of my best memories are working with friends at a fortune 500 company right out of college. Great times and I worked hard for the company, as you should, because I agreed to the pay. Most employees prefer more pay in today's job hopping world than a defined benefit retirement/pension plan. This allows them to contribute to a 401k and that money is theirs. If a person saves appropriately, they would be able to purchase lifetime income at retirement that most likely would be similar to what a pension plan would be, but would have more flexibility to make those decisions. If pension plans were offered, the employer would have to pay less in salary, and this is not appealing to the current workforce. This isn't the big bad employer attacking workers. This is the employer's reaction to the current hiring marketplace.

[Third Eye]

Originally Posted by IowaHawkeyeChief

You are going to feel less connected to your job and company if you work remotely. It's just true. Some of my best memories are working with friends at a fortune 500 company right out of college. Great times and I worked hard for the company, as you should, because I agreed to the pay. Most employees prefer more pay in today's job hopping world than a defined benefit retirement/pension plan. This allows them to contribute to a 401k and that money is theirs. If a person saves appropriately, they would be able to purchase lifetime income at retirement that most likely would be similar to what a pension plan would be, but would have more flexibility to make those decisions. If pension plans were offered, the employer would have to pay less in salary, and this is not appealing to the current workforce. This isn't the big bad employer attacking workers. This is the employer's reaction to the current hiring marketplace.

As a former pension actuary, the move from pension to 401k was primarily driven by desire to de-risk on the employer side. Plain and simple. Yes, portability is an advantage for employees, but let's not get it confused. The current hiring marketplace is a symptom of the disincentivizing of staying long-term, not the other way around.

[IowaHawkeyeChief]

Originally Posted by Third Eye

As a former pension actuary, the move from pension to 401k was primarily driven by desire to de-risk on the employer side. Plain and simple. Yes, portability is an advantage for employees, but let's not get it confused. The current hiring marketplace is a symptom of the disincentivizing of staying long-term, not the other way around.

As someone who worked closely with ERISA and plans in the past I don't necessarily disagree. However, as 401k's became more prevalent in the late 80's, it allowed certainty on the books for employer, as you mentioned, as well as an alternative for employees. This de-risking was necessary to compete in the evolving global economy, more so, than "how can we screw employees". Those that needed to compete for employees on the benefit side, still had substantial cost for matching contributions/profit sharing contributions, it was just a much more predictable cost. Many employers have went to cash balance plans in lieu of traditional Defined benefit plans in addition to their 401k plans. While this continues to grow and is a great benefit for employees, I've seen many employees leave and go to companies that don't offer a money purchase plan at all, which is a huge loss of a benefit. As an employee with a money purchase plan, I prefer the cash balance over a traditional pension plan for a variety of reasons.

[Rain Man]

Originally Posted by IowaHawkeyeChief

As someone who worked closely with ERISA and plans in the past I don't necessarily disagree. However, as 401k's became more prevalent in the late 80's, it allowed certainty on the books for employer, as you mentioned, as well as an alternative for employees. This de-risking was necessary to compete in the evolving global economy, more so, than "how can we screw employees". Those that needed to compete for employees on the benefit side, still had substantial cost for matching contributions/profit sharing contributions, it was just a much more predictable cost. Many employers have went to cash balance plans in lieu of traditional Defined business plans in addition to their 401k plans. While this continues to grow and is a great benefit for employees, I've seen many employees leave and go to companies that don't offer a money purchase plan at all. As an employee with a money purchase plan, I prefer the cash balance over a traditional pension plan for a variety of reasons.

It's interesting to me that annuities still exist, as they're essentially a self-funded pension. So they've obviously found a way to make the model work.

On paper, annuities make a ton of sense to me. As an individual, I have to worry about a market that goes south for a decade. As a perpetually living corporation, an annuity (or a pension plan) doesn't need to worry about that as long as they're adequately funded. I guess there are some variables such as life spans that could be a risk, but it seems like those could be built in.

I'm not necessarily advocating for the return of pensions, but my own observations is that people who get them feel much more secure in retirement, rightly or wrongly.

I'm also a big fan of society putting $1,000 into a long-term deferred investment fund for every kid that's born. It's not a huge cost, and it confers huge long-term benefits to the kid.

[IowaHawkeyeChief]

Originally Posted by Rain Man

It's interesting to me that annuities still exist, as they're essentially a self-funded pension. So they've obviously found a way to make the model work.

On paper, annuities make a ton of sense to me. As an individual, I have to worry about a market that goes south for a decade. As a perpetually living corporation, an annuity (or a pension plan) doesn't need to worry about that. I guess there are some variables such as life spans that could be a risk, but it seems like those could be built in.

I'm not necessarily advocating for the return of pensions, but my own observations is that people who get them feel much more secure in retirement, rightly or wrongly.

I'm also a big fan of society putting $1,000 into a long-term deferred investment fund for every kid that's born. It's not a huge cost, and it confers huge long-term benefits to the kid.

There is really good white papers out there that have researched and surveyed thousands of retirees and those that have guaranteed income are much happier, and travel and recreate much more than those that don't. Even if the dollar equivalents are the same for those without lifetime income.

[Nirvana58]

Originally Posted by IowaHawkeyeChief

You are going to feel less connected to your job and company if you work remotely. It's just true. Some of my best memories are working with friends at a fortune 500 company right out of college. Great times and I worked hard for the company, as you should, because I agreed to the pay. Most employees prefer more pay in today's job hopping world than a defined benefit retirement/pension plan. This allows them to contribute to a 401k and that money is theirs. If a person saves appropriately, they would be able to purchase lifetime income at retirement that most likely would be similar to what a pension plan would be, but would have more flexibility to make those decisions. If pension plans were offered, the employer would have to pay less in salary, and this is not appealing to the current workforce. This isn't the big bad employer attacking workers. This is the employer's reaction to the current hiring marketplace.

People job hop more and feel less connected to their jobs for many reasons.

1. As previous mentioned. Pay is stagnant if you don't move positions. Employers like to start people low and give them 3-5% raises every year. Which does not keep up with the market. So if you don't move positions every 2 years you are losing potential income.

2. Employer loyalty. Younger generation has learned that lay offs are always around the corner. It is all about the profit margin or stock price. You're employer will lay you off the minute it looks good for their bottom line. Why do you need to feel some sort of obligation or loyalty to your employer when they will show you none.

3. New age thinking. My dad will work until he dies. He will never have enough for retirement. This guy has put in 60-80 hours a week his entire life. Started working when he was 15. I don't want to live to work. The pay off just isn't there and they keep moving back the retirement age. Saying social security will collapse before I even get there.

My first thought when I saw this article is good. People really should only be putting in 40 hours a week. Work hard in life but damn our time here is short. You need to have a life outside of work and enjoy it.

[BryanBusby]

Originally Posted by IowaHawkeyeChief

You are going to feel less connected to your job and company if you work remotely. It's just true.

I don't know if I would make a definite statement on that as I think it comes down to company culture more than remote or on site. I feel more connected with my current role now, where I am remote 99.9% of the time than I did vs the last on site role I held.

The team I was on for the on site role was treated like a bastard stepchild so didn't really care beyond the check and free ticket perk.

In this role there's more integration among the teams, across the board and they fly me in once a year for a brief on site visit. The other 362 days I am half way across the country.

The job in between was fully remote and everyone kept to themselves. It was terrible and I was glad to leave.

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by BryanBusby

I don't know if I would make a definite statement on that as I think it comes down to company culture more than remote or on site. I feel more connected with my current role now, where I am remote 99.9% of the time than I did vs the last on site role I held.

The team I was on for the on site role was treated like a bastard stepchild so didn't really care beyond the check and free ticket perk.

In this role there's more integration among the teams, across the board and they fly me in once a year for a brief on site visit. The other 362 days I am half way across the country.

The job in between was fully remote and everyone kept to themselves. It was terrible and I was glad to leave.

Originally Posted by DaFace

Probably depends on the company culture a bit. The job I had from 2021-2024 was fully remote (with occasional days in the office, but not much), and I felt very connected there. But we did a lot to foster that - multiple standup meetings a week, recurring 1:1s with team members to connect, a time every other week to collaborate and brainstorm on big-picture challenges. I'm still close friends with a few from my team.

And then we got a new Chief Product Officer who laid off my entire team despite our former CEO calling us one of the most impactful teams in the organization. So again, it's a little tough to feel motivated to work hard when a random shift in executive leadership can result in you getting booted out of nowhere.

I'd think simply experience, too... when I got into my current industry, being in the office didn't really connect me to the job, but I was basically an IT vendor and going out to vendor sites is what made it stick.

Working remotely now and even switching jobs doesn't change anything in terms of job connection.

I'd imagine that's similar for a lot of experienced people, too... you'll be connected more to the work regardless of where you work from.

I'd also guess it could be an issue for people who are newer to the work force, never personally meeting the people you work with or work for, etc.

[DaFace]

Originally Posted by IowaHawkeyeChief

You are going to feel less connected to your job and company if you work remotely. It's just true.

Probably depends on the company culture a bit. The job I had from 2021-2024 was fully remote (with occasional days in the office, but not much), and I felt very connected there. But we did a lot to foster that - multiple standup meetings a week, recurring 1:1s with team members to connect, a time every other week to collaborate and brainstorm on big-picture challenges. I'm still close friends with a few from my team.

And then we got a new Chief Product Officer who laid off my entire team despite our former CEO calling us one of the most impactful teams in the organization. So again, it's a little tough to feel motivated to work hard when a random shift in executive leadership can result in you getting booted out of nowhere.