Chiefs Herm Is An Upgrade

10-14-2006, 01:33 AM

This is a quality article, IMO.

http://chiefs.scout.com/2/579155.html

kcxiv · 10-14-2006, 01:36 AM

only if Mighty Mike or Nuge wrote it. If so, i may go check it out. Then again, if one of them 2 wrote anything its a pay article. nm this.

10-14-2006, 01:37 AM

It's not from either of them. We have plenty of good writers in addition to Mike and Mike these days.

tk13 · 10-14-2006, 02:24 AM

I like Vermeil, and I like Herm, he was the guy I wanted us to hire, but I'm tired of hearing the comparisons to be honest. It's over, it was a different time, different coach, different players. We don't know what Dick Vermeil would've done with this team, and we don't know what Herm Edwards would've done with the last few teams.

Plus, I'm tired of hearing this crap about how Vermeil didn't want a "team". Go watch the 2003 highlights again, you'll find after one of the games... I believe it's Baltimore... you'll see the grand poobah himself, Carl Peterson, in the locker room, holding up a football... proclaiming how we now had a football "team". Now three years later, that's all been erased, Vermeil was the offensive dictator who propped up the offense and urinated in the defensive's players frosted flakes every morning. Carl was apparently lying. DV always had better defenses than offenses until he coached here. But apparently when he came to KC he just defied all logic and said "Screw all the values that got me to 2 Super Bowls, it's mad scientist time! Weee!" (insert AdamKC cartoon). I mean, at the end of the day he didn't get it done, but I get tired of the excuses and lack of responsiblity. Vermeil was the only one who showed any sense of responsibility, he knew he'd run his course and got out. No excuses, no stabbing Gun or G-Rob or anybody in the back, he just tipped his cap and went on his way. At least you can respect that. Instead we have coaches and fans and Bob Gretz's making excuses and trying to compare guys and all this other garbage.

10-14-2006, 02:29 AM

That's a fair response, tk. I think it's human nature to wonder what might have been and then scapegoat the last guy off the bus.

DV showed a lot of class in a lot of regards. I wish he'd have brought a Lombardi home but he didn't.

tk13 · 10-14-2006, 02:35 AM

I mean it works both ways. I don't think in a million years DV is as good of a defensive coach as Herm. That's why I wanted Herm, I thought he was the best defensive coach out there, and he's better at that than DV, and we needed that.

I just don't know if the arguments are valid, there are people sitting here defending Vermeil about things that probably aren't true... I think Herm will be more aggressive than people expect, I think he's learned some lessons from his first go around. He's more conservative but he's not quite Marty. And I think there were people here saying "Oh wow, we never would've won that Arizona game under DV", which is garbage. We had some bad road losses under DV, yes, but we had some good moments too, we had a great comeback in Green Bay, which was better than that Arizona win, Lambeau was a tough place to win. Or even last year... we went into Miami on zero notice, in the face of a hurricane, on a short week with no rest and little practice, and won in a place we NEVER win in. That's really tough. We were a tough football team on that day. But it all just kinda gets lost in a glaze, in both directions, and things become vague generalizations that weren't always quite true.

Wallcrawler · 10-14-2006, 03:27 AM

I dont know about that last comment, where his previous head coach, (Vermiel) told him that he would never break a 40 yard run in the NFL.

I just dont see Dick coming off with something like that. Dick's never been a negative guy towards any player. If he did in fact say that, chalk it up to old age and senility I guess.

As for Herm, I like the balanced team that he has fielded for Kansas City this year. The game isnt resting on one facet of the team. Yeah, its cool to see 35 points per game during the Vermiel era, but when youre losing games it doesnt really matter. I didnt like the trip back to 1995 in week 2 at Denver, but that seemed to be a one game thing and the offense is pretty aggressive over the past couple games, so I think the danger of returning to Martyball is minimal at this point.

I dont fault Vermiel for being an offensive coach, admittedly he didnt know defense so you know, if you cant swim, keep your ass out of the pool. What he should have had sense enough to do, however, is see that his coaches and some defensive players were not getting it done and replaced them. He took the overly loyal approach, and it cost this team dearly. The offense that the Chiefs fielded during Vermiel's tenure here was Championship caliber. If he just would have made a miniscule effort to do SOMETHING with the defensive staff or players, who knows how the situation would have ended up.

CupidStunt · 10-14-2006, 04:43 AM

No shit?

Vermeil sucked pole.

runnercyclist · 10-14-2006, 06:03 AM

Too bad he starts his career with the Roaf/Green thing.

I think I'm gonna like Herm in the long run.

I have hope for the future.

**HemiEd** · 10-14-2006, 06:33 AM

I don't like it at all. To say Dick Vermeil did not care about the Defense is pure bullshit IMO. Most of the draft picks during his five years were on defense. Dick cared about people period.

I like a lot of what Herm is doing, but what would he have done if he would have taken over the mess that Dick did? Dick pretty much had to throw out the baby with the bath water and rebuild. Herm inherited a good team, Dick did not.

Hammock Parties · 10-14-2006, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wallcrawler

I dont know about that last comment, where his previous head coach, (Vermiel) told him that he would never break a 40 yard run in the NFL.

It came from an ESPN article.

Wichita Lineman · 10-14-2006, 06:48 AM

I like everything TK has said on this subject. But here's the difference in my opinion. One coach took responsibility and one coach doesn't. One coach never said I,me,and the other says nothing else. Both are good coaches but one is a person you'd like to sit down to dinner with and listen to and the other one would wear your ears out.

Hammock Parties · 10-14-2006, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HemiEd

To say Dick Vermeil did not care about the Defense is pure bullshit IMO

I agree. The only thing I said was that he cared about the offense TOO MUCH. That's why he didn't do the sensible thing like dump Robinson and let Gunther choose his own coaching staff. He spent draft picks to upgrade the offensive talent through trades. Did we ever do that on defense until his last year when we were desperate for a cornerback? That was a Carl move anyway, IMO.

Gunther talked about creating a defensive culture in KC. Dick's entire culture was offense-oriented.

CupidStunt · 10-14-2006, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wichita Lineman

I like everything TK has said on this subject. But here's the difference in my opinion. One coach took responsibility and one coach doesn't. One coach never said I,me,and the other says nothing else. Both are good coaches but one is a person you'd like to sit down to dinner with and listen to and the other one would wear your ears out.

Who gives a fuck about how they entertain you at a meal?

One coach hasn't done dick in years (no pun or irony intended), the other at least has playoff wins under his belt this centruy.

**HemiEd** · 10-14-2006, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoChiefs

I agree. The only thing I said was that he cared about the offense TOO MUCH. That's why he didn't do the sensible thing like dump Robinson and let Gunther choose his own coaching staff. He spent draft picks to upgrade the offensive talent through trades. Did we ever do that on defense until his last year when we were desperate for a cornerback? That was a Carl move anyway, IMO.

Gunther talked about creating a defensive culture in KC. Dick's entire culture was offense-oriented.

IMO Dick's biggest mistake, he carried loyalty to the extreme. It was needed the first couple of years to get the team moving in the right direction and create unity. It was the only way to truly evaluate the talent of the players and coaches.

However, once it was obvious that changes should have been made, he did not make them quick enough. He empowered his assistant coaches to much and did not kick personel to the curb that should have been.

I must admit, some of changes Herm is making are refreshing and timely.
I look at both coaches as a "set." Their efforts are dovetailing nicely.

10-14-2006, 01:33 AM
Phobia Guest Casino cash: $	Herm Is An Upgrade This is a quality article, IMO. http://chiefs.scout.com/2/579155.html
Posts: n/a

10-14-2006, 01:36 AM	#2
kcxiv In Search of a Life Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Central Valley, Cali Casino cash: $8697996	only if Mighty Mike or Nuge wrote it. If so, i may go check it out. Then again, if one of them 2 wrote anything its a pay article. nm this.
Posts: 29,111

10-14-2006, 01:37 AM	#3
Phobia Guest Casino cash: $	It's not from either of them. We have plenty of good writers in addition to Mike and Mike these days.
Posts: n/a

10-14-2006, 02:24 AM	#4
tk13 ... Join Date: Nov 2001 Casino cash: $-1837500	I like Vermeil, and I like Herm, he was the guy I wanted us to hire, but I'm tired of hearing the comparisons to be honest. It's over, it was a different time, different coach, different players. We don't know what Dick Vermeil would've done with this team, and we don't know what Herm Edwards would've done with the last few teams. Plus, I'm tired of hearing this crap about how Vermeil didn't want a "team". Go watch the 2003 highlights again, you'll find after one of the games... I believe it's Baltimore... you'll see the grand poobah himself, Carl Peterson, in the locker room, holding up a football... proclaiming how we now had a football "team". Now three years later, that's all been erased, Vermeil was the offensive dictator who propped up the offense and urinated in the defensive's players frosted flakes every morning. Carl was apparently lying. DV always had better defenses than offenses until he coached here. But apparently when he came to KC he just defied all logic and said "Screw all the values that got me to 2 Super Bowls, it's mad scientist time! Weee!" (insert AdamKC cartoon). I mean, at the end of the day he didn't get it done, but I get tired of the excuses and lack of responsiblity. Vermeil was the only one who showed any sense of responsibility, he knew he'd run his course and got out. No excuses, no stabbing Gun or G-Rob or anybody in the back, he just tipped his cap and went on his way. At least you can respect that. Instead we have coaches and fans and Bob Gretz's making excuses and trying to compare guys and all this other garbage.
Posts: 56,683

10-14-2006, 02:29 AM	#5
Phobia Guest Casino cash: $	That's a fair response, tk. I think it's human nature to wonder what might have been and then scapegoat the last guy off the bus. DV showed a lot of class in a lot of regards. I wish he'd have brought a Lombardi home but he didn't.
Posts: n/a

10-14-2006, 02:35 AM	#6
tk13 ... Join Date: Nov 2001 Casino cash: $-1837500	I mean it works both ways. I don't think in a million years DV is as good of a defensive coach as Herm. That's why I wanted Herm, I thought he was the best defensive coach out there, and he's better at that than DV, and we needed that. I just don't know if the arguments are valid, there are people sitting here defending Vermeil about things that probably aren't true... I think Herm will be more aggressive than people expect, I think he's learned some lessons from his first go around. He's more conservative but he's not quite Marty. And I think there were people here saying "Oh wow, we never would've won that Arizona game under DV", which is garbage. We had some bad road losses under DV, yes, but we had some good moments too, we had a great comeback in Green Bay, which was better than that Arizona win, Lambeau was a tough place to win. Or even last year... we went into Miami on zero notice, in the face of a hurricane, on a short week with no rest and little practice, and won in a place we NEVER win in. That's really tough. We were a tough football team on that day. But it all just kinda gets lost in a glaze, in both directions, and things become vague generalizations that weren't always quite true.
Posts: 56,683

10-14-2006, 04:43 AM	#8
CupidStunt offense > defense Join Date: Jul 2005 Casino cash: $-716668	No shit? Vermeil sucked pole.
Posts: 9,016

10-14-2006, 06:03 AM	#9
runnercyclist Gone to Carolina Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: By lake Wylie in tega cay Casino cash: $10006038	Too bad he starts his career with the Roaf/Green thing. I think I'm gonna like Herm in the long run. I have hope for the future.
Posts: 2,759

10-14-2006, 06:33 AM	#10
HemiEd Supporter Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ozarks Casino cash: $-449436	I don't like it at all. To say Dick Vermeil did not care about the Defense is pure bullshit IMO. Most of the draft picks during his five years were on defense. Dick cared about people period. I like a lot of what Herm is doing, but what would he have done if he would have taken over the mess that Dick did? Dick pretty much had to throw out the baby with the bath water and rebuild. Herm inherited a good team, Dick did not.
Posts: 34,860

10-14-2006, 06:48 AM	#12
Wichita Lineman Starter Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wichita Kansas Casino cash: $10004900	I like everything TK has said on this subject. But here's the difference in my opinion. One coach took responsibility and one coach doesn't. One coach never said I,me,and the other says nothing else. Both are good coaches but one is a person you'd like to sit down to dinner with and listen to and the other one would wear your ears out.
Posts: 90