Chiefs A few Chiefs' draft questions - Page 5

chiefzilla1501 · 11-01-2009, 10:15 AM

-I just realized that one major mistake people are making is assuming that the Chiefs are going to have a top 5 pick. I think it's very possible that Tampa, St. Louis, Cleveland, and Tennessee could pick higher than us. If that's the case, Berry and Suh are taken off the board. Is Cody a bad pick in this case? I actually think he'd be a great pick if those guys are off the board.
-If the Chiefs end up at #5 or #6, do you entertain a trade down? I think the Chiefs could trade down and still get Mays or Cody. And these two draft slots are attractive enough to trade out of
-If Berry and Suh are off the board, is there a player that teams would actually trade up for? I don't want Bradford at all, but is he a player teams would trade up for? What about Dunlap out of Florida?
-If Jimmy Claussen declares (which I don't think he will), is he worth the pick? My opinion--I would even trade up and take him. I think this kid is going to be the best QB prospect in years.
-If Jake Locker declares, is he worth a look? He looks like he'll be a real good QB, but I can't help but think he's going to be Brady Quinn or maybe a less mobile, slightly more accurate version of Cassel

**cdcox** · 11-01-2009, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain Man

I'd like to see us get Suh, and then sign Ray Lewis, me, Brett Favre, Chris Long, and Terrell Owens as free agents, so with Dorsey we could have Dor, Ray, me, Fahv-re, Suh, Long, T.O.

Some people are operating on a whole different level than the rest of us. Well done.

chiefzilla1501 · 11-01-2009, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman

My point is that, unless Tyson Jackson is getting 8-9 sacks a year and an absolute monster in run defense, there is no way a 5 tech DE is as impactful as a WR that can open up things in the running game and the short passing game.

Richard Seymour may well be the best 5 tech we've seen, but there's no way he was as valuable as Marvin Harrison was to the Colts.

I don't agree. Look at what 3-4 defenses do in terms of who they protect and who they're willing to let go. You rarely ever see a 3-4 defense ship out a productive D-lineman. Yet, you see a constant revolving carousel of CBs and ILBs. Usually a lot of movement at free safety. And as we've seen in Baltimore and New England, they had a revolving carousel of Outside Rush LBs too. Isn't it interesting that the Chargers shipped out two of their key defensive linemen, and their defense went from powerful to completely flat in one offseason.

And again, you're confusing Marvin Harrison, a terrific overall WR to Jeremy Maclin, a guy that we've been talking about as a pure deep threat. Like I said, if you've got a fast receiver like Steve Smith who can make catches all across the field, then that's a guy you can take at #3. But if we're talking about a Ted Ginn type that's going to play primarily in the slot as your #3 WR, then he better be Wes Welker good. And Maclin isn't going to be remotely as good as Welker.

Stats are grossly overrated. But if we're talking stats, a good 5-technique will rack up a good 70-80 tackles a year and a lot of that is in run defense. A deep threat may open up the short passing game and maybe the running game, but ever think of the opportunities a DE opens up? A great 3-4 D-line will stuff the run. That means your back 7 can focus on stopping the pass instead of cheating up to stop the run. It means you eliminate big cutback lanes on the run game, so your safeties can focus exclusively on the pass. It means you can be a lot more aggressive in your blitz packages. And just as a left tackle gives your QB/WRs time to make plays, a Defensive line opens lanes up for your rush backers to make plays.

**DaneMcCloud** · 11-01-2009, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

If we're talking about Calvin Johnson or Braylon Edwards, then I see your point. But Crabtree was the only guy in the draft with that kind of positional value, and I am glad the Chiefs didn't take a flyer on him.

You're "glad"?

Just how ****ing reeruned are you?

I know, I know. It would totally suck to have Cassel throwing to Crabtree & Bowe.

My bad.

**DaneMcCloud** · 11-01-2009, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Stats are grossly overrated. But if we're talking stats, a good 5-technique will rack up a good 70-80 tackles a year

What?

Ty Warren's a "good" 3-4 end and he averages 54 tackles a year.

You're smokin' crack.

chiefs1111 · 11-01-2009, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

How about another 5 technique that is rated as a mid-late round pick?

if they do that,im going to have buy a new TV

chiefzilla1501 · 11-01-2009, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

You're "glad"?

Just how ****ing reeruned are you?

I know, I know. It would totally suck to have Cassel throwing to Crabtree & Bowe.

My bad.

I am not sold on Crabtree. I don't think he's going to be worth a top 3 pick. He didn't come with nearly the resume as say a Calvin Johnson or a Braylon Edwards.

**DaneMcCloud** · 11-01-2009, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

I am not sold on Crabtree. I don't think he's going to be worth a top 3 pick. He didn't come with nearly the resume as say a Calvin Johnson or a Braylon Edwards.

Really?

Then you're just plain ****ing stupid.

The guy didn't go through training camp.

The guy's had two weeks of practice.

And guess what?

Crabtree has 11 catches in two games for 137 yards in TWO GAMES. He's averaging 12.5 yards per catch .

Dwayne Bowe has 23 catches in 7 GAMES.

Urine idiot.

chiefzilla1501 · 11-01-2009, 04:18 PM

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/column...ael&id=1946758
Originally Published: December 15, 2004
Defensive linemen do the dirty work in 3-4
If stats are your thing, then playing defensive line in a 3-4 probably isn't for you.
Email Print Share
Smith By Michael Smith
ESPN.com
Archive

No man is an island, but when you're Julius Peppers, a defensive end with the athleticism to suck up tailbacks from 70 yards away and to line up at receiver in the red zone, you want to be on one as often as possible, pursuing the quarterback from the most advantageous position.

Peppers is at his best when he's rushing from the edge, wide of the tackle or over a tight end, in what's known as the "7" technique. Peppers (6 feet, 6 inches and 290 pounds) has ideal size to play on the interior, and for a brief period during the first month of the season, Carolina, looking to take advantage of their linebacker depth, experimented with using Peppers inside, over the tackle in the "5" technique, at end in their 3-4 package. Make that misusing him.

A former "4" (power forward) for The University of North Carolina hoops team, Peppers learned that battling inside on the gridiron is a whole different ballgame. His production slipped in those and he looked, according to one pro scout, hesitant.

"I really don't like being down inside," said Peppers, who, at home on the edge, has posted eight of his 10 sacks this season in the past six games. "I feel like when I'm down in that area like a tackle, I don't feel like I'm being used properly. It's hard, because you have to be a lot more run conscious and a lot more physical, which, being physical, that's no problem for me. But I'd rather get on the edge and rush the passer."

Wouldn't they all. Look at it this way, Julius: At least your 3-4 days are over. There are linemen in Baltimore, Houston, New England, Oakland, Pittsburgh, San Diego stuck doing the defense's dirtiest jobs week in and week out.

The primary defensive front for the aforementioned six franchises is the 3-4, which includes three defensive linemen -- a nose tackle lined up over center flanked by ends over each tackle -- and four linebackers, two inside and two outside. Majority rules in this scheme, which several other teams also have in their personnel package. It's designed to feature the 'backers. They're the stars, while the linemen's primary responsibility is to help the 'backers look their best by keeping offensive linemen occupied. Their contributions can't necessarily be measured by individual statistics. At least, not their individual statistics.

Think of the big boys up front as production assistants. They get about the same amount of recognition, too. Very little.

"It's not that hard," said Patriots nose tackle Keith Traylor, who had limited experience in the 3-4 before this season, "it's just boring. It's not a lot of fun."

Indeed, for 3-4 linemen, the action in the playmaking department rarely is fast and furious. All 3-4 teams use some style of the "two-gap" technique, which calls for the nose tackle to fill the "A" gaps on either side of the center and for the ends to take care of the "B" and "C" gaps between the guards and tackles and outside the tackle, respectively. The idea is to fill both gaps and delay, if not prevent, blockers from reaching the second level, thereby creating open lanes to the football for the inside linebackers.

Pittsburgh's linemen do lots of stunting (looping) and penetrating, forcing the ballcarrier to commit to a hole. The Patriots linemen, on the other hand, are asked to simply hold their positions and tie up blockers. In general, linemen in the 3-4 often aren't in the best position to make tackles, hence their typically low totals. And since they aren't shooting through gaps like 4-3 linemen, they don't make very many stops behind the line of scrimmage, either. That's particularly true for the nose tackles, who deal with more of a variety of double teams than their 4-3 counterparts, who are already aligned in gaps.

Richard Seymour
Richard Seymour is considered one of the NFL's best defensive linemen.
Sacks are a bonus for pocket-pushing nose tackles, like an onion ring in your French fries; Baltimore's Kelly Gregg, maybe the best nose in the game along with Pittsburgh's Casey Hampton, has 1½. Ends in the 3-4 tend to collect a few more, but they are inhibited by their responsibilities versus the run and don't put up the same kind of numbers as 4-3 ends.

Before an end can get after the quarterback, he has to first make certain a draw isn't coming through the "B" gap (between the guard and tackle). The end also has bootleg duty. If there's run action inside, the ends first reaction should be to hit the "B" gap, and if nothing's coming, hustle back outside to contain the quarterback.

"The responsibility of a 3-4 end is 10 times harder than the responsibility of a 4-3 end," said Pittsburgh end Kimo von Oelhoffen. "You're on the edge (in the 4-3). You've got great angles for stopping the run, and great angles for rushing the quarterback. That's why those guys get sacks."

All of which makes Steeler Aaron Smith's eight sacks all the more impressive (Patriots DE Richard Seymour had eight last season). Smith's eight sacks tie him for 15th in the league. Next among 3-4 defensive linemen is Baltimore's Marques Douglas, who has 5½, tied for 38th in the league.

“ It's not designed for you to make the plays. It's designed for the linebackers. That's why it's a 3-4. You've really got to do a good job to get yourself into it, but you're creating for other people. ”
— Richard Seymour, Patriots DE

Smith and Seymour are considered the league's top 3-4 ends because they're strong against the run and the pass. Seymour has made the last two Pro Bowls. Long (6-6, 310) and athletic, he's considered the prototype for the position the way 365-pound Ted Washington was for the nose. People in Pittsburgh are lobbying for Smith to be the team's first Pro Bowl end since L.C. Greenwood after the '79 season.

One number says it all about the difference between playing defensive tackle in a 4-3 and end in a 3-4, similar positions in terms of physical stature. The number is one. That's Warren Sapp's sack total this season.

"It takes a special cat to really play within the structure of the defense and be unselfish and all the things that come with it," said Ravens defensive line coach Rex Ryan, who's brother, Rob, coordinates Oakland's defense. "Warren Sapp's one of the best 4-3 tackles of all time. You'd think he'd be able to do it (convert to end), but, and I don't get to see their games, but something's not happening over there."

"It's not designed for you to make the plays," said Seymour, who has four sacks this year. "It's designed for the linebackers. That's why it's a 3-4. You've really got to do a good job to get yourself into it, but you're creating for other people."

If stats are your thing, and you're looking to others to define your value to your defense, then the 3-4 isn't for you.

"You have to be an unselfish player," Ryan said. "If you're playing like you're in an Indianapolis scheme and getting up the field and all that, you would not be able to stop a run to save anything. Those (3-4) guys have gotta two gap. They've got to do all the dirty work."

Michael Smith is a senior writer for ESPN.com.

**DaneMcCloud** · 11-01-2009, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/column...ael&id=1946758
Originally Published: December 15, 2004

Michael Smith is a senior writer for ESPN.com.

Who gives a ****?

**DaneMcCloud** · 11-01-2009, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Stats are grossly overrated. But if we're talking stats, a good 5-technique will rack up a good 70-80 tackles a year

I have no idea where you got this idea but Richard Seymour has averaged only 44 tackles (that includes assists) in 8 years in the NFL.

chiefzilla1501 · 11-01-2009, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Who gives a ****?

If you actually took the time to read, which you didn't, you'll find it's a very interesting read for this discussion.

**The Bad Guy** · 11-01-2009, 04:25 PM

Just looking through this thread makes me happy I have Chiefzilla on ignore. Crabtree not worth a 3rd pick, but Braylon Edwards is? Hilarious.

chiefzilla1501 · 11-01-2009, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

I have no idea where you got this idea but Richard Seymour has averaged only 44 tackles (that includes assists) in 8 years in the NFL.

No, I'm wrong on that. I could have sworn I've seen 70-80. My bad.

chiefzilla1501 · 11-01-2009, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bad Guy

Just looking through this thread makes me happy I have Chiefzilla on ignore. Crabtree not worth a 3rd pick, but Braylon Edwards is? Hilarious.

Hindsight is 20/20.

Braylon Edwards was a consensus top 5 pick. He hasn't lived up to the top 5 pick, but at the time, any team would have been CRAZY to pass on him based on what they knew then. There were 9 teams that obviously didn't think Crabtree was a top 3 pick. We'll see. Two games is far too soon to judge Crabtree. I haven't followed him to date, but there were a gajillion people on this forum that said no, no, no to Crabtree last year. There were a lot more people that disliked Crabtree on this forum than those who liked him.

Hootie · 11-01-2009, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Well, here's the thing:

I had the Chiefs in the CP mock after the Chiefs drafted Cassel. Given the strength of the board, my lack of confidence in Cassel, and my belief in Sanchez, I took Sanchez with the belief that I could either trade Cassel to a team that wanted him for more than I paid for him (like Denver, as the Cutler trade hadn't happened yet, or Minnesota pre-Favre and Rosenfels).

I was pilloried for it.

I also thought that taking Raji (given the fact that he can play NT) or a guy like Maclin would be far better than Jackson, and I said such. I thought Malcolm Jenkins was an option until his awful 40 time.

you also took Vernon Gholston over Matt Ryan on a team that is an elite QB away from being Super Bowl contenders...

11-01-2009, 10:15 AM
chiefzilla1501 In Search of a Life Join Date: Aug 2008 Casino cash: $-1635503	A few Chiefs' draft questions -I just realized that one major mistake people are making is assuming that the Chiefs are going to have a top 5 pick. I think it's very possible that Tampa, St. Louis, Cleveland, and Tennessee could pick higher than us. If that's the case, Berry and Suh are taken off the board. Is Cody a bad pick in this case? I actually think he'd be a great pick if those guys are off the board. -If the Chiefs end up at #5 or #6, do you entertain a trade down? I think the Chiefs could trade down and still get Mays or Cody. And these two draft slots are attractive enough to trade out of -If Berry and Suh are off the board, is there a player that teams would actually trade up for? I don't want Bradford at all, but is he a player teams would trade up for? What about Dunlap out of Florida? -If Jimmy Claussen declares (which I don't think he will), is he worth the pick? My opinion--I would even trade up and take him. I think this kid is going to be the best QB prospect in years. -If Jake Locker declares, is he worth a look? He looks like he'll be a real good QB, but I can't help but think he's going to be Brady Quinn or maybe a less mobile, slightly more accurate version of Cassel
Posts: 51,599

11-01-2009, 04:18 PM	#68
chiefzilla1501 In Search of a Life Join Date: Aug 2008 Casino cash: $-1635503	http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/column...ael&id=1946758 Originally Published: December 15, 2004 Defensive linemen do the dirty work in 3-4 If stats are your thing, then playing defensive line in a 3-4 probably isn't for you. Email Print Share Smith By Michael Smith ESPN.com Archive No man is an island, but when you're Julius Peppers, a defensive end with the athleticism to suck up tailbacks from 70 yards away and to line up at receiver in the red zone, you want to be on one as often as possible, pursuing the quarterback from the most advantageous position. Peppers is at his best when he's rushing from the edge, wide of the tackle or over a tight end, in what's known as the "7" technique. Peppers (6 feet, 6 inches and 290 pounds) has ideal size to play on the interior, and for a brief period during the first month of the season, Carolina, looking to take advantage of their linebacker depth, experimented with using Peppers inside, over the tackle in the "5" technique, at end in their 3-4 package. Make that misusing him. A former "4" (power forward) for The University of North Carolina hoops team, Peppers learned that battling inside on the gridiron is a whole different ballgame. His production slipped in those and he looked, according to one pro scout, hesitant. "I really don't like being down inside," said Peppers, who, at home on the edge, has posted eight of his 10 sacks this season in the past six games. "I feel like when I'm down in that area like a tackle, I don't feel like I'm being used properly. It's hard, because you have to be a lot more run conscious and a lot more physical, which, being physical, that's no problem for me. But I'd rather get on the edge and rush the passer." Wouldn't they all. Look at it this way, Julius: At least your 3-4 days are over. There are linemen in Baltimore, Houston, New England, Oakland, Pittsburgh, San Diego stuck doing the defense's dirtiest jobs week in and week out. The primary defensive front for the aforementioned six franchises is the 3-4, which includes three defensive linemen -- a nose tackle lined up over center flanked by ends over each tackle -- and four linebackers, two inside and two outside. Majority rules in this scheme, which several other teams also have in their personnel package. It's designed to feature the 'backers. They're the stars, while the linemen's primary responsibility is to help the 'backers look their best by keeping offensive linemen occupied. Their contributions can't necessarily be measured by individual statistics. At least, not their individual statistics. Think of the big boys up front as production assistants. They get about the same amount of recognition, too. Very little. "It's not that hard," said Patriots nose tackle Keith Traylor, who had limited experience in the 3-4 before this season, "it's just boring. It's not a lot of fun." Indeed, for 3-4 linemen, the action in the playmaking department rarely is fast and furious. All 3-4 teams use some style of the "two-gap" technique, which calls for the nose tackle to fill the "A" gaps on either side of the center and for the ends to take care of the "B" and "C" gaps between the guards and tackles and outside the tackle, respectively. The idea is to fill both gaps and delay, if not prevent, blockers from reaching the second level, thereby creating open lanes to the football for the inside linebackers. Pittsburgh's linemen do lots of stunting (looping) and penetrating, forcing the ballcarrier to commit to a hole. The Patriots linemen, on the other hand, are asked to simply hold their positions and tie up blockers. In general, linemen in the 3-4 often aren't in the best position to make tackles, hence their typically low totals. And since they aren't shooting through gaps like 4-3 linemen, they don't make very many stops behind the line of scrimmage, either. That's particularly true for the nose tackles, who deal with more of a variety of double teams than their 4-3 counterparts, who are already aligned in gaps. Richard Seymour Richard Seymour is considered one of the NFL's best defensive linemen. Sacks are a bonus for pocket-pushing nose tackles, like an onion ring in your French fries; Baltimore's Kelly Gregg, maybe the best nose in the game along with Pittsburgh's Casey Hampton, has 1½. Ends in the 3-4 tend to collect a few more, but they are inhibited by their responsibilities versus the run and don't put up the same kind of numbers as 4-3 ends. Before an end can get after the quarterback, he has to first make certain a draw isn't coming through the "B" gap (between the guard and tackle). The end also has bootleg duty. If there's run action inside, the ends first reaction should be to hit the "B" gap, and if nothing's coming, hustle back outside to contain the quarterback. "The responsibility of a 3-4 end is 10 times harder than the responsibility of a 4-3 end," said Pittsburgh end Kimo von Oelhoffen. "You're on the edge (in the 4-3). You've got great angles for stopping the run, and great angles for rushing the quarterback. That's why those guys get sacks." All of which makes Steeler Aaron Smith's eight sacks all the more impressive (Patriots DE Richard Seymour had eight last season). Smith's eight sacks tie him for 15th in the league. Next among 3-4 defensive linemen is Baltimore's Marques Douglas, who has 5½, tied for 38th in the league. “ It's not designed for you to make the plays. It's designed for the linebackers. That's why it's a 3-4. You've really got to do a good job to get yourself into it, but you're creating for other people. ” — Richard Seymour, Patriots DE Smith and Seymour are considered the league's top 3-4 ends because they're strong against the run and the pass. Seymour has made the last two Pro Bowls. Long (6-6, 310) and athletic, he's considered the prototype for the position the way 365-pound Ted Washington was for the nose. People in Pittsburgh are lobbying for Smith to be the team's first Pro Bowl end since L.C. Greenwood after the '79 season. One number says it all about the difference between playing defensive tackle in a 4-3 and end in a 3-4, similar positions in terms of physical stature. The number is one. That's Warren Sapp's sack total this season. "It takes a special cat to really play within the structure of the defense and be unselfish and all the things that come with it," said Ravens defensive line coach Rex Ryan, who's brother, Rob, coordinates Oakland's defense. "Warren Sapp's one of the best 4-3 tackles of all time. You'd think he'd be able to do it (convert to end), but, and I don't get to see their games, but something's not happening over there." "It's not designed for you to make the plays," said Seymour, who has four sacks this year. "It's designed for the linebackers. That's why it's a 3-4. You've really got to do a good job to get yourself into it, but you're creating for other people." If stats are your thing, and you're looking to others to define your value to your defense, then the 3-4 isn't for you. "You have to be an unselfish player," Ryan said. "If you're playing like you're in an Indianapolis scheme and getting up the field and all that, you would not be able to stop a run to save anything. Those (3-4) guys have gotta two gap. They've got to do all the dirty work." Michael Smith is a senior writer for ESPN.com.
Posts: 51,599

11-01-2009, 04:25 PM	#72
The Bad Guy Scott Pioli Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: The Copacobana Casino cash: $9283645	Just looking through this thread makes me happy I have Chiefzilla on ignore. Crabtree not worth a 3rd pick, but Braylon Edwards is? Hilarious. __________________
Posts: 23,216