Chiefs The myth of Pioli - Page 4

B_Ambuehl · 12-07-2009, 01:12 PM

LOL I wonder if he's sharing that loaded contract he got from Clark with Bellichik.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/c...148&position=0

This time it’s personnel
Building to collapse
By Ron Borges
Monday, December 7, 2009 - Updated 4m ago
+ Recent Articles

MIAMI - Slowly but inexorably they are dissolving in front of our eyes. It is a process that didn’t begin this year for the New England Patriots [team stats] but way back in 2004, when nobody was paying attention to much else but the lifting of another Super Bowl banner.

That season they won their third Super Bowl in four seasons but also began a widely ignored decline that manifested itself emphatically the past month and came to a sad head yesterday at Land Shark Stadium when they lost for the third time in four weeks, blowing a 14-0 lead to be beaten at the buzzer by the Miami Dolphins [team stats], 22-21.

Five years ago, the Patriots draft garnered two starters, both on the first round. Not another player drafted in April of 2004 is still in uniform. That fallowness continued in 2005 when they again picked only two current starters. In 2006, they got only one, running back Laurence Maroney [stats], plus kicker Stephen Gostkowski. Then came the disaster of 2007, when only first-round pick Brandon Meriweather was good enough to still be in pro
football.

It is a bit early to know about 2008 but other than linebacker Jerod Mayo it again appears to be a sad lot. Second- and third-round picks Terrence Wheatley and Shawn Crable seldom see the field (Crable never has) and it is becoming increasingly more disastrous that cornerback Jonathan Wilhite sees so much of it. In those five years, the Patriots drafted 41 players and got eight starters, six on the first round. Otherwise they got what Bill Belichick kept saying was “value.” Yesterday, it didn’t look that way.

Free agency has produced similarly skimpy results. Early hits were made on Rodney Harrison [stats] and Mike Vrabel, but after that the cupboard has been bare. They paid $30 million to Adalius Thomas and promised he could cover Ocho Cinco and sack Peyton Manning. He’s done neither. Shawn Springs signed a three-year, $10.5 million deal last spring and hasn’t played a snap in a month, while poor Wilhite struggles out of position because he’s a nickel back asked to play corner and rookie Darius Butler goes out and proves that while he has potential he never saw receivers at UConn like the ones catching balls behind and in front of him now, as Greg Camarillo did on fourth-and-6 on the game’s most critical play yesterday.

While there were fruitful trades for Randy Moss and Wes Welker, they have netted big numbers but no championships, which is the same amount Moss’ teams have won since he first came into the NFL.

These facts led New Orleans Saints coach Sean Payton to tell his team before last Monday night’s game to be stout hearted and unafraid because “this isn’t the team that accomplished all that stuff.” Although his language was more colorful, his point was clear. These Patriots aren’t those Patriots.

“It’s not for lack of effort,” center Dan Koppen said not long after Dolphins kicker Dan Carpenter nailed a 41-yard field goal and Tom Brady [stats] responded by throwing his second interception of the day with :35 to play as Cameron Wake hammered him.

Koppen is right. The Patriots’ problems are not from lack of effort or lack of planning. They are from lack of talent. Not so lacking that they aren’t competitive, but lacking enough that most every game is a struggle now.

Today everyone will say, “They need a better pass rush.” From whom?

They will say, “They need better pass coverage.” From whom?

Some will say they need to run the ball more to take pressure off Brady and his ailing ring finger, sore shoulder and aching ribs. By whom?

Years ago, Chuck Fairbanks said it best. “It’s not about X’s and O’s. It’s about Jimmys and Joes.” For half a decade with the Pats people believed otherwise. In Bill We Trust became the motto, but does anyone honestly believe Bill Belichick forgot how to coach? A guy who has been watching game film since he was 6 now can’t break down film and discover a team’s weaknesses?

That’s not the problem. The problem is he can’t ask people to do what they are not capable of doing. Or, worse, he does and you end up with Sam Aiken, a guy brought here to replace Larry Izzo [stats] on special teams, as your third receiver making one great catch for a touchdown and dropping two key ones. Did he have a great game or a disastrous one? Probably both, which is A) not his fault because he’s playing a role he was never supposed to, and B) not something Belichick can change.

“We’ve got to find a way to play better football for 60 minutes in all phases,” Brady said. “Everyone has to focus on what they need to do better. I think that’s the most important thing. And be mentally tough to overcome adversity and if things don’t go your way, you’ve got to fight back. That’s a challenge for all of us. At times I think we do, and other times, I don’t think we fight very hard.”

The latter is a damning statement, but it’s also part of what separates the 2001 Pats from today’s. Remaining undaunted is a skill too and not everyone has it.

“We have leads in the second half, and leads in the fourth quarter,” Brady continued. “We’re just not closing the game out when we have the opportunity to. We’re searching for the answers, too.

“Coach always says, ‘You get what you deserve.’ In too many ways, you don’t deserve to win when you make as many mistakes as we do.”

That’s true whether you make them on the field or in the front office.

**DeezNutz** · 12-07-2009, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beach tribe

I agree also that Haley is the man for the job, but that Cassel may be shell shocked, and it's 50-50 whether he recovers or not.

Regarding Haley, based on what?

For Cassel, whose fault will that be?

**dirk digler** · 12-07-2009, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beach tribe

BB won 3 SBs with the rosters that they built.

BB shut down the Colts, Rams, and other high flying attacks, and coached the most dangerous offense in the history of football.
Pioli was the GM,and BB the coach when players such as Ty Law, Asante Samuel were acquired, along with Richard Seymore, and .. screw it, you know the names.

So far this season, the genius BB, has shown that his team is going to lose more games with Tom Terrific, at QB than it did with a Matt Cassel.

He's also shown that it's not his genius that won all those games. It was a special group of players who he, and Pioli, hand picked. If he was such a genius. He wouldn't be losing games, by constantly going for it on 4th, and he sure as hell wouldn't be getting his ass handed to him by Sean Payton.
Not to mention the fact that Tom Coughlin out coached him in one SB, and Mike Martz handed him another by not running the ball.
As far as all of you guys already giving up on a regime after one draft, and 12 games with one of the worst rosters in the league. I just have to laugh.
Is it very possible that they Fail? Ugh.... yeah, but they haven't failed yet morons. We won 2 games last year. We will probably win 4 this year. It's a start, and it as much as anyone could ask for considering the circumstances.
Nancies.

Post of the decade

Brock · 12-07-2009, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beach tribe

Everybody around here sucks A.J. Smith form S.D.'s balls, but he let Michael turner, and Drew Brees walk, and it probably cost them a SB or three. People make mistakes. Nobody's perfect. There is a lot of luck involved.

Regardless of what perceived mistakes Smith has made, his starting lineup is about 75 percent comprised of his draft picks over the past several years, if not more. That's not really luck.

beach tribe · 12-07-2009, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoChiefs

Hamas already addressed this.

The only thing people really wanted to see this year was PROGRESS.

And yet here we sit with just about the worst goddamn offense AND defense in the league again.

And you can argue this team is GETTING WORSE!!! We sure weren't losing 87-27 in back to back weeks during September and October.

This team IS getting better. We have had opportunities, and we just haven't been able to take advantage of them. Which is more that we can say for a Herm peterson team. That will come with time, and upgrades at a lot of positions. If we had a decent #2 WR , some linemen, and a badass power back, we would have had a huge momentum swing in this last game, and it would have looked a lot different. BUT Wade dropped the damn ball, Haley called a damn sweep, and you could see the life just sucking out of them. We need A LOT of players man. A LOT. Playmakers.
We need Krumrie gone, and we need a NT so bad that we will never be able to stop anyone without one. Wilfork?

Hammock Parties · 12-07-2009, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beach tribe

This team IS getting better. We have had opportunities, and we just haven't been able to take advantage of them. Which is more that we can say for a Herm peterson team.

Bullcrap.

That team last year lost how many games by a touchdown or less? They had opportunities, too.

It's the same shit in a different wrapper, except the last half of 08 the Chiefs were mediocre on offense.

beach tribe · 12-07-2009, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brock

Regardless of what perceived mistakes Smith has made, his team is about 75 percent comprised of his draft picks over the past several years, if not more. That's not really luck.

I agree. He's good. But he also is the sole reason that his team is NOT going to win the SB. Because Drew Brees, and the Burner would be unstoppable with the rest of that roster.
That was an unlucky break for him. And until he DOES have a SB, I don't care how many draft picks he has on his team. He's accomplished LESS in his career than Carl Peterson.

Titty Meat · 12-07-2009, 02:21 PM

So we're ready to say Pioli sucks? Ya'll are drama queens.

**DeezNutz** · 12-07-2009, 02:22 PM

The fact that he had Brees on his roster and STILL acquired Rivers should be a lesson to executives around the league.

Granted, Drew wasn't playing at his current insane level at the time, but he was still a solid player and FAR better than anything we've seen from our "franchise" player.

'Hamas' Jenkins · 12-07-2009, 02:23 PM

Let's look at the moves that he's made while he's actually been the one in charge:

The hire of Todd Haley: Not damnable, but not inspiring of confidence either

The trade for Cassel: Looks god awful, and not because of his lack of fantasy stats. He doesn't appear to have the native ability to succeed in his position.

The contract to Cassel: We already owned his rights for 2 years, and were massively under the cap. This to, me, is the most damning move he's yet made.

The hire of Clancy Pendergast: ****ing awful. Arizona has the same talent in place as last year and is demonstrably better. Meanwhile, the Chiefs added their first three draft picks to the D and it's arguably just as bad (if not worse) than last year's D. At least we had ****ing injuries last year.

The trade of Gonzalez: His best move. It was a forward looking move that brings us quick help for a player at the end of his career.

The signing of Zach Thomas: FAIL
Bobby Engram: FAIL
Bobby Wade: FAIL
Amani Toomer: FAIL
Monty Beisel: FAIL
Mike Brown: FAIL

Cutting Pollard: FAIL

Trading a draft pick for Alleman and Eat Dookie: FAIL

Addressing the OL through draft and FA: FAIL. It wasn't an OL-empty draft, either, nor was Ryan O'Callaghan the only RT available after September cuts.

Bringing in Vrabel along w/ Cassel to establish veteran leadership: Nothing shows leadership like a 34 year old player flipping off the opposing sideline because he's experiencing multiple blowout losses for the first time in his career.

Drafting a 5 Technique at 3 overall b/c you've painted yourself into a corner: FAIL

Sean Ryan: FAIL

Thigpen trade: Great move.

Signing of Chris Chambers: Great move.

I should be optimistic, huh?

keg in kc · 12-07-2009, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoChiefs

Hamas already addressed this.

The only thing people really wanted to see this year was PROGRESS.

And yet here we sit with just about the worst goddamn offense AND defense in the league again.

And you can argue this team is GETTING WORSE!!! We sure weren't losing 87-27 in back to back weeks during September and October.

Progress won't come until the roster is overhauled. People were asking for a miracle if they expected this roster take any steps forward during the season. There's a reason street free agents come in here and start the week they get a contract. This is a bad, bad team, and no amount of smoke and mirrors is going to change that fact. Talent wins games. Period. No matter how much you polish a turd, it's still a turd. Which is why most realistic people, in and out of town, expected a maximum of 5 wins in 2009.

It's fine to hate losing and to get upset when it happens. Yesterday sucked. End of story. But burying the front office now? Too soon.

'course most of the people doing it started months ago.

If the 2010 or 2011 Chiefs look like this, if next offseason doesn't look any different than last, then I'll worry.

**DeezNutz** · 12-07-2009, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

I should be optimistic, huh?

Unlucky. Sometimes things don't work out.

Sweet Daddy Hate · 12-07-2009, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Here's the problem:

If Belichick was the one making all the decisions, then Pioli didn't deserve the job b/c he wasn't the pro personnel genius he'd been lauded to be.

If Pioli was making decisions along with Belichick, he didn't deserve the job b/c he's done an awful job of evaluating talent

However, I'm sure that many will say it's C): All the good picks are on Pioli and the bad ones are on Belichick...or Carl...or the Jews.

Quote:

Originally Posted by beach tribe

This team IS getting better. We have had opportunities, and we just haven't been able to take advantage of them. Which is more that we can say for a Herm peterson team. That will come with time, and upgrades at a lot of positions. If we had a decent #2 WR , some linemen, and a badass power back, we would have had a huge momentum swing in this last game, and it would have looked a lot different. BUT Wade dropped the damn ball, Haley called a damn sweep, and you could see the life just sucking out of them. We need A LOT of players man. A LOT. Playmakers.
We need Krumrie gone, and we need a NT so bad that we will never be able to stop anyone without one. Wilfork?

Individuals are getting better.

The team? Not so much.

Titty Meat · 12-07-2009, 02:26 PM

I'm not telling you what you should be, I just find it funny how the "Cassel sucks" threads disappear when they beat Pittsburgh and everyone praises him. Its 1 year the team has a chance to double it's win total from last year. New Englands first year with Belicheck they went 5-11.

**DeezNutz** · 12-07-2009, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keg in kc

Progress won't come until the roster is overhauled. People were asking for a miracle if they expected this roster take any steps forward during the season. There's a reason street free agents come in here and start the week they get a contract. This is a bad, bad team, and no amount of smoke and mirrors is going to change that fact. Talent wins games. Period. No matter how much you polish a turd, it's still a turd. Which is why most realistic people, in and out of town, expected a maximum of 5 wins in 2009.

It's fine to hate losing and to get upset when it happens. Yesterday sucked. End of story. But burying the front office now. Too soon.

'course most of the people doing it started months ago.

Yes, maybe being more active in FA and playing to the strengths of the draft class would have obviated the need for trying to sift through the current list of garbage players who are available.

Brock · 12-07-2009, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beach tribe

I agree. He's good. But he also is the sole reason that his team is NOT going to win the SB. Because Drew Brees, and the Burner would be unstoppable with the rest of that roster.
That was an unlucky break for him. And until he DOES have a SB, I don't care how many draft picks he has on his team. He's accomplished LESS in his career than Carl Peterson.

How so? His team has won as many playoff games in the past 3 years as Carl's did in 20.

12-07-2009, 01:12 PM
B_Ambuehl Veteran Join Date: Apr 2005 Casino cash: $9705405	The myth of Pioli LOL I wonder if he's sharing that loaded contract he got from Clark with Bellichik. http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/c...148&position=0 This time it’s personnel Building to collapse By Ron Borges Monday, December 7, 2009 - Updated 4m ago + Recent Articles MIAMI - Slowly but inexorably they are dissolving in front of our eyes. It is a process that didn’t begin this year for the New England Patriots [team stats] but way back in 2004, when nobody was paying attention to much else but the lifting of another Super Bowl banner. That season they won their third Super Bowl in four seasons but also began a widely ignored decline that manifested itself emphatically the past month and came to a sad head yesterday at Land Shark Stadium when they lost for the third time in four weeks, blowing a 14-0 lead to be beaten at the buzzer by the Miami Dolphins [team stats], 22-21. Five years ago, the Patriots draft garnered two starters, both on the first round. Not another player drafted in April of 2004 is still in uniform. That fallowness continued in 2005 when they again picked only two current starters. In 2006, they got only one, running back Laurence Maroney [stats], plus kicker Stephen Gostkowski. Then came the disaster of 2007, when only first-round pick Brandon Meriweather was good enough to still be in pro football. It is a bit early to know about 2008 but other than linebacker Jerod Mayo it again appears to be a sad lot. Second- and third-round picks Terrence Wheatley and Shawn Crable seldom see the field (Crable never has) and it is becoming increasingly more disastrous that cornerback Jonathan Wilhite sees so much of it. In those five years, the Patriots drafted 41 players and got eight starters, six on the first round. Otherwise they got what Bill Belichick kept saying was “value.” Yesterday, it didn’t look that way. Free agency has produced similarly skimpy results. Early hits were made on Rodney Harrison [stats] and Mike Vrabel, but after that the cupboard has been bare. They paid $30 million to Adalius Thomas and promised he could cover Ocho Cinco and sack Peyton Manning. He’s done neither. Shawn Springs signed a three-year, $10.5 million deal last spring and hasn’t played a snap in a month, while poor Wilhite struggles out of position because he’s a nickel back asked to play corner and rookie Darius Butler goes out and proves that while he has potential he never saw receivers at UConn like the ones catching balls behind and in front of him now, as Greg Camarillo did on fourth-and-6 on the game’s most critical play yesterday. While there were fruitful trades for Randy Moss and Wes Welker, they have netted big numbers but no championships, which is the same amount Moss’ teams have won since he first came into the NFL. These facts led New Orleans Saints coach Sean Payton to tell his team before last Monday night’s game to be stout hearted and unafraid because “this isn’t the team that accomplished all that stuff.” Although his language was more colorful, his point was clear. These Patriots aren’t those Patriots. “It’s not for lack of effort,” center Dan Koppen said not long after Dolphins kicker Dan Carpenter nailed a 41-yard field goal and Tom Brady [stats] responded by throwing his second interception of the day with :35 to play as Cameron Wake hammered him. Koppen is right. The Patriots’ problems are not from lack of effort or lack of planning. They are from lack of talent. Not so lacking that they aren’t competitive, but lacking enough that most every game is a struggle now. Today everyone will say, “They need a better pass rush.” From whom? They will say, “They need better pass coverage.” From whom? Some will say they need to run the ball more to take pressure off Brady and his ailing ring finger, sore shoulder and aching ribs. By whom? Years ago, Chuck Fairbanks said it best. “It’s not about X’s and O’s. It’s about Jimmys and Joes.” For half a decade with the Pats people believed otherwise. In Bill We Trust became the motto, but does anyone honestly believe Bill Belichick forgot how to coach? A guy who has been watching game film since he was 6 now can’t break down film and discover a team’s weaknesses? That’s not the problem. The problem is he can’t ask people to do what they are not capable of doing. Or, worse, he does and you end up with Sam Aiken, a guy brought here to replace Larry Izzo [stats] on special teams, as your third receiver making one great catch for a touchdown and dropping two key ones. Did he have a great game or a disastrous one? Probably both, which is A) not his fault because he’s playing a role he was never supposed to, and B) not something Belichick can change. “We’ve got to find a way to play better football for 60 minutes in all phases,” Brady said. “Everyone has to focus on what they need to do better. I think that’s the most important thing. And be mentally tough to overcome adversity and if things don’t go your way, you’ve got to fight back. That’s a challenge for all of us. At times I think we do, and other times, I don’t think we fight very hard.” The latter is a damning statement, but it’s also part of what separates the 2001 Pats from today’s. Remaining undaunted is a skill too and not everyone has it. “We have leads in the second half, and leads in the fourth quarter,” Brady continued. “We’re just not closing the game out when we have the opportunity to. We’re searching for the answers, too. “Coach always says, ‘You get what you deserve.’ In too many ways, you don’t deserve to win when you make as many mistakes as we do.” That’s true whether you make them on the field or in the front office.
Posts: 2,613

12-07-2009, 02:21 PM	#52
Titty Meat Inmem 2.0 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: My house Casino cash: $-992442	So we're ready to say Pioli sucks? Ya'll are drama queens.
Posts: 78,087

12-07-2009, 02:23 PM	#54
'Hamas' Jenkins Now you've pissed me off! Join Date: Jan 2006 Casino cash: $7269572	Let's look at the moves that he's made while he's actually been the one in charge: The hire of Todd Haley: Not damnable, but not inspiring of confidence either The trade for Cassel: Looks god awful, and not because of his lack of fantasy stats. He doesn't appear to have the native ability to succeed in his position. The contract to Cassel: We already owned his rights for 2 years, and were massively under the cap. This to, me, is the most damning move he's yet made. The hire of Clancy Pendergast: **ing awful. Arizona has the same talent in place as last year and is demonstrably better. Meanwhile, the Chiefs added their first three draft picks to the D and it's arguably just as bad (if not worse) than last year's D. At least we had **ing injuries last year. The trade of Gonzalez: His best move. It was a forward looking move that brings us quick help for a player at the end of his career. The signing of Zach Thomas: FAIL Bobby Engram: FAIL Bobby Wade: FAIL Amani Toomer: FAIL Monty Beisel: FAIL Mike Brown: FAIL Cutting Pollard: FAIL Trading a draft pick for Alleman and Eat Dookie: FAIL Addressing the OL through draft and FA: FAIL. It wasn't an OL-empty draft, either, nor was Ryan O'Callaghan the only RT available after September cuts. Bringing in Vrabel along w/ Cassel to establish veteran leadership: Nothing shows leadership like a 34 year old player flipping off the opposing sideline because he's experiencing multiple blowout losses for the first time in his career. Drafting a 5 Technique at 3 overall b/c you've painted yourself into a corner: FAIL Sean Ryan: FAIL Thigpen trade: Great move. Signing of Chris Chambers: Great move. I should be optimistic, huh? __________________ "When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read 'all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics.' When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty – to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy.”--Abraham Lincoln
Posts: 75,077

12-07-2009, 02:26 PM	#58
Titty Meat Inmem 2.0 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: My house Casino cash: $-992442	I'm not telling you what you should be, I just find it funny how the "Cassel sucks" threads disappear when they beat Pittsburgh and everyone praises him. Its 1 year the team has a chance to double it's win total from last year. New Englands first year with Belicheck they went 5-11.
Posts: 78,087