Chiefs The myth of Pioli - Page 18

B_Ambuehl · 12-07-2009, 01:12 PM

LOL I wonder if he's sharing that loaded contract he got from Clark with Bellichik.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/c...148&position=0

This time it’s personnel
Building to collapse
By Ron Borges
Monday, December 7, 2009 - Updated 4m ago
+ Recent Articles

MIAMI - Slowly but inexorably they are dissolving in front of our eyes. It is a process that didn’t begin this year for the New England Patriots [team stats] but way back in 2004, when nobody was paying attention to much else but the lifting of another Super Bowl banner.

That season they won their third Super Bowl in four seasons but also began a widely ignored decline that manifested itself emphatically the past month and came to a sad head yesterday at Land Shark Stadium when they lost for the third time in four weeks, blowing a 14-0 lead to be beaten at the buzzer by the Miami Dolphins [team stats], 22-21.

Five years ago, the Patriots draft garnered two starters, both on the first round. Not another player drafted in April of 2004 is still in uniform. That fallowness continued in 2005 when they again picked only two current starters. In 2006, they got only one, running back Laurence Maroney [stats], plus kicker Stephen Gostkowski. Then came the disaster of 2007, when only first-round pick Brandon Meriweather was good enough to still be in pro
football.

It is a bit early to know about 2008 but other than linebacker Jerod Mayo it again appears to be a sad lot. Second- and third-round picks Terrence Wheatley and Shawn Crable seldom see the field (Crable never has) and it is becoming increasingly more disastrous that cornerback Jonathan Wilhite sees so much of it. In those five years, the Patriots drafted 41 players and got eight starters, six on the first round. Otherwise they got what Bill Belichick kept saying was “value.” Yesterday, it didn’t look that way.

Free agency has produced similarly skimpy results. Early hits were made on Rodney Harrison [stats] and Mike Vrabel, but after that the cupboard has been bare. They paid $30 million to Adalius Thomas and promised he could cover Ocho Cinco and sack Peyton Manning. He’s done neither. Shawn Springs signed a three-year, $10.5 million deal last spring and hasn’t played a snap in a month, while poor Wilhite struggles out of position because he’s a nickel back asked to play corner and rookie Darius Butler goes out and proves that while he has potential he never saw receivers at UConn like the ones catching balls behind and in front of him now, as Greg Camarillo did on fourth-and-6 on the game’s most critical play yesterday.

While there were fruitful trades for Randy Moss and Wes Welker, they have netted big numbers but no championships, which is the same amount Moss’ teams have won since he first came into the NFL.

These facts led New Orleans Saints coach Sean Payton to tell his team before last Monday night’s game to be stout hearted and unafraid because “this isn’t the team that accomplished all that stuff.” Although his language was more colorful, his point was clear. These Patriots aren’t those Patriots.

“It’s not for lack of effort,” center Dan Koppen said not long after Dolphins kicker Dan Carpenter nailed a 41-yard field goal and Tom Brady [stats] responded by throwing his second interception of the day with :35 to play as Cameron Wake hammered him.

Koppen is right. The Patriots’ problems are not from lack of effort or lack of planning. They are from lack of talent. Not so lacking that they aren’t competitive, but lacking enough that most every game is a struggle now.

Today everyone will say, “They need a better pass rush.” From whom?

They will say, “They need better pass coverage.” From whom?

Some will say they need to run the ball more to take pressure off Brady and his ailing ring finger, sore shoulder and aching ribs. By whom?

Years ago, Chuck Fairbanks said it best. “It’s not about X’s and O’s. It’s about Jimmys and Joes.” For half a decade with the Pats people believed otherwise. In Bill We Trust became the motto, but does anyone honestly believe Bill Belichick forgot how to coach? A guy who has been watching game film since he was 6 now can’t break down film and discover a team’s weaknesses?

That’s not the problem. The problem is he can’t ask people to do what they are not capable of doing. Or, worse, he does and you end up with Sam Aiken, a guy brought here to replace Larry Izzo [stats] on special teams, as your third receiver making one great catch for a touchdown and dropping two key ones. Did he have a great game or a disastrous one? Probably both, which is A) not his fault because he’s playing a role he was never supposed to, and B) not something Belichick can change.

“We’ve got to find a way to play better football for 60 minutes in all phases,” Brady said. “Everyone has to focus on what they need to do better. I think that’s the most important thing. And be mentally tough to overcome adversity and if things don’t go your way, you’ve got to fight back. That’s a challenge for all of us. At times I think we do, and other times, I don’t think we fight very hard.”

The latter is a damning statement, but it’s also part of what separates the 2001 Pats from today’s. Remaining undaunted is a skill too and not everyone has it.

“We have leads in the second half, and leads in the fourth quarter,” Brady continued. “We’re just not closing the game out when we have the opportunity to. We’re searching for the answers, too.

“Coach always says, ‘You get what you deserve.’ In too many ways, you don’t deserve to win when you make as many mistakes as we do.”

That’s true whether you make them on the field or in the front office.

**SAUTO** · 12-07-2009, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Sanchez is one thing. Don't like the guy but I can't understand.

But no way in hell should the Chiefs have used a #3 pick on a ****ing 3-4 ILB. Now, if the Chiefs committed to a 4-3, maybe. But once they committed to a 4-3, no ****ing way.

curry would have fit right in here, i watched him get beat by a TE and then outran by said TE to the endzone on the highlights yesterday. now it was vernon davis but still.

FAX · 12-07-2009, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeezNutz

How do they score errors in MLB?

If you're a baseball fan, you understand the analogy.

Makes sense. One would think there would be some kind of standard, though.

I think it's probably hands on the ball. After all, you can't "drop" it if you don't "have" it.

FAX

chiefzilla1501 · 12-07-2009, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

Ernie Adams has been with BB since the ****ing 70's - and he has no more power than Pioli or anyone else in the organization had.

Belichick had final say on all football operations decisions.

This is backed up in print, in interviews, etc.

It's really not debatable.

Jay Glazer says otherwise:
http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2009/1...gm-scott-pioli
I'm not happy about the way Pioli has managed personnel decisions in KC anymore. But the extent people will exaggerate to criticize a guy is ridiculous. Pioli was a very big part of building the Patriots.

'Hamas' Jenkins · 12-07-2009, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAX

Makes sense. One would think there would be some kind of standard, though.

I think it's probably hands on the ball. After all, you can't "drop" it if you don't "have" it.

FAX

There is no standard, just like there's no standard for tackles.

**DeezNutz** · 12-07-2009, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAX

Makes sense. One would think there would be some kind of standard, though.

I think it's probably hands on the ball. After all, you can't "drop" it if you don't "have" it.

FAX

Kind of. But think about the Charles "drop."

The ball was thrown to his back shoulder and he reached back and got a hand on the ball. Is that a "drop" in your opinion?

To me, the answer is yes if we're talking about an elite WR. If, as is the case here, we're talking about a RB, the answer is a big ol' no way your lifetime backup to the backup Hoodie warmer QB sucks ass.

DrRyan · 12-07-2009, 05:45 PM

When I moved back to the states to Arizona from down under in 2006 I never thought that the Cardinals would be a model franchise that the Chiefs should be striving to be like. The same Cardinals with their 80+ year history of losing and playing the role of NFL doormat. It is crazy when I look at both teams since 2006 when I moved back. The Cardinals are seemingly making all the right decisions while the Chiefs continue to shoot themselves in the foot year after year.

The Cards:
Excellent hiring in Ken Wisenhunt. He is a great coach(IMO) that comes up with excellent game plans, makes in game adjustment, manages the clock and game situations and coaches his team up.

They have made many smart personnel moves. From letting Calvin Pace walk to an overpaid contract by the Jets to standing strong against Anquan Boldin's "demands." They have used the franchise tag wisely on Karlos Dansby.

They have drafted pretty well. Calais Campbell is an absolute beast as one of their 3-4 DE. Beanie Wells will be a stud in their offense if he can learn to hang on to the football. Steve Breaston in the 5th was a great pick. In the 2008 draft they came away with Rogers-Cromartie, Campbell, Doucet, Iwebema, and Hightower. All five of them are contributing this season.

All the things the Cards have done well in the last several years, the Chiefs have seemed to do poorly.

Just some random observations that seem to as well in this thread as anywhere else. Now if the Chiefs could get it right even 50% as often as the Cards have since Wisenhunt's arrival they would be on their way to being relevant again.

**DeezNutz** · 12-07-2009, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrRyan

When I moved back to the states to Arizona from down under in 2006 I never thought that the Cardinals would be a model franchise that the Chiefs should be striving to be like. The same Cardinals with their 80+ year history of losing and playing the role of NFL doormat. It is crazy when I look at both teams since 2006 when I moved back. The Cardinals are seemingly making all the right decisions while the Chiefs continue to shoot themselves in the foot year after year.

The Cards:
Excellent hiring in Ken Wisenhunt. He is a great coach(IMO) that comes up with excellent game plans, makes in game adjustment, manages the clock and game situations and coaches his team up.

They have made many smart personnel moves. From letting Calvin Pace walk to an overpaid contract by the Jets to standing strong against Anquan Boldin's "demands." They have used the franchise tag wisely on Karlos Dansby.

They have drafted pretty well. Calais Campbell is an absolute beast as one of their 3-4 DE. Beanie Wells will be a stud in their offense if he can learn to hang on to the football. Steve Breaston in the 5th was a great pick. In the 2008 draft they came away with Rogers-Cromartie, Campbell, Doucet, Iwebema, and Hightower. All five of them are contributing this season.

All the things the Cards have done well in the last several years, the Chiefs have seemed to do poorly.

Just some random observations that seem to as well in this thread as anywhere else. Now if the Chiefs could get it right even 50% as often as the Cards have since Wisenhunt's arrival they would be on their way to being relevant again.

Yeah, well, we have Clancy.

It's a process. Were you expecting a playoff birth? WTF?

We're changing a culture here. We're not talking about a perenial power like AZ where winning is expected and known.

'Hamas' Jenkins · 12-07-2009, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Jay Glazer says otherwise:
http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2009/1...gm-scott-pioli
I'm not happy about the way Pioli has managed personnel decisions in KC anymore. But the extent people will exaggerate to criticize a guy is ridiculous. Pioli was a very big part of building the Patriots.

Holy shit, you just shot yourself in the foot.

You know what Glazer says there?

He says that Pioli created the image of Belichick as a hardass, not that Pioli had any influence on the building of that team:
"I keep hearing rumblings over there with Pioli, same stuff behind the scenes.

"Everyone tries to make it like Bill Belichick's the mastermind up there in New England. It's not. It's Pioli. It's Pioli who permeated the entire image of Belichick as this monster up there.

"And you know Belichick, he's way more laid back in that right than people think. It's Pioli who gets people to think, 'Oh man if you don't have this done quickly coach is going to go nuts. It's Pioli who's saying, 'Oh man if you don't have this done coach is going to go crazy."
"I had one personnel guy tell me, 'Scotty's driving me nuts' because he'd come in there and say, 'Where is this?'

"[The personnel guy would] say, 'Well I thought I didn't have to have it in until Tuesday.' And Scotty would say, 'Oh man Bill is going to go crazy.'

"That guy comes flying into the office that day and says, 'Oh, Bill I'm so sorry' and Bill's like, 'What are you talking about? I don't need it until Tuesday.'

"So, Pioli likes to do that.

"When he went out to Kansas City he immediately made it like he wanted to keep a secret from everybody there and he made a place that's very un-enjoyable to go to work."

You know what that makes him look like?

An incompetent asshole who is a ****ing shit stirrer at work.

And everyone has worked with at least one ****tard like that, and now, he's running your football team.

**OnTheWarpath15** · 12-07-2009, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Jay Glazer says otherwise:
http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2009/1...gm-scott-pioli
I'm not happy about the way Pioli has managed personnel decisions in KC anymore. But the extent people will exaggerate to criticize a guy is ridiculous. Pioli was a very big part of building the Patriots.

I'll tell you what:

You trust Glazer, who reports 2nd and 3rd hand information, and I'll trust guys like Michael Holley, who spent 3 years embedded in the organization, and witnessed decisions actually being made.

Pioli could give BB all the input in the world, and when push comes to shove Belichick makes the decision.

Which comes back to the point originally being made:

Pioli was not a GM with NE, nor did he make decisions pertaining to football operations.

'Hamas' Jenkins · 12-07-2009, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

I'll tell you what:

You trust Glazer, who reports 2nd and 3rd hand information, and I'll trust guys like Michael Holley, who spent 3 years embedded in the organization, and witnessed decisions actually being made.

Pioli could give BB all the input in the world, and when push comes to shove Belichick makes the decision.

Which comes back to the point originally being made:

Pioli was not a GM with NE, nor did he make decisions pertaining to football operations.

OTW, Glazer doesn't even say what zilla says he says.

Read my post, it has everything he says in it, and it's not flattering of Pioli in the least.

**OnTheWarpath15** · 12-07-2009, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

OTW, Glazer doesn't even say what zilla says he says.

Read my post, it has everything he says in it, and it's not flattering of Pioli in the least.

Yeah, I noticed that after I re-read it.

I made the mistake of skimming it the first time.

The point still stands, however:

Quote:

Which comes back to the point originally being made:

Pioli was not a GM with NE, nor did he make decisions pertaining to football operations.

chiefzilla1501 · 12-07-2009, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Holy shit, you just shot yourself in the foot.

You know what Glazer says there?

He says that Pioli created the image of Belichick as a hardass, not that Pioli had any influence on the building of that team:
"I keep hearing rumblings over there with Pioli, same stuff behind the scenes.

"Everyone tries to make it like Bill Belichick's the mastermind up there in New England. It's not. It's Pioli. It's Pioli who permeated the entire image of Belichick as this monster up there.

"And you know Belichick, he's way more laid back in that right than people think. It's Pioli who gets people to think, 'Oh man if you don't have this done quickly coach is going to go nuts. It's Pioli who's saying, 'Oh man if you don't have this done coach is going to go crazy."
"I had one personnel guy tell me, 'Scotty's driving me nuts' because he'd come in there and say, 'Where is this?'

"[The personnel guy would] say, 'Well I thought I didn't have to have it in until Tuesday.' And Scotty would say, 'Oh man Bill is going to go crazy.'

"That guy comes flying into the office that day and says, 'Oh, Bill I'm so sorry' and Bill's like, 'What are you talking about? I don't need it until Tuesday.'

"So, Pioli likes to do that.

"When he went out to Kansas City he immediately made it like he wanted to keep a secret from everybody there and he made a place that's very un-enjoyable to go to work."

You know what that makes him look like?

An incompetent asshole who is a ****ing shit stirrer at work.

And everyone has worked with at least one ****tard like that, and now, he's running your football team.

It sounds to me like a guy who forced his scouts to work like fiends to get the right information and to get the right guy. A far departure from the Lynn Stiles method, which was to half-ass the scouting process and make a lot of decisions based on recommendations from coaches in his buddy network like John Bunting.

Bill Belichick is not the guy out there scouting. He's not the one travelling across the country looking at players, relentlessly going over combines, workouts, evaluations, etc.... He's not the one managing the scouts. He's not the one who gets the whole personnel process wheels. Belichick may have final influence on some personnel decisions. But no personnel decision can be made unless you have a team of extremely good, well managed scouts.

And from the sound of it, Pioli has his scouts going to millions of games this year across conferences.

DrRyan · 12-07-2009, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeezNutz

Yeah, well, we have Clancy.

It's a process. Were you expecting a playoff birth? WTF?

We're changing a culture here. We're not talking about a perenial power like AZ where winning is expected and known.

Sarcasm I guess?

My point was they are doing things the right way and the Chiefs are not. The Wisenhunt hiring was a watershed moment for the Cardinals. With that hiring the whole organization got better. I am not ready to throw Haley out with the bathwater yet, but the team does not appear to being "coach up." Unfortunately the culture does not seem to have changed much at all thus far.

Also, calling AZ a perennial power where winning is expected and known is a bit premature don't you think? More sarcasm? They certainly look like they could be a good team for a long time with Wisenhunt there, but when Warner leaves it is likely so do their winning ways is Leinart is the QBOTF.

'Hamas' Jenkins · 12-07-2009, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

It sounds to me like a guy who forced his scouts to work like fiends to get the right information and to get the right guy. A far departure from the Lynn Stiles method, which was to half-ass the scouting process and make a lot of decisions based on recommendations from coaches in his buddy network like John Bunting.

Bill Belichick is not the guy out there scouting. He's not the one travelling across the country looking at players, relentlessly going over combines, workouts, evaluations, etc.... He's not the one managing the scouts. He's not the one who gets the whole personnel process wheels. Belichick may have final influence on some personnel decisions. But no personnel decision can be made unless you have a team of extremely good, well managed scouts.

And from the sound of it, Pioli has his scouts going to millions of games this year across conferences.

Now that's some intellectual dishonesty right there. Just admit that you ****ed up, I'm not going to hold it against you.

With that said, just like he had his scouts going to every preseason NFL game?

Funny, how out of 60 preseason games, he found one player to sign who was waived after them...and he came from New England.

That's some ****ing due diligence.

It's also funny that you would impugn someone else for the buddy network while simultaneously praising Scott Oedipus.

**DeezNutz** · 12-07-2009, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrRyan

Sarcasm I guess?

My point was they are doing things the right way and the Chiefs are not. The Wisenhunt hiring was a watershed moment for the Cardinals. With that hiring the whole organization got better. I am not ready to throw Haley out with the bathwater yet, but the team does not appear to being "coach up." Unfortunately the culture does not seem to have changed much at all thus far.

Also, calling AZ a perennial power where winning is expected and known is a bit premature don't you think? More sarcasm? They certainly look like they could be a good team for a long time with Wisenhunt there, but when Warner leaves it is likely so do their winning ways is Leinart is the QBOTF.

Sarcasm? Me?

12-07-2009, 01:12 PM
B_Ambuehl Veteran Join Date: Apr 2005 Casino cash: $9705405	The myth of Pioli LOL I wonder if he's sharing that loaded contract he got from Clark with Bellichik. http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/c...148&position=0 This time it’s personnel Building to collapse By Ron Borges Monday, December 7, 2009 - Updated 4m ago + Recent Articles MIAMI - Slowly but inexorably they are dissolving in front of our eyes. It is a process that didn’t begin this year for the New England Patriots [team stats] but way back in 2004, when nobody was paying attention to much else but the lifting of another Super Bowl banner. That season they won their third Super Bowl in four seasons but also began a widely ignored decline that manifested itself emphatically the past month and came to a sad head yesterday at Land Shark Stadium when they lost for the third time in four weeks, blowing a 14-0 lead to be beaten at the buzzer by the Miami Dolphins [team stats], 22-21. Five years ago, the Patriots draft garnered two starters, both on the first round. Not another player drafted in April of 2004 is still in uniform. That fallowness continued in 2005 when they again picked only two current starters. In 2006, they got only one, running back Laurence Maroney [stats], plus kicker Stephen Gostkowski. Then came the disaster of 2007, when only first-round pick Brandon Meriweather was good enough to still be in pro football. It is a bit early to know about 2008 but other than linebacker Jerod Mayo it again appears to be a sad lot. Second- and third-round picks Terrence Wheatley and Shawn Crable seldom see the field (Crable never has) and it is becoming increasingly more disastrous that cornerback Jonathan Wilhite sees so much of it. In those five years, the Patriots drafted 41 players and got eight starters, six on the first round. Otherwise they got what Bill Belichick kept saying was “value.” Yesterday, it didn’t look that way. Free agency has produced similarly skimpy results. Early hits were made on Rodney Harrison [stats] and Mike Vrabel, but after that the cupboard has been bare. They paid $30 million to Adalius Thomas and promised he could cover Ocho Cinco and sack Peyton Manning. He’s done neither. Shawn Springs signed a three-year, $10.5 million deal last spring and hasn’t played a snap in a month, while poor Wilhite struggles out of position because he’s a nickel back asked to play corner and rookie Darius Butler goes out and proves that while he has potential he never saw receivers at UConn like the ones catching balls behind and in front of him now, as Greg Camarillo did on fourth-and-6 on the game’s most critical play yesterday. While there were fruitful trades for Randy Moss and Wes Welker, they have netted big numbers but no championships, which is the same amount Moss’ teams have won since he first came into the NFL. These facts led New Orleans Saints coach Sean Payton to tell his team before last Monday night’s game to be stout hearted and unafraid because “this isn’t the team that accomplished all that stuff.” Although his language was more colorful, his point was clear. These Patriots aren’t those Patriots. “It’s not for lack of effort,” center Dan Koppen said not long after Dolphins kicker Dan Carpenter nailed a 41-yard field goal and Tom Brady [stats] responded by throwing his second interception of the day with :35 to play as Cameron Wake hammered him. Koppen is right. The Patriots’ problems are not from lack of effort or lack of planning. They are from lack of talent. Not so lacking that they aren’t competitive, but lacking enough that most every game is a struggle now. Today everyone will say, “They need a better pass rush.” From whom? They will say, “They need better pass coverage.” From whom? Some will say they need to run the ball more to take pressure off Brady and his ailing ring finger, sore shoulder and aching ribs. By whom? Years ago, Chuck Fairbanks said it best. “It’s not about X’s and O’s. It’s about Jimmys and Joes.” For half a decade with the Pats people believed otherwise. In Bill We Trust became the motto, but does anyone honestly believe Bill Belichick forgot how to coach? A guy who has been watching game film since he was 6 now can’t break down film and discover a team’s weaknesses? That’s not the problem. The problem is he can’t ask people to do what they are not capable of doing. Or, worse, he does and you end up with Sam Aiken, a guy brought here to replace Larry Izzo [stats] on special teams, as your third receiver making one great catch for a touchdown and dropping two key ones. Did he have a great game or a disastrous one? Probably both, which is A) not his fault because he’s playing a role he was never supposed to, and B) not something Belichick can change. “We’ve got to find a way to play better football for 60 minutes in all phases,” Brady said. “Everyone has to focus on what they need to do better. I think that’s the most important thing. And be mentally tough to overcome adversity and if things don’t go your way, you’ve got to fight back. That’s a challenge for all of us. At times I think we do, and other times, I don’t think we fight very hard.” The latter is a damning statement, but it’s also part of what separates the 2001 Pats from today’s. Remaining undaunted is a skill too and not everyone has it. “We have leads in the second half, and leads in the fourth quarter,” Brady continued. “We’re just not closing the game out when we have the opportunity to. We’re searching for the answers, too. “Coach always says, ‘You get what you deserve.’ In too many ways, you don’t deserve to win when you make as many mistakes as we do.” That’s true whether you make them on the field or in the front office.
Posts: 2,613

12-07-2009, 05:45 PM	#261
DrRyan Veteran Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: AZ Casino cash: $4561721	When I moved back to the states to Arizona from down under in 2006 I never thought that the Cardinals would be a model franchise that the Chiefs should be striving to be like. The same Cardinals with their 80+ year history of losing and playing the role of NFL doormat. It is crazy when I look at both teams since 2006 when I moved back. The Cardinals are seemingly making all the right decisions while the Chiefs continue to shoot themselves in the foot year after year. The Cards: Excellent hiring in Ken Wisenhunt. He is a great coach(IMO) that comes up with excellent game plans, makes in game adjustment, manages the clock and game situations and coaches his team up. They have made many smart personnel moves. From letting Calvin Pace walk to an overpaid contract by the Jets to standing strong against Anquan Boldin's "demands." They have used the franchise tag wisely on Karlos Dansby. They have drafted pretty well. Calais Campbell is an absolute beast as one of their 3-4 DE. Beanie Wells will be a stud in their offense if he can learn to hang on to the football. Steve Breaston in the 5th was a great pick. In the 2008 draft they came away with Rogers-Cromartie, Campbell, Doucet, Iwebema, and Hightower. All five of them are contributing this season. All the things the Cards have done well in the last several years, the Chiefs have seemed to do poorly. Just some random observations that seem to as well in this thread as anywhere else. Now if the Chiefs could get it right even 50% as often as the Cards have since Wisenhunt's arrival they would be on their way to being relevant again.
Posts: 2,165