McGwire admits steroid use

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by penchief

You mean other than the obvious visual evidence? Mattingly was a small guy. He was 5'8" and wieghed less than 170 lbs when he first came into the league and probably wieghed about 180 lbs when he retired.

What the hell does "visual evidence" mean? Are you saying the small guys can't have taken steroids? You might want to look up some of the players that have actually been caught over the years. It's really just a myth that there is a body type for a steroid user.

Mattingly played in the same era that hundreds of other players used steroids, why are we supposed to believe he was one of the few "natural" ones?

[penchief]

Originally Posted by KC_Connection

What the hell does "visual evidence" mean? Are you saying the small guys can't have taken steroids? You might want to look up some of the players that have actually been caught over the years. It's really just a myth that there is a body type for a steroid user.

Mattingly played in the same era that hundreds of other players used steroids, why are we supposed to believe he was one of the few "natural" ones?

Mattingly's health was already declining by the time McGwire first started juicing. Why do you presume that Mattingly would not have received the same benifits that Mcgwire received. As his health declined so did his stats. The exact opposite is true for McGwire. Not only did he start breaking records once he started juicing he turned into the incredible hulk. The minimal weight gain that Mattingly expierenced over the length of his career (10 lbs?) Is easily explained by the natural filling out that takes place with men of that age.

It amazes me that so many are willing to point the finger at anyone and everyone in order to condone the poor conduct of someone they support.

The truth is that McGwire is a fraud who has no business anywhere near the HOF. Anyone with an analytic mind and a pair of eyes can see that he put up those record stats and gained 50lbs after he started juicing. That is evidence. No such comparison can be made to Mattingly. If so, where is the evidence?
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[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by penchief

Mattingly's health was already declining by the time McGwire first started juicing. Why do you presume that Mattingly would not have received the same benifits that Mcgwire received.

Not everybody receives the same benefit from them as others. They aren't some magic drug that suddenly makes a person stronger....you need to put the work in.

As his health declined so did his stats. The exact opposite is true for McGwire. Not only did he start breaking records once he started juicing he turned into the incredible hulk. The minimal weight gain that Mattingly expierenced over the length of his career (10 lbs?) Is easily explained by the natural filling out that takes place with men of that age.

You can't get more inexact than speculation based on how somebody "looks." Countless "skinny" players have been caught over the last few years....even a lot of "speed" guys.

It amazes me that so many are willing to point the finger at anyone and everyone in order to condone the poor conduct of someone they support.

I'm not a fan of McGwire, nor do I support his use of steroids. I'm merely realistic about the use of steroids in baseball (and in all of sports for that matter). Stop being naive and realize that the majority of players were using...and many of them still are.

The truth is that McGwire is a fraud who has no business anywhere near the HOF. Anyone with an analytic mind and a pair of eyes can see that he put up those record stats and gained 50lbs after he started juicing. That is evidence. No such comparison can be made to Mattingly. If so, where is the evidence?
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If McGwire doesn't make the HOF, then you have to pull out guys like Hank Aaron and Willie Mays for amphetamines, do you not? What's the difference?

And don't you then also have to investigate everybody who ever made the HOF to see if they ever did something illegal, and also take them out too?

[penchief]

Originally Posted by KC_Connection

Not everybody receives the same benefit from them as others. They aren't some magic drug that suddenly makes a person stronger....you need to put the work in.


You can't get more inexact than speculation based on how somebody "looks." Countless "skinny" players have been caught over the last few years....even a lot of "speed" guys.


I'm not a fan of McGwire, nor do I support his use of steroids. I'm merely realistic about the use of steroids in baseball (and in all of sports for that matter). Stop being naive and realize that the majority of players were using...and many of them still are.



If McGwire doesn't make the HOF, then you have to pull out guys like Hank Aaron and Willie Mays for amphetamines, do you not? What's the difference?

And don't you then also have to investigate everybody who ever made the HOF to see if they ever did something illegal, and also take them out too?

The real tragedy is that clean players not only had their legitimate stats cheapened by those who cheated but also that they have to suffer insult to injury by being painted with the same brush as those who cheated.

The other false premise being peddled is the notion that steroids are no different than uppers. The impact steroids has had on the record books is devastating and irreversable. To compare the two is nothing more than a talking point for apologists of those who used steroids to enhance their performance.
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[TigerPig]

If the real HR king Roger Maris isn't even in the HOF, then why should these juicing clownshoes be?

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by penchief

The real tragedy is that clean players not only had their legitimate stats cheapened by those who cheated but also that they have to suffer insult to injury by being painted with the same brush as those who cheated.

That's a shame, but it's the world we live in. If 80% of the people in the sport are "cheating," does it remain "cheating?" It sucks for the 20%, I suppose...but what are you going to do...ban the 80% and destroy the product on the field? Not likely.

The other false premise being peddled is the notion that steroids are no different than uppers. The impact steroids has had on the record books is devastating and irreversable. To compare the two is nothing more than a talking point for apologists of those who used steroids to enhance their performance.
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Amphetamines allowed baseball players (and still do allow baseball players) to play the game every single day. Without them, we wouldn't have seen many guys put up the numbers they did or play as long as they did. Actually, I can't think of any drug that would have more of an impact than those things...that's why they were used even more frequently than steroids.

Edit: Both were illegal drugs that players used to enhance their performance, btw. What am I missing here?

[penchief]

Originally Posted by KC_Connection

That's a shame, but it's the world we live in. If 80% of the people in the sport are "cheating," does it remain "cheating?" It sucks for the 20%, I suppose...but what are you going to do...ban the 80% and destroy the product on the field? Not likely.



Amphetamines allowed baseball players (and still do allow baseball players) to play the game every single day. Without them, we wouldn't have seen many guys put up the numbers they did or play as long as they did. Actually, I can't think of any drug that would have more of an impact than those things...that's why they were used even more frequently than steroids.

Edit: Both were illegal drugs that players used to enhance their performance, btw. What am I missing here?

If uppers had increased a player's strength to the point of hitting homers every six or seven times at bat I suppose you might have a valid point. But steroids didn't just help McGwire stay on the field. They made him into an unnatural freak who was able to turn pop flies into home runs.

That's a big difference. And it's a big enough difference to deem his numbers as not authentic and his playing career not worthy of the HOF. And his numbers should not be compared to those who didn't juice. Had he not juiced he would never have come close to HOF consideration.

By the way, I think your 80% figure is considerably high. The "everybody does it" excuse won't diminish the fact that McGwire's numbers are fraudulent. The fact that his numbers spike unnaturally during the time he was juicing should be evidence enough to the objective mind.

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by penchief

If uppers had increased a player's strength to the point of hitting homers every six or seven times at bat I suppose you might have a valid point. But steroids didn't just help McGwire stay on the field. They made him into an unnatural freak who was able to turn pop flies into home runs.

Amphetamines actually allowed the players the ability and stamina to put up the numbers in the first place. Guys like Hank Aaron extended their careers past 20+ years because of drugs like this. How is that not more important? How is that not enhancement? It just seems to me like an enormous double standard for you to sit here and forgive others for doing exactly the same thing.

By the way, I think your 80% figure is considerably high.

That's because you are incredibly naive.

The "everybody does it" excuse won't diminish the fact that McGwire's numbers are fraudulent. The fact that his numbers spike unnaturally during the time he was juicing should be evidence enough to the objective mind.

Read the Bill James essay for an actual objective take on this issue from somebody who actually knows what the hell he's talking about.