Berry is a real possibility for the Redskins

[Titty Meat]

Kelli Johnson (kjohnsoncsn) on Twitter

I'm told S Laron Landry left the Skins offseason workout program last wk;he's unhappy name has been thrown around in trade rumors. Not smart
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[RedThat]

I think this team w/ Vrabel, DJ, and Studebaker have good role players or Id even say those guys provide good depth.

Now, they just NEED starters. Get 3 new starters in here to solidify the LBing corps. Id say Hali is a starter, but Im being nice when I say that.

[Mecca]

Our fan base loves offensive lineman, actually a ton of fan bases do now and I realize why...

After guys like Mark Schelerth and Merrill Hodge etc etc got hired to work on national TV and they constantly pumped how offensive line is important it's a cliche line for casual fan to say to sound smart.

[aturnis]

Originally Posted by notorious

I have to ask:


Where the **** did this come from?

Pay attention.

Originally Posted by Mecca

If he takes Bryant after all that right 53 shit I'll laugh my balls off.

Originally Posted by billay

Dude he signed Shaun Smith and Chris Chambers. That theory is already bogus.

Outside of that, I'm not aware of any problems with Chambers.

[Saccopoo]

Originally Posted by Mecca

I think Sacc is one of those guys that thinks you need 5 all pro offensive linemen to move the ball.

I just watched 2 teams play in the bowl that didn't have any 1st round picks on their lines.

Personally, I don't care if they are all free agents. Seventh round draft choices. As long as they can play effectively in the system, that's all that matters. And it's painfully obvious that there are players on the offensive line that have not shown the proclivity to be effective to this point in their careers.

Frankly, I don't care about a draft position for any player. Priest Holmes was an UDFA but in the Vermeil system, he was as good a running back as I have ever seen. Will Shields might have been the best right guard to have ever played in the NFL and he was a third round pick.

However, if we have the chance to draft the best LT in the draft and have a need for a LT, which I believe we do, then you do it. That's it.

No matter how good Berry is, he's a ****ing safety. And as good as he is, he didn't do anything above and beyond a number of guys at his same position in this draft.

To spend the #5 pick on a guy who will be nothing more than a roamer in this defense is a real big stretch. I like the guy a lot, but let's be realistic about this. He's a safety.

I mean, shit. One of the greatest free safeties to ever play in the NFL was an undrafted college punter who got cut his first go 'round in the NFL. If you can make a ****ing punter a world class safety, why in the hell would you piss away a top five pick on one?

[tk13]

Originally Posted by Mecca

Our fan base loves offensive lineman, actually a ton of fan bases do now and I realize why...

After guys like Mark Schelerth and Merrill Hodge etc etc got hired to work on national TV and they constantly pumped how offensive line is important it's a cliche line for casual fan to say to sound smart.

That's not it. The reality, as usual... is somewhere in the middle. People either act like it's either the thing or it doesn't matter. You included. And of course it's important... I don't know about an all-star team but having a 1st round talent at LT usually a great advantage. It's not as important as QB but guys like Pace and Ogden won Super Bowls. I don't think you need 1st round picks across the line... but it's funny that the QB everybody loves is Mark Sanchez, and he is playing behind a line of four 1st round picks. The irony is pretty thick there.

But another part of it is Chiefs fans obviously remember the offensive success we had when we had a great offensive line. People will rebut with "how many playoff games they won" which of course is BS because they were about 0% responsible for us losing any playoff games.

[Mecca]

But the money that was pumped into that line did play into how much they could put into other players...

When you have an extremely highly paid guard what are you sacrificing for that? Look I'd be fine with taking a LT with a top 5 pick if the guy was an elite prospect, does anyone think Okung is the 2nd coming of Walter Jones?

Being the best player at your position in a draft doesn't make you a great player, this happens every year. When there's no elite prospect at a position so the top guy gets treated like he is, then the team wonders why their pick sucks.

[RedThat]

Originally Posted by tk13

That's not it. The reality, as usual... is somewhere in the middle. People either act like it's either the thing or it doesn't matter. You included. And of course it's important... I don't know about an all-star team but having a 1st round talent at LT usually a great advantage. It's not as important as QB but guys like Pace and Ogden won Super Bowls. I don't think you need 1st round picks across the line... but it's funny that the QB everybody loves is Mark Sanchez, and he is playing behind a line of four 1st round picks. The irony is pretty thick there.

But another part of it is Chiefs fans obviously remember the offensive success we had when we had a great offensive line. People will rebut with "how many playoff games they won" which of course is BS because they were about 0% responsible for us losing any playoff games.

Thank you. And I've stressed this sooooo many times on here. Do you think it goes into the minds of some people? It goes in one ear and out the other. I'll say it again, the Chiefs didn't win in the playoffs because they didn't have a well balanced team. It's as simple as that.

You're right offensive line had nothing to do with their playoff losses when you have no defense and Peyton Manning throws for a perfect game against you, well, chances are you are going to lose the football game.

[Bowser]

Originally Posted by tk13

That's not it. The reality, as usual... is somewhere in the middle. People either act like it's either the thing or it doesn't matter. You included. And of course it's important... I don't know about an all-star team but having a 1st round talent at LT usually a great advantage. It's not as important as QB but guys like Pace and Ogden won Super Bowls. I don't think you need 1st round picks across the line... but it's funny that the QB everybody loves is Mark Sanchez, and he is playing behind a line of four 1st round picks. The irony is pretty thick there.

But another part of it is Chiefs fans obviously remember the offensive success we had when we had a great offensive line. People will rebut with "how many playoff games they won" which of course is BS because they were about 0% responsible for us losing any playoff games.

Which brings us to our current line, and specifically, Albert. I can't figure out if people want us to draft Okung or one of his peers because they think Albert is a bust (which is just crazy talk, imo), or if they are looking for what you stated - a line full of guys that carry the "first round" mantra.

[aturnis]

Originally Posted by Mecca

But the money that was pumped into that line did play into how much they could put into other players...

When you have an extremely highly paid guard what are you sacrificing for that? Look I'd be fine with taking a LT with a top 5 pick if the guy was an elite prospect, does anyone think Okung is the 2nd coming of Walter Jones?

Being the best player at your position in a draft doesn't make you a great player, this happens every year. When there's no elite prospect at a position so the top guy gets treated like he is, then the team wonders why their pick sucks.

Quite for truth.

[notorious]

Originally Posted by Bowser

Which brings us to our current line, and specifically, Albert. I can't figure out if people want us to draft Okung or one of his peers because they think Albert is a bust (which is just crazy talk, imo), or if they are looking for what you stated - a line full of guys that carry the "first round" mantra.

Average is disappointing for a 1st round LT, but average is also good enough for the position.


Taking a LT at 5 is ****ing stupid.

[aturnis]

Originally Posted by RedThat

Thank you. And I've stressed this sooooo many times on here. Do you think it goes into the minds of some people? It goes in one ear and out the other. I'll say it again, the Chiefs didn't win in the playoffs because they didn't have a well balanced team. It's as simple as that.

You're right offensive line had nothing to do with their playoff losses when you have no defense and Peyton Manning throws for a perfect game against you, well, chances are you are going to lose the football game.

I think he's talking about the Schottemheimer years.

[RippedmyFlesh]

Originally Posted by aturnis

I think he's talking about the Schottemheimer years.

The point is still the same.
The chiefs haven't had balance consistantly since hank's years minus a couple of years with montana.

[Saccopoo]

Originally Posted by The Bad Guy

Do you even know who the Redskins have on the offensive line? Rabach, Dockery, Artis Hicks, Mike Williams and Stephon Heyer. That is their starting 5. That is the worst offensive line in the NFL. By far.

It's completely tragic. If I was a Redskins fan and they passed on Okung (who might not even be there when they pick as Detroit really doesn't want to see Stafford on the IR ever again), I'd pick up the pitchfork and torch and head off towards Snyder's house.

Yes, that offensive line really looked overmatched when Jamal Charles was running circles around people.

Yes, it did. Charles showed exceptional fluidity and vision when he was finally given the chance. But it was not because the offensive line suddenly "got it" and were opening these massive holes to run through. Charles has a fantastic burst and is able to accelerate very quickly. He also has a knack for avoiding initial contact at the first level. I'm not making the comparison, but Barry Sanders was able to rack up some very impressive yardage over the course of his career behind a rather lackluster offensive line. An offensive line that got their QB pressured a ton, did nothing in the red zone, etc.

The line still gave up a ton of QB hits and pressures, penalties, etc., even when Charles took over lead RB duties at the midway point of the season.

Lilja, Mike Goff really? He was playing very well when he was here during his first stint. So the coaching that Mudd gave him he's automatically going to lose?

Mike Goff was pretty well respected in the league prior to his release by the Chargers. All I'm saying is that teams just don't cut guys for no reason. I like Lilja and it's nice to see him come home. (Lake Quivira kid.)

The problem is you think we need to fill our need on the line with our first pick.

No. I really like Okung and think he would be a perfect fit for this system. If he's not available, I'd like to see the Chiefs pick up Berry.

I love how you keep saying Albert was horrible, yet he didn't decline as the year went on. I know you expected him to look like a world-beater in his 2nd year in a new system, but some of us are willing to give him a 2nd year in the same system to see what he can do.

That's fine. It's just a matter of opinion in terms of looking at the Chiefs' needs. I don't think Albert has the skill set to be truly effective as a left tackle in a zone blocking system. I don't think he's shown enough to be given another year to make his case. I think that Okung is the prototype for a LT, especially for what the Chiefs want. I think that Albert could be an All-Pro at the LG spot in this system. I think that having Okung and Albert on the left side would provide an insanely good wall for a QB to work behind. I think that there isn't much in the way of LT in the next two drafts and if they have a chance at a guy like Okung and pass it would be a bad thing. I think that it's a moot point as both Detroit and Washington would be ****ing reeruned for passing on Okung. (Same could be said about Tampa Bay because they don't have shit at offensive tackle either.)

We can get an RT replacement later in the draft.

The same can be said for virtually every position on the football field with the exception of left tackle and quarterback. And if the left tackle doesn't pan out at left tackle, they can be moved to right tackle, left guard or right guard and be pretty effective. You can't do that with many/any other positions on the football field.

The Redskins are going for broke now. You don't trade for a 33 year old QB who you will likely open the brinks truck up for after this year to watch him get murdered.

The Redskins are broke. It's what happens when a lazy, non-motivated defensive tackle constitutes 40% of your entire teams payroll/salary cap. I don't see them opening the Brinks truck for a mid-30's QB anyway, but they have to upgrade their offensive line and Shanahan has shown that he will pick tackles in the first round. Even if Okung gets picked by the Lions, which I suspect will happen, I still see the Redskins going with either Trent Williams or Bryan Bulaga.

There's a stark difference between Stephon Heyer and Brendan Albert.

How so?

2009 season comparison:
Albert:
Snaps: 920
Sacks: 7
Penalties: 13
QB Hits: 9

Heyer:
Snaps: 974
Sacks: 8
Penalties: 9
QB Hits: 10

Difference doesn't seem all that "stark" to me.

[Saccopoo]

Originally Posted by Mecca

And now we've come to the realization of why this team has a problem moving forward, the best player doesn't always play. the coach plays favorites etc etc.

I don't think that the coach plays favorites. Belcher ended up as the starter at MLB and was playing pretty well. DJ had his head up his ass the whole season during practice, probably due to the prima donna treatment he received at the hands of Herm, and didn't do anything to earn a starting spot. Regardless of his potential, which is huge, he's been soft in terms of his general attitude since he came into the league. If he can step it up, I think he'll be very effective as a ILB in this system. He can't shed the blocks well enough to be an OLB in a 3-4, but his speed and instinct will allow him to be a damn fine ILB if he wants to be one.

[Saccopoo]

Originally Posted by Mecca

You're valuing position over player...

What if Russell Okung is a solid starter that never makes a pro bowl while Berry is Reed. An ok OT is not better than a perennial pro bowler.

What if Okung ends up an All-Pro and Berry is Michael Huff v.II?

What if both end up solid starters versus Pro Bowlers who would you rather have?

As of right now, no one knows how either will end up in terms of their careers in the NFL. If Okung isn't an NFL left tackle, at least he can be moved to three other positions on the line and be a quality starter at any of those. If Berry isn't a starting caliber NFL safety, then he's a special team guy at best.

Also, all of the people saying "Draft Berry because we have Albert" haven't considered the situation with Jarrad Page. Is Page, comparatively, better or worse at his position than Albert at this point? I'd say better. So, why is it okay to draft Berry and move Page, versus draft Okung and move Albert?

I'll take my chances with Okung if the two are available.