Lack of quality WR's hurting Cassel & Chiefs

[Just Passin' By]

Originally Posted by milkman

All you have to do is look at my posts about Cassel in '09 to see that I understand that the Patriots played a lot of shotgun before McDumbass changed things.

He did increase the usage of shotgun, though, and that as much as the return of Neal, played a role in the sack numbers falling.

I'm sorry, but that's just not correct. The move to shotgun had an impact, no question, but there's a reason that sack numbers plummeting coincided precisely with Neal's return to the starting lineup.

[BossChief]

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By

I'm sorry, but that's just not correct. The move to shotgun had an impact, no question, but there's a reason that sack numbers plummeting coincided precisely with Neal's return to the starting lineup.

bullshit

the sacks went down almost immediately after they moved to an almost exclusive shotgun spread in the second half of 08.

How is that even a debate?

[Just Passin' By]

Originally Posted by BossChief

bullshit

the sacks went down almost immediately after they moved to an almost exclusive shotgun spread in the second half of 08.

How is that even a debate?

The huge jump in shotgun snaps began in the second quarter of the Jets game, when the Patriots had fallen behind 24-6 which was week 11. The sack number had begun the plummet in week 9. In fact, week 9 was the only game of the year in which Cassel was not sacked. Week 10 resulted in just one sack of Cassel.

As I've noted, I'm not saying that the increase in snaps from the shotgun didn't help. I'm simply pointing out that Neal's return was a much more important factor.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By

The huge jump in shotgun snaps began in the second quarter of the Jets game, when the Patriots had fallen behind 24-6 which was week 11. The sack number had begun the plummet in week 9. In fact, week 9 was the only game of the year in which Cassel was not sacked. Week 10 resulted in just one sack of Cassel.

As I've noted, I'm not saying that the increase in snaps from the shotgun didn't help. I'm simply pointing out that Neal's return was a much more important factor.

The transition started in the game against Buffalo, and the game against the Jets was the week after that, in week 10.

[Just Passin' By]

Originally Posted by milkman

The transition started in the game against Buffalo, and the game against the Jets was the week after that, in week 10.

The 0 sack game came in week 9. That was against the Colts. That was the Neal's first start of the season. The massive jump in the shotgun percentage came in the Jets game, which wasn't until 2 weeks later.

The bottom line is that the improvement was there and significant, just as it has been in Kansas City with the improved line this year. Going back and forth about how much attribution to give to the shotgun snaps doesn't really change that.

Cassel needs a line, just like every other QB in football. He's got a better one this year than last, and he's playing better as a result. Better receivers will help even more, assuming he returns next year.


Just as a tangental note, this discussion is extra amusing to me because several Patriots fans spent much of 2008-2009 complaining that the use of the spread/shotgun was the cause of an alleged high number of QB hits on Cassel and Brady.

[BossChief]

Originally Posted by milkman

The transition started in the game against Buffalo, and the game against the Jets was the week after that, in week 10.

This is exactly what I remember from those NFLN replays.

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By

The 0 sack game came in week 9. That was against the Colts. That was the Neal's first start of the season. The massive jump in the shotgun percentage came in the Jets game, which wasn't until 2 weeks later.

They changed at the halfway point of the season, not game 11.

Milkman is right in this case, like it or not.

Nobody would dare debate that a better line will improve a quarterbacks play, especially line guys like myself and Milk. But you cant try to act like a quarterback should need superior offensive linemen and receivers to be good.

Thats just crazy.

A quarterback has to help the rest of the offense be better, not the other way around.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By

The 0 sack game came in week 9. That was against the Colts. That was the Neal's first start of the season. The massive jump in the shotgun percentage came in the Jets game, which wasn't until 2 weeks later.

The massive jump came against the Jets, but they did start to use the shotgun a bit more against the Bills than they had prior to that.

Now I didn't see that Colts game, so I can't comment on whether they actually used it more in that game or not, but I do know that the percentage of plays out of the shotgun against Buffalo was probably about 7-10% higher than it had been used in the games that I'd watched previous to that.

[Just Passin' By]

Originally Posted by milkman

The massive jump came against the Jets, but they did start to use the shotgun a bit more against the Bills than they had prior to that.

Now I didn't see that Colts game, so I can't comment on whether they actually used it more in that game or not, but I do know that the percentage of plays out of the shotgun against Buffalo was probably about 7-10% higher than it had been used in the games that I'd watched previous to that.

I've got no issue with this post, and I've got no problem saying that the increased number of snaps in the spread helped Cassel's game tremendously in the 2008 season. That's not surprising at all, since the team had been all about 3 and 4 wide receiver sets since 2007 (68% of the team's snaps), and cutting back on that when Cassel came aboard meant that Cassel was not just learning the game, but learning the game with an adjusted system. That's probably something Belichick and McDaniels would do differently if they had a do-over.

I'm just noting that the drop in sack numbers began with, and centered around, Neal, not the jump to the spread. If you're interested, you might care to have a look at this article, written the week after the Colts game, for some additional information, including this:

They aren't spreading the field as much, but are still in either three-receiver or four-receiver packages 55.5 percent of the time.

http://www.boston.com/sports/footbal...nt_positi.html


Nice chat tonight, btw, without the vitriol. Thanks for that. It's become the exception around here, rather than the rule. I've got to run, but I'll check back on this thread tomorrow, in case you want to continue with this.

[BoneKrusher]

Montana as a chief in 93 had Willie Davis, JJ Birdin and Keith Cash as his corps of WR's and he made them look way better than they actually were and took them to the AFC championship game.

Cassel has a pro bowler in Bowe.