A CB in the 1st or 2nd? - Page 2

Chiefnj2 · 01-31-2011, 10:04 AM

Stop one second with the gut reaction of "the secondary is fine, Flowers and Carr are good CB's and Arenas is a good nickle back." Maybe, maybe not.

The reason I'm asking is that last year after the Jets lost in the playoffs, Tannenbaum asked Ryan what he thought the team needed the most to continue to be competitive, and Rex said athletic, physical corners. He said to beat the Manning's, Rothlisberger's, Rivers' and Brady's you needed tough physical corners. Even though they had Revis, a decent pass D, and a struggling pass rush they brought in Cromartie and used a 1st round pick on Wilson.

Even though Flowers is solid, and Carr has his moments, should KC entertain using an early draft pick on a physical CB?

suds79 · 01-31-2011, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

Interesting that you think Rex's logic is flawed when he has taken a completely rebuilt team to the AFC Championship his first two years.

Yeah no doubt he's built a strong competitive team. But who keeps beating him?

Peyton Manning, Ben Rothlisberger.

Just furthers my opinion that to win a SB, you have to have a franchise, superstar QB. Everybody else is pretty much filler.

**The Franchise** · 01-31-2011, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suds79

Yeah no doubt he's built a strong competitive team. But who keeps beating him?

Peyton Manning, Ben Rothlisberger.

Just furthers my opinion that to win a SB, you have to have a franchise, superstar QB. Everybody else is pretty much filler.

Manning didn't beat him this time.

DJ's left nut · 01-31-2011, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeezNutz

I continue to claim that Carr is the single most underrated player on the roster.

I'm fast approaching the point of overplaying my hand and saying he's one of the most underrated players in the AFC.

If I had the option of locking up Flowers or locking up Carr at 80% of what it would take to extend Flowers, I'd go with Carr without hesitating. In fact, with the way Carr played over the last 8 games of the season, I would not be surprised to see him become a better corner than Flowers over the next season or two.

Physically, Carr has much greater upside than Flowers. He's bigger, he's stronger, he's faster in a straight line, his first step is just as good and he's pretty much the same in and out of his cuts. Mentally, he's not quite at Flowers level, but he's growing in that regard by leaps and bounds each season. If he progresses next season like he did this year, he could absolutely pass Flowers.

So to answer the question - oh hell no. There is absolutely no way this team can justify taking a CB in round 1 or 2. We have the potential to have the absolute best secondary in the AFC given no upgrades in our defensive backfield. I recognize Ryan's approach here, but the 50 years of football that preceded it don't lie.

The Chiefs will take the next step defensively when they get another body that can get after the QB and they get a legitimately imposing presence on the interior line.

**DeezNutz** · 01-31-2011, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the Talking Can

he changed my opinion this year...i hope we lock him up, you could argue he was more consistent than Flowers last half of the year, though he isn't as good in run support...

Don't disagree, but much of this, IMO, was that Flowers was playing hurt. Carr is really solid, but Flowers has the potential to be elite.

Too often last year, I saw a lot of criticism directed at Carr when the prime culprit was shit play out of the safety position. That was the case against Denver, for example, when Touchdown Brown was just killing us.

ChiefsCountry · 01-31-2011, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suds79

Just furthers my opinion that to win a SB, you have to have a franchise, superstar QB. Everybody else is pretty much filler.

The Jets have a potential one on the roster right now, so he basically is just filling in the other pieces.

suds79 · 01-31-2011, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pestilence

Manning didn't beat him this time.

Okay this topic is venturing off the point quickly.

My point wasn't specifically towards games this year. Who beat who. Or that overall team talent isn't important. It's a factor.

The overall point I was trying to make that winning a championship is largely all about having a franchise QB. That's it.

I suppose I can't blame Rex for not realizing that. He probably does. After all. He took his shot and drafted one high. Got to take a chance. Something the Chiefs should learn from.

**DeezNutz** · 01-31-2011, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I'm fast approaching the point of overplaying my hand and saying he's one of the most underrated players in the AFC.

If I had the option of locking up Flowers or locking up Carr at 80% of what it would take to extend Flowers, I'd go with Carr without hesitating. In fact, with the way Carr played over the last 8 games of the season, I would not be surprised to see him become a better corner than Flowers over the next season or two.

Physically, Carr has much greater upside than Flowers. He's bigger, he's stronger, he's faster in a straight line, his first step is just as good and he's pretty much the same in and out of his cuts. Mentally, he's not quite at Flowers level, but he's growing in that regard by leaps and bounds each season. If he progresses next season like he did this year, he could absolutely pass Flowers.

So to answer the question - oh hell no. There is absolutely no way this team can justify taking a CB in round 1 or 2. We have the potential to have the absolute best secondary in the AFC given no upgrades in our defensive backfield. I recognize Ryan's approach here, but the 50 years of football that preceded it don't lie.

The Chiefs will take the next step defensively when they get another body that can get after the QB and they get a legitimately imposing presence on the interior line.

I completely agree with the bold.

CB is strange in that it takes some of the "it" factor that makes for a great QB. Swagger, leadership, etc. I see those qualities as innate in Flowers but necessarily in Carr. You're right that the latter is more naturally gifted, though.

DJ's left nut · 01-31-2011, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeezNutz

I completely agree with the bold.

CB is strange in that it takes some of the "it" factor that makes for a great QB. Swagger, leadership, etc. I see those qualities as innate in Flowers but necessarily in Carr. You're right that the latter is more naturally gifted, though.

See, that's actually what I liked about Carr. Even as a rookie, I saw that swagger despite the fact that he was too green to back it up. I think the first season with Haley got in his head a little bit, leading to him being a touch tentative to start the season.

Every time I look at the two of them I see Haley and Carter, I just can't help it. Flowers physical attributes and his style of play are dead ringers for James Hasty, ditto Carr for Carter.

Carter would make some plays that drove you nuts, but when it came right down to it, that guy was capable of absolutely shutting down a WR on his good days. I loved the steady strength and reliability of James Hasty, but I always favored Carter's style a bit more.

Pablo · 01-31-2011, 03:00 PM

No.

Flowers, Carr, Berry and Lewis will be the best secondary in football in no less than two years.

Just let it happen, brah.

**BigMeatballDave** · 01-31-2011, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

Even though Flowers is solid, and Carr has his moments, should KC entertain using an early draft pick on a physical CB?

x 1000

**BigMeatballDave** · 01-31-2011, 03:26 PM

Oh, and Carr is also solid.

**** me running, people. Improve the pass rush, the secondary will improve.

suzzer99 · 01-31-2011, 04:12 PM

I say BPA at all costs. Even if that means 3 running backs, 3 corners and a long-snapper.

**BigMeatballDave** · 01-31-2011, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suzzer99

I say BPA at all costs. Even if that means 3 running backs, 3 corners and a long-snapper.

'Hamas' Jenkins · 01-31-2011, 04:33 PM

Look, there is going to be value at rush backer or WR when we pick in the first. The one advantage you have in picking later in the rounds is that although some of the elite talent is gone, the odds of a team making a mistake and causing a superior player to drop (relative to his overall grade) increases exponentially.

There is a good chance that one of Houston, Kerrigan, Jones, or even Aldon Smith could be available where we pick.

Some team will have a Tyson Jackson moment, and it will cause a player we never expected to drop to us. It's up to Pioli to pounce on that opportunity.

suzzer99 · 01-31-2011, 06:28 PM

It's also a lot easier to trade out of the later part of the first round than it is the top 5 or 10.

01-31-2011, 10:04 AM
Chiefnj2 In Search of a Life Join Date: Mar 2007 Casino cash: $6674388	A CB in the 1st or 2nd? Stop one second with the gut reaction of "the secondary is fine, Flowers and Carr are good CB's and Arenas is a good nickle back." Maybe, maybe not. The reason I'm asking is that last year after the Jets lost in the playoffs, Tannenbaum asked Ryan what he thought the team needed the most to continue to be competitive, and Rex said athletic, physical corners. He said to beat the Manning's, Rothlisberger's, Rivers' and Brady's you needed tough physical corners. Even though they had Revis, a decent pass D, and a struggling pass rush they brought in Cromartie and used a 1st round pick on Wilson. Even though Flowers is solid, and Carr has his moments, should KC entertain using an early draft pick on a physical CB?
Posts: 22,540

01-31-2011, 03:00 PM	#24
Pablo Ultrabanned Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Northland Casino cash: $-1700644	No. Flowers, Carr, Berry and Lewis will be the best secondary in football in no less than two years. Just let it happen, brah.
Posts: 43,810

01-31-2011, 03:26 PM	#26
BigMeatballDave GBM 8-12-15 Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Dayton, Oh. Casino cash: $10052154	Oh, and Carr is also solid. **** me running, people. Improve the pass rush, the secondary will improve.
Posts: 59,997

01-31-2011, 04:12 PM	#27
suzzer99 In Search of a Life Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: L.A. Casino cash: $-615716	I say BPA at all costs. Even if that means 3 running backs, 3 corners and a long-snapper.
Posts: 28,353

01-31-2011, 04:33 PM	#29
'Hamas' Jenkins Now you've pissed me off! Join Date: Jan 2006 Casino cash: $7239572	Look, there is going to be value at rush backer or WR when we pick in the first. The one advantage you have in picking later in the rounds is that although some of the elite talent is gone, the odds of a team making a mistake and causing a superior player to drop (relative to his overall grade) increases exponentially. There is a good chance that one of Houston, Kerrigan, Jones, or even Aldon Smith could be available where we pick. Some team will have a Tyson Jackson moment, and it will cause a player we never expected to drop to us. It's up to Pioli to pounce on that opportunity. __________________ "When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read 'all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics.' When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty – to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy.”--Abraham Lincoln
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01-31-2011, 06:28 PM	#30
suzzer99 In Search of a Life Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: L.A. Casino cash: $-615716	It's also a lot easier to trade out of the later part of the first round than it is the top 5 or 10.
Posts: 28,353