***Official 2010-2011 Hockey Thread***

[DaFace]

It's that time again!

[blaise]

Originally Posted by Rams Fan

Did not realize that Buffalo had low ticket prices. Yeah, I realize they had an ownership issue, but it seems like a hockey city. I can't imagine Tampa's ticket prices being that low for that much longer if they make a deep run in the playoffs.

Buffalo is a hockey city, but it's not that big. I bet 25% of their sales are from Rochester, which is about an hour and a half away (and an hour and a half back)
Plus, the economy in Buffalo isn't all that great. But they love the Sabres up there.

[The_Doctor10]

Originally Posted by Rams Fan

Winnipeg's arena has the minimum amount of seating that the NHL will allow, is that correct? And when is the Thrasher's lease up with Phillips Arena? I know their owner is selling the team because: 1.They really care more about the Hawks. 2. 2 of the people in the ownership group had to buy out about 30% of the team from someone, if that is correct. I know things in Phoenix are worse.




Who relocates after the Thrashers and Coyotes? Islanders?

If it's not at the minimum, it's barely above it. 15,105 I believe. But it has 20 or 30 luxury boxes, and it's a solid venue. I think you're gonna see more hockey rinks moving towards smaller capacities. The Devils new building is only 17K. In baseball, a lot of newer buildings are less than 45,000 seats. (Pittsburgh, Philly, St Louis and the Mets all moved into smaller facilities than the ones they were playing in before).

In my heart of hearts, I hope the Islanders stay where they are. That team suffers from appalling ownership, and they play in an awful building. But they were a dynasty at one point. They shouldn't be forced to leave.

After Phoenix and Atlanta, I'd say Florida's probably the next in line to go to a healthy hockey market. That's a team that has almost no history and no real hope to get better. Leave now.

Beyond those three, I think the league gets remarkably healthier. Nashville is having a great year financially, and they're growing the game well there. Dallas is a good hockey market, but it can't be underscored just how much the fans in Dallas hate Tom Hicks. Once the ownership situation is sorted (rumors abound about Cuban plunking down 200M for the team) you'd see the fans come back.

Columbus needs to get its act together. Find a centre for Rick Nash, solidify the defense, and allow Steve Mason to develop at a normal pace. They're the only game in town, professionally speaking, and they had excellent attendance up until recently. They need to learn to win, or they'd be a team in trouble IMO.

In a perfect world, any teams relocating would go (In order) to Winnipeg, QC, southern Ontario, Hartford, Milwaukee and on down the list. Just, no more non-traditional hockey markets for now.

[The_Doctor10]

Originally Posted by blaise

Buffalo is a hockey city, but it's not that big. I bet 25% of their sales are from Rochester, which is about an hour and a half away (and an hour and a half back)
Plus, the economy in Buffalo isn't all that great. But they love the Sabres up there.

A lot of Buffalo's ticket sales are from people in Ontario who don't like/can't get Leafs tickets. The Sabres have been an infinitely better-run organization post-lockout to boot.

[blaise]

Originally Posted by Unleash_the_Phury

A lot of Buffalo's ticket sales are from people in Ontario who don't like/can't get Leafs tickets. The Sabres have been an infinitely better-run organization post-lockout to boot.

I think that lends to keeping prices low, though. They have to draw from a sort of wide area. I think if they price them too high people in that southern part of Ontario or Rochester just won't make the drive.
And I agree Buffalo is a very well run organization. They've moved players in and out and let guys go they couldn't afford, and still stayed very competitive. And always managed to find good goaltenders even though teams like Philly seem to struggle to do that over the years.

[Rams Fan]

Originally Posted by Unleash_the_Phury

If it's not at the minimum, it's barely above it. 15,105 I believe. But it has 20 or 30 luxury boxes, and it's a solid venue. I think you're gonna see more hockey rinks moving towards smaller capacities. The Devils new building is only 17K. In baseball, a lot of newer buildings are less than 45,000 seats. (Pittsburgh, Philly, St Louis and the Mets all moved into smaller facilities than the ones they were playing in before).

Can't speak for the other baseball stadiums, but I know Busch has less seats because it has more luxury boxes than the old stadium.

In my heart of hearts, I hope the Islanders stay where they are. That team suffers from appalling ownership, and they play in an awful building. But they were a dynasty at one point. They shouldn't be forced to leave.

Wang's an idiot. And they really need a new arena. Nasseau or whatever isn't that good.

After Phoenix and Atlanta, I'd say Florida's probably the next in line to go to a healthy hockey market. That's a team that has almost no history and no real hope to get better. Leave now.

I doubt the Panthers will relocate considering that Bernie Kosar owns them and played for the Dolphins at one point in his career.

Beyond those three, I think the league gets remarkably healthier. Nashville is having a great year financially, and they're growing the game well there. Dallas is a good hockey market, but it can't be underscored just how much the fans in Dallas hate Tom Hicks. Once the ownership situation is sorted (rumors abound about Cuban plunking down 200M for the team) you'd see the fans come back.

Agreed.

Columbus needs to get its act together. Find a centre for Rick Nash, solidify the defense, and allow Steve Mason to develop at a normal pace. They're the only game in town, professionally speaking, and they had excellent attendance up until recently. They need to learn to win, or they'd be a team in trouble IMO.

Yep. Aren't they losing $12 million or so per year?

In a perfect world, any teams relocating would go (In order) to Winnipeg, QC, southern Ontario, Hartford, Milwaukee and on down the list. Just, no more non-traditional hockey markets for now.

Milwaukee isn't going to get a team unless a new arena is built. Hartford needs a new arena. I think QC and Winnipeg are locks in terms of getting new teams.

[The Poz]

Originally Posted by Unleash_the_Phury

A lot of Buffalo's ticket sales are from people in Ontario who don't like/can't get Leafs tickets. The Sabres have been an infinitely better-run organization post-lockout to boot.

Yep, I grew up in Hamilton Ontario (45 minutes from Buffalo) and I knew quite a few people who actually had seasons tickets. A less hectic drive and cheaper tickets than going to a Leafs game. Quite a few people live between Hamilton and Niagara Falls/Fort Erie.
It was often thought that approx 50% of the seats in Buffalo were filled by Canadians. If I'm not mistaken the Sabres used to offer seats to Canadians at par when the difference in our dollar was ridiculous.

[The_Doctor10]

Originally Posted by Rams Fan

Can't speak for the other baseball stadiums, but I know Busch has less seats because it has more luxury boxes than the old stadium.

Yep. Aren't they losing $12 million or so per year?



Milwaukee isn't going to get a team unless a new arena is built. Hartford needs a new arena. I think QC and Winnipeg are locks in terms of getting new teams.

Oh I agree that the American cities need new buildings too before they get teams, but I only mean that it makes more sense to look at hockey in those markets before going to say, Houston or KC.

And of course the luxury box thing is a key, but a lot of people must be realizing that you can't build a venue bigger than your market. The sprint center in KC is 17,000ish, the penguins new building is only a hair over 18k. The only buildings that should be in that 20,000 plus category are Montreal and maybe Toronto.

Winnipeg at 15k is probably a little smaller than everyone would like, but the fact that True North owns the MTS Centre and takes all the revenue that building generates means that they're better equipped to make money than Phoenix, who was admittedly hamstrung with maybe the worst lease in pro sports.

Columbus losing $12m a year sounds low, honestly. They've been having attendance issues for at least two years from what I recall. If all they're losing is 12m, they should almost consider themselves lucky. Yikes

[Predarat]

It might do well in Houston, but Winnipeg would be a great place to put a team again. I'm not sure if QC can support an NHL team. Hamilton with Toronto and Buffalo so close, they cannot have a team withing a certain range of those teams so I don't know how possible it is, but if they had a team that bastard basilly would go away lol.

[Rams Fan]

Originally Posted by Predarat

It might do well in Houston, but Winnipeg would be a great place to put a team again. I'm not sure if QC can support an NHL team. Hamilton with Toronto and Buffalo so close, they cannot have a team withing a certain range of those teams so I don't know how possible it is, but if they had a team that bastard basilly would go away lol.

I think Winnipeg, Houston and QC can support a team. The only problem with Houston is they tend to not have a large attendance if teams aren't playing that well. The Rockets, for example, are in the lower 3rd of attendance average per game in the NBA. I can't imagine a team in Houston being better than that if they had a sub-par year. If Hamilton gets a team, the Sabres are screwed.

[blaise]

I hope they don't put a team in Hamilton. It would be bad for Buffalo.
I don't think hockey would work in Houston. I lived there three years and I just don't see it selling. The team would have to be very good for the people to go.
Isn't Winnipeg small? I hear about teams going back there, but I don't know.

[Rams Fan]

Originally Posted by blaise

I hope they don't put a team in Hamilton. It would be bad for Buffalo.
I don't think hockey would work in Houston. I lived there three years and I just don't see it selling. The team would have to be very good for the people to go.
Isn't Winnipeg small? I hear about teams going back there, but I don't know.

Winnipeg was one of the smallest markets in the league, if not the smallest. Unleash the Phury could probably explain why the Jets left in the first place, but the size of Winnipeg was the main reason, I think.

[blaise]

Originally Posted by Rams Fan

Winnipeg was one of the smallest markets in the league, if not the smallest. Unleash the Phury could probably explain why the Jets left in the first place, but the size of Winnipeg was the main reason, I think.

I don't know if many players would want to stay there either. I think once guys got a chance for free agency a lot would want to move to a bigger city or a warmer climate. I get that it's a Canadian hockey town, and that adds something to it, but I bet they'd lose some guys over it.

[Demonpenz]

Penguins won over the redwings on the road in a shootout yesterday. Pretty sweet win.

[blaise]

Originally Posted by Demonpenz

Penguins won over the redwings on the road in a shootout yesterday. Pretty sweet win.

And then Matt Cooke got suspended. He must be dumb as rocks to go with that head shot against the Rangers. It wasn't even like someone could say it was accidental in any way.

[The_Doctor10]

Originally Posted by Rams Fan

Winnipeg was one of the smallest markets in the league, if not the smallest. Unleash the Phury could probably explain why the Jets left in the first place, but the size of Winnipeg was the main reason, I think.

The arena was the only reason the Jets left. You can argue there were other factors, but at the end of the day, the Winnipeg Arena was an atrocious hellhole of a facility that made the Mellon Arena look like University of Phoenix Stadium. And it only sat at most 13K. Maybe less. And Winnipeg, while a small market, is only maybe a hundred thousand people smaller than Edmonton. The market research True North has done has indicated that while Winnipeg might not have 10,000 people willing to buy a full slate of season tickets, it's very manageable for them to get 20,000 half-season ticket holders. At present, Winnipeg is set up to succeed long-term far more than Phoenix is.

One other thing... look though, at the team the Jets had a few years before they left. A young Nikolai Khabibulin, a young Keith Tkachuk, a very young Shane Doan, Teppo Nummenin, Teemu Selanne... That was a damn good team and if they'd been given a chance, they could've been great. Alas... at least the Yotes didn't rub it in Winnipeg's face a la Colorado...

Originally Posted by blaise

I don't know if many players would want to stay there either. I think once guys got a chance for free agency a lot would want to move to a bigger city or a warmer climate. I get that it's a Canadian hockey town, and that adds something to it, but I bet they'd lose some guys over it.

Winning brings players. Look at Green Bay. When Edmonton was in their glory years, they didn't have a problem signing players. Hell, at one point Wayne Gretzky signed a 15-year 20M contract. The problem Edmonton faces isn't that it's in Edmonton, it's that the management isn't viewed favorably throughout the league. There were reports that they forced Sheldon Souray to come back before his shoulder had properly healed, because he was their 'big ticket' free agent signing. Not a good reflection on your front office. Pronger asked to be traded only after he knocked up some chippie reporter and his wife threw a Hall-of-Fame hissy over it. The team also has a bad rap thanks to Kevin Lowe's offer sheet to Dustin Penner. Why he couldn't just ask for him in the Pronger trade is anyone's guess, but whatever.

If Winnipeg puts a good organization in place from the GM down, that finds consistently good players that allow the team to be competitive year in and year out, free agents will come. Though honestly, free agency has become less and less of a factor over the lockout. The number of true top-tier impact players is minimal simply because GMs lock up their guys through their restricted free agent years. And at that point, when a player has played five or six years for a team, there's an attachment to the city and the team that makes players willing to take a little bit less. And while Winnipeg is cold, these are Canadians. They grew up in this stuff. And Winnipeg has nightclubs and slutty chicks just like every other city in the world; guys will play there and stay there if they think the organization gives them a chance at a Stanley Cup.