Pearl Harbor Day

[cabletech94]

Didn't feel like saying "happy" in the title. But i do believe that this day in history had a major affect on our lives.


Both my grandpa's served in wwII, so i guess i'm a little partial to those who serve.
Good day.

[trndobrd]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

A huge point you are missing is that these three countries did not tremendous religious/ethnic hatreds internally. They were largely homogenous and therefore the chances of internal strife greatly minimized.

The country of Iraq is just a series of lines drawn on a map in the 20s in England. Since then, it has had nothing holding it together except authoritarian rule. Tremendously fertile ground for ethnic/religious strife. Afghanistan is an area dominated by tribal rivalries.

I'm not missing the issue of internal ethnic issues. The issue Rain Man raised was how quickly the Axis powers switched sides, not why they didn't devolve into chaos.

On the subject of internal issues, Italy and Germany both had their issues. Keep in mind, what is present day Germany had been in existance less than 100 years and had largely been held together by authoritarian rule. Had the Allies not kept the existing power structure in place, and established a strong occupation government, a power vacum would have developed similar to Iraq (Afghanistan has never had a strong central power) and attracted opportunists.

Interestingly, it was the rise of an external threat in Iraq, in the form of foreign fighters, that played a large role in turning the tide.



BTW, I wouldn't be so quick to claim that Germany didn't have tremendous internal ethnic hatreds, although it is fair to say that it was mostly resolved by 1945.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by Cheater5

The Japanese sailors that carried out the attack can be forgiven. I agree.

They are our allies because we conquered them-they've had no choice since September of 1945.

Really? Have you noticed Iraq since 2003? Japan has a population of 127MM now. In 1945 what was it? 80 million maybe? 60 million? Iraq has half that.

The type of enemy they presented themselves to be dictated our actions following VJ Day. But my suspicions will always remain concerning Japan--

In 1987, Tocibai Machine, a subsidiary of Toshiba, was accused of illegally selling CNC milling machines used to produce very quiet submarine propellers to the Soviet Union in violation of the CoCom agreement, an international embargo on certain countries to COMECON countries.The incident strained relations between the United States and Japan, and resulted in the arrest and prosecution of two senior executives, as well as the imposition of sanctions on the company by both countries. The US had always relied on the fact that the Soviets had noisy boats, so technology that would make the USSR's submarines harder to detect created a significant threat to America's security. Senator John Heinz of Pennsylvania said "What Toshiba and Kongsberg did was ransom the security of the United States for $517 million."

Wow, that's relevant...

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by trndobrd

I'm not missing the issue of internal ethnic issues. The issue Rain Man raised was how quickly the Axis powers switched sides, not why they didn't devolve into chaos.

They didn't switch sides. They were defeated, and chose the "side" of their occupying powers. Luckily, in the case of the West, our occupation was benevolent enough, and/or the altneratives bad enough, that our relationship continued to improve even post-occupation.

On the subject of internal issues, Italy and Germany both had their issues. Keep in mind, what is present day Germany had been in existance less than 100 years and had largely been held together by authoritarian rule. [/quote]

What is present day Germany was an area that had many long-standing historic ties but had not been formally forged together as a single socio-economic unit. Besides, 100 years is enough to survive EVERYONE. In the entire living memory of EVERYONE in the country, Germany was a single, unified country.

Had the Allies not kept the existing power structure in place, and established a strong occupation government, a power vacum would have developed similar to Iraq (Afghanistan has never had a strong central power) and attracted opportunists.

What existing power structure? The Nazis were ruthlessly and in some cases, foolishly swept out of every office high and low, even if they were nothing but bureaucrats who had become "card carrying Nazis" out of peer pressure or for simple job survival.

Senior American military officers in many instances were less than happy about this approach, but the political pressure was far too great to resist.

I'm less knowledgeable about Japan, but the military caste system was wiped out and the entire structure reorganized from the Emperor's authority on down via a new Constitution.

BTW, I wouldn't be so quick to claim that Germany didn't have tremendous internal ethnic hatreds, although it is fair to say that it was mostly resolved by 1945.

Suffice to say that Nazis evil had purged any possibility of internal strife over ethnicity by 1945.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by beach tribe

I was watching CNN the other day, and the runner at the bottom said:
"cut backs looming: U.S to have smallest Navy since 1915, and smallest AF in US history"

I was like...are you ****ing kidding me?

"smallest" by what measure?

[mlyonsd]

Originally Posted by mlyonsd

History buffs, FYI....new show on the History Channel tonight at 7pm CT on Pearl Harbor.

Pearl Harbor: 24 Hours After
NEW

A documentary reveals secrets and little-known details of FDR's reactions in the earliest hours after the Japanese attacks on Oahu.

Awesome show.

Lots of things I didn't know.

Funniest one was the day after the attack when Roosevelt went to the Capitol to give his famous 'Infamy' speech the SS was worried about 'people' that might try to assasinate him. The rule of the day was the government couldn't spend more than $750 for a car.

At the time they didn't have a bullet proof car so they borrowed one confiscated from Capone to drive FDR to the Capitol.

FDR said "I hope Al doesn't mind".

[LiveSteam]

I enjoyed it

[Marcellus]

Originally Posted by splatbass

The war ended 65 years ago. Holding hate in your heart for a country full of people that weren't even alive then is ridiculous and only hurts you.

Easy for you to say. You ever spend time in a POW camp?

I suggest you read the book "Unbroken" then put yourself in that situation then come back and tell everyone they shoukd be able to forgive the atrocities they experienced.

I will say the main charachter in the book Louis Zamprese ended up becoming a saved Christian and more or less forgave the Japanese and his captives but as told in the book he was an exception.

Should we as a group of people (most of the US ) that never dealt with being beaten tortured and treated completely inhumanely carry the same hate? No.

Should we judge those that were treated that way and didnt forgive? I think not.