Video of Police shooting man 30+ times

[Mr. Laz]

Video captures Michigan man's shooting by police
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/16/us/mic...ing/index.html

From Jason Carroll and Sheila Steffen, CNN
updated 10:12 AM EDT, Fri August 17, 2012

Man killed by cops, shot multiple times

STORY HIGHLIGHTS

• Milton Hall was killed in a confrontation with police in Saginaw, Michigan
• "It appeared to be a firing squad dressed in police uniforms," his mother says
• Prosecutors and state police are investigating Hall's killing
• His family says he was mentally ill and questions why the probe is taking so long

Saginaw, Michigan (CNN) -- Three days before Independence Day, Milton Hall died in a fusillade of police gunfire outside a strip mall.
He had been arguing with officers in a parking lot next to a shuttered Chinese restaurant when he was shot, in full view of passing motorists and while he was holding some sort of knife. Saginaw County Prosecutor Michael Thomas said later that the squad of police confronting him opened fire "because apparently, at this point in time, he was threatening to assault police."

Thomas' office and the Michigan State Police are investigating Hall's death. Saginaw Police Chief Gerald Cliff said Hall was "known to be an assaultive person" with "a long history" of contacts with law enforcement, "not only with police from our department but with the county."
Hall's cousin, Mike Washington, acknowledged Hall had been jailed for minor offenses like vagrancy in the past, but, "He was not violent." And Hall's mother is growing impatient with the probe and questions why police opened fire so furiously on her son, whom she said was mentally ill.

The chart blog: Mental health

"It appeared to be a firing squad dressed in police uniforms," Jewel Hall told CNN from her hometown of Albuquerque, New Mexico. "There was another way. They did not have to kill him. He had not done anything. He was not violent. He was not a murderer. He was not a criminal."
Jewel Hall said her son had once trained as a civil right activist, been an avid reader and played football. He had lived in Saginaw for 35 years and received Social Security disability payments for a mental illness, but, "He knew his rights."

"Everybody knew him. The police knew him well," she said. "So that's another question: they knew him, so why? Why did they kill him?"

WJRT: Community questions police shooting

The July 1 shooting happened in a parking lot on West Genessee Avenue, a busy commercial strip on the north side of Saginaw. In a video purchased by CNN, shot by a motorist from across the street, the 49-year-old Hall is seen arguing with a half-dozen officers. For more than three minutes, he walks back and forth, and at one time appears to crouch in a "karate stance," according to the man who captured the scene.

Police said Hall had just had a run-in with a convenience store clerk. On the video, he tells police, "My name is Milton Hall, I just called 911. My name is Milton, and I'm p---ed off." When an officer tells him to put the knife down, he responds, "I ain't putting s--t down." He appears unimpressed by a police dog, telling officers, "Let him go. Let the motherf---ing dog go."

Finally, he turns to the left of the frame, where another officer had moved out of view a short time earlier. It's then that the police open fire with a reported 46 shots in a five-second hail of bullets.
"I'm stunned that six human beings would stand in front of one human being and fire 46 shots," Jewel Hall said. "I just don't understand that. It's a lot of pain in that because it only takes one shot, so the question is why?"

She questioned why none of the cameras in the police cars at the scene recorded the shooting -- "none of them work."

"So that's the question I have and the community has is, what's taking so long?" she said. "Why is not being transparent?"

Lou Palumbo, a former Long Island police officer, told CNN's "Anderson Cooper 360" that the video is "a perceptive nightmare" for a police department and could reflect a lack of training by the officers.

"This wasn't a scenario where he was discharging a weapon in their direction," he said.

But Palumbo added that the shooting may yet be determined to be justifiable. "One of the things the public has to understand, an individual wielding a knife at you at about 20 feet can be on top of you in a split second," he said. "The public doesn't know this because they don't do this for a living."

Neither state police nor the prosecutor's office would comment on the investigation. In a written statement to CNN, the state police said, "Our focus is on conducting a complete and thorough investigation, rather than a hasty one."

But Saginaw City Councilman Norman Braddock, who also has criticized the pace of the investigation, said the probe should be a "top priority."
When CNN showed Braddock the video, which he hadn't seen before, he said, "This is disturbing."

"I can see what people are traumatized at, looking at something like that," Braddock said. "We need answers."

Jewel Hall said her family is conducting its own investigation into the shooting, "and at the end of that investigation we will decide what next steps to take with our legal advisors."

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by petegz28

You don't seem to get it or understand the law. What sucks for the cops is this is on video. The man was clearly down and they continued to shoot excessively. Adrenline is not a legal justification to continue shooting someone who is no longer posing a threat.

Uh...yeah, I both get and understand the law. It's sorta my job and 4 states have decided that I understand it well enough to let me practice it. I'm absolutely certain that one of us here has a better handle on the law than the other, and it ain't you.

Adrenaline can absolutely negate the mens rea that would be required for murder. It can also allow the conduct of someone to pass as reasonable given the circumstances in a manslaughter case.

You're just really very wrong here. I'll let you go ahead and retract your sterling legal analysis if you'd like and carry on with your pitchforks.

[Donger]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Uh...yeah, I both get and understand the law. It's sorta my job and 4 states have decided that I understand it well enough to let me practice it. I'm absolutely certain that one of us here has a better handle on the law than the other, and it ain't you.

Adrenaline can absolutely negate the mens rea that would be required for murder. It can also allow the conduct of someone to pass as reasonable given the circumstances in a manslaughter case.

You're just really very wrong here. I'll let you go ahead and retract your sterling legal analysis if you'd like and carry on with your pitchforks.

Sorry, can't help it:

[petegz28]

Put it in context of what will probably take place in court..

Defense Attorney: Officer why did you discharge your firearm?

Officer: The suspect posessed a knife and made a move towards another officer I thought the need to incapacitate the suspect by all means was the appropriate action.

Defense Attorney: Officer, given your training would you consider a suspect whois not in possesion of a firearm and who has been shot multiple time and is laying on the ground a threat to you or others?

Officer: No, at that point the suspect would no longer be an immediate threat.

Defense Attorney: Officer, why did you continue to discharge your firearm multiple times after the suspect was clearly incapacitated?

Officer: It was the adrenaline

Defense Attorney: Isn't it part of your training to only discharge your weapon when there is an immediate threat to you or others?

Officer: Yes, that is correct

Defense Attorney: Officer, again, why did you continue to discharge your firearm multiple times after the suspect was clearly incapacited

Officer: Adrenaline

Defense Attorney: The Defense rests your Honor.

[crazycoffey]

[Setsuna]

Wow just saw it. You can't shoot a warning shot first?

[petegz28]

Originally Posted by Donger

Just making sure, Pete. Now, how did these officers legally violate excessive force? Not your opinion, legally.

Because the suspect had been incapacitated and no longer posed any threat to them or anyone else yet they continued to fire their weapons regardless. Why they did it is rather irrelevant when it comes down to it. They did it and that's that. There was no reason for them to continue shooting the man after they dropped him and the excuse of "my adrenaline was flowing" most likely isn't going to fly.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by petegz28

Put it in context of what will probably take place in court..

Defense Attorney: Officer why did you discharge your firearm?

Officer: The suspect posessed a knife and made a move towards another officer I thought the need to incapacitate the suspect by all means was the appropriate action.

Defense Attorney: Officer, given your training would you consider a suspect whois not in possesion of a firearm and who has been shot multiple time and is laying on the ground a threat to you or others?

Officer: No, at that point the suspect would no longer be an immediate threat.

Defense Attorney: Officer, why did you continue to discharge your firearm multiple times after the suspect was clearly incapacitated?

Officer: It was the adrenaline

Defense Attorney: Isn't it part of your training to only discharge your weapon when there is an immediate threat to you or others?

Officer: Yes, that is correct

Defense Attorney: Officer, again, why did you continue to discharge your firearm multiple times after the suspect was clearly incapacited

Officer: Adrenaline

Defense Attorney: The Defense rests your Honor.

I....uh....assume you mean prosecuting attorney? If the officer's defense attorney is asking him those questions, he's doing a pretty poor job.

But again, you're pretty good at this law thing.

Let me tell you how that actually goes. How it actually goes is that the officers probably don't take the stand at all - because why would you allow them as their defense counsel? There's nothing gained by it.

Then what happens is that the prosecutors have really nothing to go by other than the video - so they play it. And for 10 minutes the jury is pretty shocked by it.

Defense counsel then puts up an expert that has years of training in the effects of adrenaline on officers and the physiological impact on life/death stressors on the human body. You probably go ahead an introduce service records (though the prosecutors may object to relevance or improper bolstering, but they'll probably get in).

And all that is assuming that the prosecutors survived the Mx for directed verdict. Afterall, in order to have excessive force you'd have to establish that any of those shots actually impacted and that but/for those shots, the man would've survived.

But yeah - you're really good at this lawyerin' thing.

These folks aren't going to jail.

[Strongside]

I don't know if it's because everything that happens is recorded and put online for the world to so we're just more aware, or if police brutality is on a steep increase but it's disturbing. I got into a fight this St. Patricks Day in Westport at McCoy's...It was a combination of alcohol and some frat guy basically dumping a beer down my fiancee's back...anyhow, I was heated and confronted the guy. He hit me, so I tackled him and proceeded to return the favor a few times. The bouncers grabbed me up and escorted me out, where I was met by two police officers. I was still angry, but I was in no way posing a threat to anyone. One of the cops asked me what the problem was and put his hand on me and told me to calm down. I turned toward him to tell them what happened and stuck my hands in my pockets...the cop instantly drew his gun on me and yelled for me to 'get my ****ing hand out of my pocket.' I was obviously taken aback by this...I've never been arrested or even been given a speeding ticket. After I did, the cop put his gun back in his holster and we talked. After what I've seen on the internet from police, it was insane that he could have shot me in the face for 'posing a threat to him' and gotten away with it, even though I wasn't being hostile at all. There's a problem with law enforcement in this country...that's my 2 cents, anyway.

[petegz28]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I....uh....assume you mean prosecuting attorney? If the officer's defense attorney is asking him those questions, he's doing a pretty poor job.

But again, you're pretty good at this law thing.

Let me tell you how that actually goes. How it actually goes is that the officers probably don't take the stand at all - because why would you allow them as their defense counsel? There's nothing gained by it.

Then what happens is that the prosecutors have really nothing to go by other than the video - so they play it. And for 10 minutes the jury is pretty shocked by it.

Defense counsel then puts up an expert that has years of training in the effects of adrenaline on officers and the physiological impact on life/death stressors on the human body. You probably go ahead an introduce service records (though the prosecutors may object to relevance or improper bolstering, but they'll probably get in).

And all that is assuming that the prosecutors survived the Mx for directed verdict. Afterall, in order to have excessive force you'd have to establish that any of those shots actually impacted and that but/for those shots, the man would've survived.

But yeah - you're really good at this lawyerin' thing.

These folks aren't going to jail.

God damn dude it was jut to prove a point about the adrenaline defense , don't be so literal

[petegz28]

Originally Posted by Strongside

I don't know if it's because everything that happens is recorded and put online for the world to so we're just more aware, or if police brutality is on a steep increase but it's disturbing. I got into a fight this St. Patricks Day in Westport at McCoy's...It was a combination of alcohol and some frat guy basically dumping a beer down my fiancee's back...anyhow, I was heated and confronted the guy. He hit me, so I tackled him and proceeded to return the favor a few times. The bouncers grabbed me up and escorted me out, where I was met by two police officers. I was still angry, but I was in no way posing a threat to anyone. One of the cops asked me what the problem was and put his hand on me and told me to calm down. I turned toward him to tell them what happened and stuck my hands in my pockets...the cop instantly drew his gun on me and yelled for me to 'get my ****ing hand out of my pocket.' I was obviously taken aback by this...I've never been arrested or even been given a speeding ticket. After I did, the cop put his gun back in his holster and we talked. After what I've seen on the internet from police, it was insane that he could have shot me in the face for 'posing a threat to him' and gotten away with it, even though I wasn't being hostile at all. There's a problem with law enforcement in this country...that's my 2 cents, anyway.

Rule #1 when dealing with cops: Always keep your hands where they can see them.

Having said that I am rather surprised he cussed at you. Generally speaking they are really not supposed to do that.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by petegz28

God damn dude it was jut to prove a point about the adrenaline defense , don't be so literal

You want these people imprisoned and you want to try to argue law.

You clearly have no idea how it actually operates. There are very clear elements that will have to be established to have these people convicted for murder, manslaughter or excessive force and as near as I can tell you're incapable of actually doing any of it. You're most assuredly not capable of understanding how the 'adrenaline' argument would serve to negate all of the nonsense you claim it can't touch.

Like I said, you're welcome to retract your sterling legal analysis in favor of pitchforks and the purported moral high ground; such is your prerogative. But if you want to talk out your ass and call out those that know a hell of a lot more about this than you do for analytical inaccuracies, you probably shouldn't pout when your idiocy gets fed to you.

M'kay, sweetheart?

[DJ's left nut]

Off to barbecue, gentlemen. I've said about what I have to say on this and figure I'm just talking in circles at this point. It's been real.

[petegz28]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

You want these people imprisoned and you want to try to argue law.

You clearly have no idea how it actually operates. There are very clear elements that will have to be established to have these people convicted for murder, manslaughter or excessive force and as near as I can tell you're incapable of actually doing any of it. You're most assuredly not capable of understanding how the 'adrenaline' argument would serve to negate all of the nonsense you claim it can't touch.

Like I said, you're welcome to retract your sterling legal analysis in favor of pitchforks and the purported moral high ground; such is your prerogative. But if you want to talk out your ass and call out those that know a hell of a lot more about this than you do for analytical inaccuracies, you probably shouldn't pout when your idiocy gets fed to you.

M'kay, sweetheart?

It obviously went right over your head. Then again when I said I wasn't being literal but just pointing out how stupid it sounds to say "Adrenaline".

[Johnny Vegas]

did the SEAL team shoot bin laden 30 ****ing times? no.

[Strongside]

Originally Posted by petegz28

Rule #1 when dealing with cops: Always keep your hands where they can see them.

Having said that I am rather surprised he cussed at you. Generally speaking they are really not supposed to do that.

Yeah, like I said, I've never dealt with the police other than when they came to break up my parties in college. I wasn't thinking straight because of the fight, so I put my hands in my pocket. Having a gun in my face was definitely no bueno though.