Which was most influential

[AustinChief]

Originally Posted by AustinChief

If we are talking about influential in society then these two are neck and neck... if we are talking inspiring to other musicians then they again both are near the top... if we are talking genuine influence on music and pushing genres forward neither breaks the top 10, nor the top 20, The Beatles may sneak into the top 50... maybe... if we limit the criteria to the 20th century.

To expand on my post.. i would put guys like Charlie Parker, Dave Brubeck, Stan Getz and Duke Ellington above both. If we limit it to pop/rock then Buddy Holly jumps far ahead of both... so does Duane Eddy or Booker T. And of course the Beach Boys.

I'm a big fan of both the Beatles and Elvis but neither did a huge amount to push the envelope. It can be argued that the Beatles did as they matured but again, not nearly as much as so many others.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by AustinChief

To expand on my post.. i would put guys like Charlie Parker, Dave Brubeck, Stan Getz and Duke Ellington above both. If we limit it to pop/rock then Buddy Holly jumps far ahead of both... so does Duane Eddy or Booker T. And of course the Beach Boys.

I'm a big fan of both the Beatles and Elvis but neither did a huge amount to push the envelope. It can be argued that the Beatles did as they matured but again, not nearly as much as so many others.

I wholeheartedly disagree.

The Beatles absolutely changed the direction of music, and are responsible for the crap noise that has been generated for the last 40 years.

I don't dislike the Beatles, but I despise the dircection that music took as a result of their influence.

[AustinChief]

Originally Posted by milkman

I wholeheartedly disagree.

The Beatles absolutely changed the direction of music, and are responsible for the crap noise that has been generated for the last 40 years.

I don't dislike the Beatles, but I despise the direction that music took as a result of their influence.

I would list that under "inspire" not influence. I know I am kinda defining my own terms here but I don't see much of what they did as anything particularly new or special.. just popular. the Beach Boys on the other hand actually create new sounds... so did Phil Spector for that matter.

I agree with you that they influenced music in the way you are defining it... for sure. I am just trying to take the conversation more into the realm of actual changes to how the music is structured or played. I guess I should change the term to INNOVATE.. I don't see either as big innovators but the bands I listed were.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by AustinChief

I would list that under "inspire" not influence. I know I am kinda defining my own terms here but I don't see much of what they did as anything particularly new or special.. just popular. the Beach Boys on the other hand actually create new sounds... so did Phil Spector for that matter.

I agree with you that they influenced music in the way you are defining it... for sure. I am just trying to take the conversation more into the realm of actual changes to how the music is structured or played. I guess I should change the term to INNOVATE.. I don't see either as big innovators but the bands I listed were.

It was their innovation that changed the direction of music.

A song like "She's Leaving Home" was groundbreaking and introduced the idea that musical instruments just making noise is music.

Now it's all just ****ing noise.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

Originally Posted by milkman

It was their innovation that changed the direction of music.

A song like "She's Leaving Home" was groundbreaking and introduced the idea that musical instruments just making noise is music.

Now it's all just ****ing noise.

Why are you even posting in here... you don't even like music.

[AustinChief]

Originally Posted by milkman

It was their innovation that changed the direction of music.

A song like "She's Leaving Home" was groundbreaking and introduced the idea that musical instruments just making noise is music.

Now it's all just ****ing noise.

Well I certainly disagree about that song being "noise" but nothing on that song was innovative. Maybe it was the first example you know of, but it certainly wasn't unique to popular music at the time.

That same year you had the Moody Blues album Days of Future Passed... before that you had (as already mentioned) the Beach Boys and Phil Spector pushing this sound.

You also had "The Sun Ain't Gonna Shine Anymore" by the Walker Brothers... a number of hits by The Zombies and one of my favorites.. The Left Banke.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

Originally Posted by AustinChief

To expand on my post.. i would put guys like Charlie Parker, Dave Brubeck, Stan Getz and Duke Ellington above both. If we limit it to pop/rock then Buddy Holly jumps far ahead of both... so does Duane Eddy or Booker T. And of course the Beach Boys.

I'm a big fan of both the Beatles and Elvis but neither did a huge amount to push the envelope. It can be argued that the Beatles did as they matured but again, not nearly as much as so many others.

I'll disagree about The Beatles there. Their early stuff was literally just pop fodder but their later stuff... Sgt. Peppers, I Am The Walrus etc was pretty ground breaking.

[AustinChief]

Originally Posted by Dr. Johnny Fever

I'll disagree about The Beatles there. Their early stuff was literally just pop fodder but their later stuff... Sgt. Peppers, I Am The Walrus etc was pretty ground breaking.

Hence why I said it could be argued "as they matured"... although by that time they weren't really pushing an envelope that hadn't already been pushed by bands like The Beach Boys with multi-track recording and Phil Spector with his wall of sound. Even Paul McCartney admits that a ton of what came out on Sgt Peppers was inspired by Good Vibrations.

They simply weren't very ground breaking. Again, top 50 in the 20th century in that regard... maybe.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

Originally Posted by AustinChief

Hence why I said it could be argued "as they matured"... although by that time they weren't really pushing an envelope that hadn't already been pushed by bands like The Beach Boys with multi-track recording and Phil Spector with his wall of sound. Even Paul McCartney admits that a ton of what came out on Sgt Peppers was inspired by Good Vibrations.

They simply weren't very ground breaking. Again, top 50 in the 20th century in that regard... maybe.

I saw the rest of your post. I pretty much just wanted to further the debate heh.

While I appreciate what they did...... God I hate the Beach Boys. Just passionately hate them. Sorry.

[Baby Lee]

Originally Posted by AustinChief

Hence why I said it could be argued "as they matured"... although by that time they weren't really pushing an envelope that hadn't already been pushed by bands like The Beach Boys with multi-track recording and Phil Spector with his wall of sound. Even Paul McCartney admits that a ton of what came out on Sgt Peppers was inspired by Good Vibrations.

They simply weren't very ground breaking. Again, top 50 in the 20th century in that regard... maybe.

Google the story about how Rubber Soul drove Brian Wilson.

And I see your differentiation between influence and innovation, I can't credit the Beach Boys with widespread influence as, aside from an era of surf music that they influenced and were influenced by, they pretty much stand on an island alone. You'd be hard pressed to come up with a large list that you'd label 'Beach Boys 2.0,' or 'Beach Boys of 80s/90s/some other subgenre' If something sounds like the Beach Boys, 9 times out of 10 is IS the Beach Boys, or offshoot project.

[AustinChief]

Originally Posted by Baby Lee

Google the story about how Rubber Soul drove Brian Wilson.

I know it... but that is "inspire" not innovate. Yes, I know I am changing the direction and defining my own terms.

Nothing about Rubber Soul was particularly new, Brian just felt it was "complete" so he wanted to make his own complete album with all top quality songs. While accomplishing that he also pushed the envelope in the way music was recorded and layered.

[HemiEd]

Originally Posted by AustinChief

To expand on my post.. i would put guys like Charlie Parker, Dave Brubeck, Stan Getz and Duke Ellington above both. If we limit it to pop/rock then Buddy Holly jumps far ahead of both... so does Duane Eddy or Booker T. And of course the Beach Boys.

I'm a big fan of both the Beatles and Elvis but neither did a huge amount to push the envelope. It can be argued that the Beatles did as they matured but again, not nearly as much as so many others.

Yeah, influence is quite subjective, and has to relate to the time period I would think. Charlie Parker and Buddy Holly yes, oh hell yes when it comes to influence.