Quarterback Tournament: Somewhere in the Finals (Final Eight)

[suds79]

Originally Posted by COchief

The other thing that no one seems to be able to factor into the equation is how much of those "loaded" 49ers teams were due to Montana himself elevating everyone around him?

Steve Young helps prove to some extent how good those teams where.

[COchief]

Originally Posted by suds79

Steve Young helps prove to some extent how good those teams where.

He is a legit hall of fame QB smart guy, you need a Dilfer to help you argue your point, Young is no where close and was an amazing QB in his own right.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by suds79

Steve Young helps prove to some extent how good those teams where.

Looks like we're talking to a brick wall.

[COchief]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

Looks like we're talking to a brick wall.

Same could be said for you. Did you actually think about anything or reconsider your stance? I'll make it simple... 4-0 vs 0-4, can you honestly tell me if you had the choice of either QB to start in a SB you would take Elway? Didn't think so.

Also please expand on 55-10 when they met head to head on the biggest stage with both in the prime of their careers?

[suds79]

Originally Posted by COchief

Did you actually think about anything or reconsider your stance? I'll make it simple... 4-0 vs 0-4, can you honestly tell me if you had the choice of either QB to start in a SB you would take Elway? Didn't think so.

I have reconsidered my stance and have since changed my mind.

You ask me a year or so ago who would I take #1? I say Montana.

But then I started to think about it. In a way I feel like Joe Montana gets this Michael Jordan treatment. The kind of treatment where they say "He's the best. Always will be." and get p!ssed if you possibly suggest otherwise.

So I thought about it. If all things being equal (team wise). Who would I take?

Both Clutch? Yep. Both accurate? Yep. Both champions? Yep.

Okay. Give me the guy with arguably the greatest skill set ever.

[COchief]

Originally Posted by suds79

Okay. Give me the guy with arguably the greatest skill set ever.

Let me frame it this way:

Superbowl game, your choice...

P Manning or E Manning
P Manning or T Brady
P Manning or Big Ben

P Manning has a much better skillset than all of the above, but in the SB who is truly the better QB?

[suds79]

Originally Posted by COchief

Let me frame it this way:

Superbowl game, your choice...

P Manning or E Manning
P Manning or T Brady
P Manning or Big Ben

P Manning has a much better skillset than all of the above, but in the SB who is truly the better QB?

agree with where you're going but you missed one important fact. P Manning isn't clutch.

John Elway is. That was in my factors I listed below.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by COchief

Same could be said for you. Did you actually think about anything or reconsider your stance?

Absolutely, I do it ALL THE TIME here.

Originally Posted by COchief

I'll make it simple... 4-0 vs 0-4, can you honestly tell me if you had the choice of either QB to start in a SB you would take Elway? Didn't think so.

That wasn't the question. If I had a team that had already made it to the Super Bowl, I might actually start Montana.

But if I had a team that was mediocre in most aspects and I need to GET TO THE SUPER BOWL in the first place, I'd take Elway.

Originally Posted by COchief

Also please expand on 55-10 when they met head to head on the biggest stage with both in the prime of their careers?

It's a team game. Some of the defenses Montana had in SF were AWESOME.

[Rain Man]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

It's a team game. Some of the defenses Montana had in SF were AWESOME.

In the year where the 49ers beat the Broncos 55-10, the Broncos had the #1 defense in the league.

[Old Dog]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

That wasn't the question. If I had a team that had already made it to the Super Bowl, I might actually start Montana.

Re-read the OP..... you think he was referring to the 2nd preseason game?

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by Old Dog

Re-read the OP..... you think he was referring to the 2nd preseason game?

Probably not. Probably a faulty assumption on my part.

[whoman69]

Definite bias on this poll towards more recent QBs. Sammy Baugh, Otto Graham and Johnny Unitas were head and shoulders better than the next best QB in the league in an era where passing was much more difficult. They defined the position.

[COchief]

Originally Posted by whoman69

Definite bias on this poll towards more recent QBs. Sammy Baugh, Otto Graham and Johnny Unitas were head and shoulders better than the next best QB in the league in an era where passing was much more difficult. They defined the position.

I see your point, but you have to consider eras and athleticism. Baugh, Graham, and Unitas never faced down athletes like Deion Sanders, Ed Reed, and so forth. If you put Dick Butkis in today's NFL would he even make the team?

I truly do understand, I will probably be on a message board arguing Brady was the best QB of all time in 40 years to a bunch of 20 somethings that don't even know who he is. Just not really a discussion you can have unless you're on a AARP message board.

Plus what are we supposed to do, go watch entire seasons of 1950s football? We can really only comment on recent QBs, am I supposed to be able to tell if Terry Bradshaw was a good/great/average qb? I was shitting in my diapers when he was playing.

[whoman69]

Originally Posted by COchief

I see your point, but you have to consider eras and athleticism. Baugh, Graham, and Unitas never faced down athletes like Deion Sanders, Ed Reed, and so forth. If you put Dick Butkis in today's NFL would he even make the team?

I truly do understand, I will probably be on a message board arguing Brady was the best QB of all time in 40 years to a bunch of 20 somethings that don't even know who he is. Just not really a discussion you can have unless you're on a AARP message board.

Plus what are we supposed to do, go watch entire seasons of 1950s football? We can really only comment on recent QBs, am I supposed to be able to tell if Terry Bradshaw was a good/great/average qb? I was shitting in my diapers when he was playing.

Emelen Tunnel, Nightrain Lane. I never saw Baugh or Graham play and only saw Unitas towards the end of his career. You have athletes in every era. Only difference is its a full year job to stay in shape. Butkus is too much a competitor to be held back. Have him work out like today's pros and he would be a much better athlete. I can't see a soft player like Deion playing in the 40s or 50s. The receivers would have shoved him all over the field. Ed Reed make plays with instinct, not athleticism. Can you see Joe Montana holding up in an era when there was no such thing as roughing the passer? Can you see a timing QB like Brady having success when there was no 5 yard chuck rule?

[Rain Man]

Originally Posted by COchief

I see your point, but you have to consider eras and athleticism. Baugh, Graham, and Unitas never faced down athletes like Deion Sanders, Ed Reed, and so forth. If you put Dick Butkis in today's NFL would he even make the team?

I truly do understand, I will probably be on a message board arguing Brady was the best QB of all time in 40 years to a bunch of 20 somethings that don't even know who he is. Just not really a discussion you can have unless you're on a AARP message board.

Plus what are we supposed to do, go watch entire seasons of 1950s football? We can really only comment on recent QBs, am I supposed to be able to tell if Terry Bradshaw was a good/great/average qb? I was shitting in my diapers when he was playing.

It is indeed a tough question, in part due to exposure and in part due to the fact that the game has changed so much. Also, the guys in the 30s and 40s were selling used cars in the offseason and didn't have year-round scientific training and didn't have modern medicine for their injuries.

For my part, I think I base my opinions somewhat on how they compared to others in their era. If a guy was way better than others in his era, I suspect that he would have been way better in this era, too, after getting the benefit of the training/money/medical advances. Based on that, I think guys like Baugh and Otto Graham probably would've been standouts in the modern era to roughly the same degree that they were standouts in their own era.