Offense/Defense (Philosophy based)

[cyborgtable]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

hate the 3-4? All variants? That's weird. That's like saying, "I hate the 4-3".

Huh?

If you mean, I hate the read-and-react 2-gap 3-4, then I get you, and I feel the same way.

I like the one gap, ****-you-here-we-come-just-try-and-stop-us 3-4. Blow up the line of scrimmage and make plays in the backfield, disrupt blocking schemes, stunts and blitzes from anywhere at any time.

The one key to any 3-4 is having a true NT, which might be the rarest beast of all, but it appears we've finally got one so I say we stick with the 3-4.

I can agree with the sentiment but its so hard to find a true NT anymore. If I had to chose a 3-4 it would be Wade Phillips version which is closer to a 5-2 anyway, and started as a group of players built for the tampa-2

[Woodchuck]

Originally Posted by cyborgtable

I can agree with the sentiment but its so hard to find a true NT anymore. If I had to chose a 3-4 it would be Wade Phillips version which is closer to a 5-2 anyway, and started as a group of players built for the tampa-2

I hear you. What is funny is that we looked for a real NT for years and this year there will be one that will probably go in the top #15. John Jenkins from UGA is 6'3" 351 lbs. and has played NT in the 3-4 his entire college career.

I think he is the best experienced true 3-4 NT prospect ever.

[rabblerouser]

Originally Posted by cyborgtable

I can agree with the sentiment but its so hard to find a true NT anymore. If I had to chose a 3-4 it would be Wade Phillips version which is closer to a 5-2 anyway, and started as a group of players built for the tampa-2

that's a classic 1-gap 3-4 - it's the Bum Phillips defense.

See, really there are 3 basic variants :

zone blitz - Dick LeBeau, Vic Fangio, Dom Capers, etc.

2-gap - Romeo, Mangini, Belichick

1-gap - Bum/Wade Phillips, Parcells (late career; used a 4-3 for a time in NE, as well, iirc)

We simply don't have the horses for the 2 gap - we don't have the D-line nor secondary depth. Or the LB depth.

Same goes for the Zone Blitz.

The best chance for this team to compete is to play more a more 'standard' 1-gap; less exotic bs, and let the young cats go play. They're blowing coverages and plain getting beat because they simply can't cover the zone. Period. Elam, Lewis, Brown, Daniels, Arenas...all liabilities in zone coverage. Best to turn the guys up front loose, because otherwise, opposing QBs can just pick those zones apart. Not to mention, our 3 best pass rushers (Hali, Houston, DJ) are constantly in zone coverage, along with one of our best run defenders (Berry, who is probably better suited for a pure SS role instead of the Polamalu-type tweener thing they've been trying to make him do this year.)

EDIT : that being said, Shaun Smith played some great textbook 2-gap technique on Monday night, and that has been missing from the D-line, probably since he's been gone. Another classic case of Piloi being a dipshit for not listening to his coaches.

[cyborgtable]

Originally Posted by Driving Wheel

that's a classic 1-gap 3-4 - it's the Bum Phillips defense.

See, really there are 3 basic variants :

zone blitz - Dick LeBeau, Vic Fangio, Dom Capers, etc.

2-gap - Romeo, Mangini, Belichick

1-gap - Bum/Wade Phillips, Parcells (late career; used a 4-3 for a time in NE, as well, iirc)

We simply don't have the horses for the 2 gap - we don't have the D-line nor secondary depth. Or the LB depth.

Same goes for the Zone Blitz.

The best chance for this team to compete is to play more a more 'standard' 1-gap; less exotic bs, and let the young cats go play. They're blowing coverages and plain getting beat because they simply can't cover the zone. Period. Elam, Lewis, Brown, Daniels, Arenas...all liabilities in zone coverage. Best to turn the guys up front loose, because otherwise, opposing QBs can just pick those zones apart. Not to mention, our 3 best pass rushers (Hali, Houston, DJ) are constantly in zone coverage, along with one of our best run defenders (Berry, who is probably better suited for a pure SS role instead of the Polamalu-type tweener thing they've been trying to make him do this year.)

I can see that especially with a 4-3 over or under front having a linebacker sitting on the line of scrimmage acting essentially as another lineman. I started paying attention in the golden age of the Tampa-2 defense and so prefer that over others but only when played with the same aggressiveness that Monte used.

IMO to many teams took the play and not the understanding of why it worked. Being physical at the line of scrimmage with receivers to change the timing of the passing plays. It had its weaknesses but they blitzed more often than those who took the defense with them ala Herm

[rabblerouser]

Originally Posted by cyborgtable

I can see that especially with a 4-3 over or under front having a linebacker sitting on the line of scrimmage acting essentially as another lineman. I started paying attention in the golden age of the Tampa-2 defense and so prefer that over others but only when played with the same aggressiveness that Monte used.

IMO to many teams took the play and not the understanding of why it worked. Being physical at the line of scrimmage with receivers to change the timing of the passing plays. It had its weaknesses but they blitzed more often than those who took the defense with them ala Herm

the reason that defense worked so well in Tampa was because they had a D-line that had : Warren Sapp, Simeon Rice, Regan Upshow, Chris Hovan, et al, Derrick Brooks at LB, John Lynch at SS and Ronde Barber at CB.

With those guys, they got pressure with 4 man fronts so they didn't HAVE to blitz, which made it that much more effective when they did.

We have a poor man's Derrick Brooks in DJ, and a decent Ronde impersonator in Flowers...but are TOTALLY not equipped to do a 4-3 Tampa - we weren't when we were running one.

This team is defensively a 3-4 team, literally for better or for worse. If we lined up with 4 DL, we'd get eaten alive.

[cyborgtable]

Originally Posted by Driving Wheel

the reason that defense worked so well in Tampa was because they had a D-line that had : Warren Sapp, Simeon Rice, Regan Upshow, Chris Hovan, et al, Derrick Brooks at LB, John Lynch at SS and Ronde Barber at CB.

With those guys, they got pressure with 4 man fronts so they didn't HAVE to blitz, which made it that much more effective when they did.

We have a poor man's Derrick Brooks in DJ, and a decent Ronde impersonator in Flowers...but are TOTALLY not equipped to do a 4-3 Tampa - we weren't when we were running one.

This team is defensively a 3-4 team, literally for better or for worse. If we lined up with 4 DL, we'd get eaten alive.

I understand that, personal and scheme go hand in hand. If the jets ran that scheme we would have portions of the line needed with Coples and Wilkerson but the linebacking core is to slow to stop the deep area between the safeties and the outside flat areas. Teams could go outside on us all game.

The OP was moving forward and IMO your d-line isn't really built to handle either scheme. A pure 1-gap requires attacking style d-lineman which Pioli has gone out of his way to avoid. The linebacking core is nearly there though so yeah your right.

Edit. Just saw the part about when you were running the defense also. I don't think Herm really understood how to teach it or make it work from anything other than a corners point of view because when he ran the same defense with the Jets it wasn't very good either

[Mr. Laz]

Originally Posted by Driving Wheel

the reason that defense worked so well in Tampa was because they had a D-line that had : Warren Sapp, Simeon Rice, Regan Upshow, Chris Hovan, et al, Derrick Brooks at LB, John Lynch at SS and Ronde Barber at CB.

With those guys, they got pressure with 4 man fronts so they didn't HAVE to blitz, which made it that much more effective when they did.

We have a poor man's Derrick Brooks in DJ, and a decent Ronde impersonator in Flowers...but are TOTALLY not equipped to do a 4-3 Tampa - we weren't when we were running one.

This team is defensively a 3-4 team, literally for better or for worse. If we lined up with 4 DL, we'd get eaten alive.

I don't know about that

Hali,Poe,Powe,Houston

Derrick Johnson at MLB

sort of like the Baltimore Ravens D ... 2 big,fat guys to stuff the run and protect the MLB. Hali and Houston going after the Passer.

Not sure Belcher would have a place but adding to 2 Linebackers in one offseason is not that difficult to do.

Berry playing an in-the-box safety

Kendrick Lewis is still not good enough, so we need a complete free safety imo.

[cyborgtable]

Originally Posted by Laz

I don't know about that

Hali,Poe,Powe,Houston

Derrick Johnson at MLB

sort of like the Baltimore Ravens D ... 2 big,fat guys to stuff the run and protect the MLB. Hali and Houston going after the Passer.

Not sure Belcher would have a place but adding to 2 Linebackers in one offseason is not that difficult to do.

Berry playing an in-the-box safety

Kendrick Lewis is still not good enough, so we need a complete free safety imo.

Wasn't Hali drafted to play d-line. I didn't pay much attention to the chiefs then, how was he at it?

[rabblerouser]

Originally Posted by cyborgtable

Wasn't Hali drafted to play d-line. I didn't pay much attention to the chiefs then, how was he at it?

He was decent.

He's an All-World 3-4 OLB.

He'd probably be even better in a 1-gap, like old-school LT...

[rabblerouser]

Originally Posted by Laz

I don't know about that

Hali,Poe,Powe,Houston

Derrick Johnson at MLB

sort of like the Baltimore Ravens D ... 2 big,fat guys to stuff the run and protect the MLB. Hali and Houston going after the Passer.

Not sure Belcher would have a place but adding to 2 Linebackers in one offseason is not that difficult to do.

Berry playing an in-the-box safety

Kendrick Lewis is still not good enough, so we need a complete free safety imo.

Meh, I'd rather keep Hali and Houston standing, rotate Poe and Powe, and go with a hybrid 1 gap.

Hell, you could conceiveably do both...have a 4-3 package, especially for redzone/goalline situations

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Laz

I don't know about that

Hali,Poe,Powe,Houston

Derrick Johnson at MLB

sort of like the Baltimore Ravens D ... 2 big,fat guys to stuff the run and protect the MLB. Hali and Houston going after the Passer.

Not sure Belcher would have a place but adding to 2 Linebackers in one offseason is not that difficult to do.

Berry playing an in-the-box safety

Kendrick Lewis is still not good enough, so we need a complete free safety imo.

Requires a totally different skill set.

You have to LBs who are versatile at stopping both the run and pass, including stud, smart MLB. You have to have 4 defensive linemen who are very, very good at both stopping the run, but also having the pass rush moves to be in passing situations. Our DEs can handle 3-4 pass rush, but will they succeed in a 4-3 where they will have their hands on the ground every play? Will they succeed when they are likely asked to add weight in order to be more effective in the trenches? Can they be consistent run stoppers when on run situations, they will be asked to be win a lot of battles in the trenches?

Can we find DTs who are big but also have the explosion and arsenal of pass rush moves to get to the QB? I don't believe that we have any of these things. Moving to a 4-3 is going to be an ordeal. We have enough pieces for a 3-4. The only place I believe we'll be light in a 1-gap 3-4 is fighting the right DE, which is not hard to find.