Peter King: You have to go back to 1997 to find a draft like this one

[HemiEd]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

You overstate SB caliber.

Trent Green was easily as good at his peak as Joe Flacco is now.

You really think so? I don't, but I guess that is ok, opinions.

Do you think Trent threw as good of a deep ball? As accurate? As composed?

That being said, Flacco winning the SB this year has given a lot of second tier QBs hope, since it wasn't a Manning or Luck caliber getting the win.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by HemiEd

You really think so? I don't, but I guess that is ok, opinions.

Do you think Trent threw as good of a deep ball? As accurate? As composed?

That being said, Flacco winning the SB this year has given a lot of second tier QBs hope, since it wasn't a Manning or Luck caliber getting the win.

Deep ball? No. I've said for quite some time that Flacco throws among the best deep balls in the league.

I think Green was far more accurate on intermediate routes though, and yeah, I definitely think he was as composed. He was a better decisionmaker and ran a far more complicated offense than I think Flacco's capable of running.

They're different, but in the end I think Green was a more productive and versatile QB than Flacco is now.

[HemiEd]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Deep ball? No. I've said for quite some time that Flacco throws among the best deep balls in the league.

I think Green was far more accurate on intermediate routes though, and yeah, I definitely think he was as composed. He was a better decisionmaker and ran a far more complicated offense than I think Flacco's capable of running.

They're different, but in the end I think Green was a more productive and versatile QB than Flacco is now.

That is a well thought out post, and you make me re-think some of my position. It is just hard for me to get it out my mind seeing him overthrow balls into the ground when under pressure.

That offense was very complicated, and that is a great point. But Trent had the luxury of the best running attack this team has ever had, and among the very ever.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by HemiEd

That is a well thought out post, and you make me re-think some of my position. It is just hard for me to get it out my mind seeing him overthrow balls into the ground when under pressure.

That offense was very complicated, and that is a great point. But Trent had the luxury of the best running attack this team has ever had, and among the very ever.

He also had 2 HoFers and 2 more perennial All Pros in front of him.

That was one of the best offensive lines in the history of football.

That being said, Trent had a run with the Rams in 2000 that was literally one of the best stretches of games I've ever seen out of NFL QB.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by HemiEd

That is a well thought out post, and you make me re-think some of my position. It is just hard for me to get it out my mind seeing him overthrow balls into the ground when under pressure.

That offense was very complicated, and that is a great point. But Trent had the luxury of the best running attack this team has ever had, and among the very ever.

Trent Green flawlessly executed the Coryell offense under Cam Cameron, yet Flacco struggled for years in that same offense. It wasn't until Cameron was fired and replaced with Jim Caldwell that Flacco finally became the first rounder that the Ravens envisioned when they chose him in 2008.

I think that Trent was a cerebral as a QB you could find, in any era, and it's a damn shame that Rodney Harrison robbed him of what could have been an even better career.

[HemiEd]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

He also had 2 HoFers and 2 more perennial All Pros in front of him.

That was one of the best offensive lines in the history of football.

That being said, Trent had a run with the Rams in 2000 that was literally one of the best stretches of games I've ever seen out of NFL QB.

Without question. To me, the biggest tragedy in that whole offense was Priest getting injured by Merriman. To me, Priest was the key to that offense behind that line.

In no way did I intend to take anything away from Trent's intelligence and character.

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Trent Green flawlessly executed the Coryell offense under Cam Cameron, yet Flacco struggled for years in that same offense. It wasn't until Cameron was fired and replaced with Jim Caldwell that Flacco finally became the first rounder that the Ravens envisioned when they chose him in 2008.

I think that Trent was a cerebral as a QB you could find, in any era, and it's a damn shame that Rodney Harrison robbed him of what could have been an even better career.

Flawless, really?

Don't you think some of the Flacco success is due to him maturing in the NFL, after 4 years?

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by HemiEd

Flawless, really?

Yeah, absolutely. He was pretty amazing under Norv and again under Martz. He was a master of the Coryell offense and had it not been for the knee injury that plagued him for two seasons, he most likely wouldn't have been a Chief.

Originally Posted by HemiEd

Don't you think some of the Flacco success is due to him maturing in the NFL, after 4 years?

Actually, Flacco just completed his fifth year in NFL. But the reason I disagree is because under Cameron, he never seemed comfortable. The Ravens had done an excellent job of providing a very good offensive line, a excellent running back in Ray Rice and very good perimeter players in Boldin, Smith, Pitta and Dickson. But, he continued to struggle and put his game together until after Cameron was fired.

At that point, Caldwell simplified the offense, installed plays from his days as Peyton Manning's head coach and OC and called more long balls to Smith and Boldin. Instead of the quick timing plays, shifts and verbage, Caldwell used Flacco's best attribute, his big arm, and the Ravens tore it up in December, January and of course, February.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Yeah, absolutely. He was pretty amazing under Norv and again under Martz. He was a master of the Coryell offense and had it not been for the knee injury that plagued him for two seasons, he most likely wouldn't have been a Chief.

I'll say it again.

Trent Green had a 5 or 6 game stretch with the Rams in 2000 that was one of the best I'VE EVER SEEN.

I'm gonna go find those stats.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by HemiEd

That is a well thought out post, and you make me re-think some of my position. It is just hard for me to get it out my mind seeing him overthrow balls into the ground when under pressure.

That offense was very complicated, and that is a great point. But Trent had the luxury of the best running attack this team has ever had, and among the very ever.

Well it's important to separate TrINT from Trent. He got himself so far behind the 8-ball with the fanbase here after that first season that yeah, it's easy to remember those balls got on top of and hammered into the turf.

But when he was at his apex, those 4 years from 2002-2005, man he was precise. In those 4 years he averaged damn near 8 yds/attempt. And that was when only guys like Manning and Brady were putting up numbers like that. To put it into perspective, even with weapons like Boldin and Torrey Smith, Flacco's never averaged better than 7.4 YPA and on his career is averaging 7.1. That's even with the fact that he's a very good downfield passer.

Yeah, the system helped, but even the YAC yards were a result of the fact that he was so good at hitting guys in stride and frankly he just didn't miss very often.

For a guy with a sub-standard arm to be able to hit at 8 yds/attempt means that he was firing a hell of a grouping. He was putting it in the right spot almost every time.

History, if anything, has been extremely unkind to Trent Green. We don't realize how good we had it with that guy over those 4 seasons and I think that is almost exclusively because of how quickly people soured on him in 2001.

[HemiEd]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Well it's important to separate TrINT from Trent. He got himself so far behind the 8-ball with the fanbase here after that first season that yeah, it's easy to remember those balls got on top of and hammered into the turf.

But when he was at his apex, those 4 years from 2002-2005, man he was precise. In those 4 years he averaged damn near 8 yds/attempt. And that was when only guys like Manning and Brady were putting up numbers like that. To put it into perspective, even with weapons like Boldin and Torrey Smith, Flacco's never averaged better than 7.4 YPA and on his career is averaging 7.1. That's even with the fact that he's a very good downfield passer.

Yeah, the system helped, but even the YAC yards were a result of the fact that he was so good at hitting guys in stride and frankly he just didn't miss very often.

For a guy with a sub-standard arm to be able to hit at 8 yds/attempt means that he was firing a hell of a grouping. He was putting it in the right spot almost every time.

History, if anything, has been extremely unkind to Trent Green. We don't realize how good we had it with that guy over those 4 seasons and I think that is almost exclusively because of how quickly people soured on him in 2001.

Good points, again. I for one didn't sour on him 2001 though, as he was coming back from a horrible injury.

I just never really felt like he had the tools to carry the team. I felt he was "good enough" to be competitive. Once again, a recycled Qb, that was pretty darn good.

I am sick and tired of settling for that, after what seems like an eternal line of them. I want this team to go "all in" with a pick of their own and develop him. No more Alex Smiths, Trent Greens, Dave Kreigs, Bonos, Grbacs, Huards, Cassels, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

I am so sick of it, that if they marched Stanzi out there and went 0-16, it would be refreshing to me.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by HemiEd

I am sick and tired of settling for that, after what seems like an eternal line of them. I want this team to go "all in" with a pick of their own and develop him. No more Alex Smiths, Trent Greens, Dave Kreigs, Bonos, Grbacs, Huards, Cassels, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

See, that stuff doesn't bother me. If the Chiefs win and win in the playoffs, I couldn't care less how the QB was acquired.

Now, if the Chiefs need a QB and deliberately pass on highly rated guy, that's a different story. But if Matt Flynn or Nick Foles or Alex Smith won a Super Bowl as a Chiefs, I'd be thrilled.

Originally Posted by HemiEd

I am so sick of it, that if they marched Stanzi out there and went 0-16, it would be refreshing to me.

You, my friend, would likely be on the only person happy in that scenario.

[HemiEd]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

See, that stuff doesn't bother me. If the Chiefs win and win in the playoffs, I couldn't care less how the QB was acquired.

Now, if the Chiefs need a QB and deliberately pass on highly rated guy, that's a different story. But if Matt Flynn or Nick Foles or Alex Smith won a Super Bowl as a Chiefs, I'd be thrilled.



You, my friend, would likely be on the only person happy in that scenario.

Well for the last three years we have seen HCs marching out crap behind center, trying to eeek out a win to save their ****ing job. Not giving Stanzi a legit shot.

Yeah, I am beyond the recycled QB give a **** meter, seriously. Nobody was more shocked than I when the Chiefs didn't end up with Peyton Manning. The first time I ever got really upset with the Chiefs was the Montana trade, and it has been going on to varying degrees ever since.

I will probably take a few years off if they don't draft one this year.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

See, that stuff doesn't bother me. If the Chiefs win and win in the playoffs, I couldn't care less how the QB was acquired.

Now, if the Chiefs need a QB and deliberately pass on highly rated guy, that's a different story. But if Matt Flynn or Nick Foles or Alex Smith won a Super Bowl as a Chiefs, I'd be thrilled.

I know you and I differ on this but the reason I care about how we acquire the QB is because I believe it is a factor on whether or not we can win in the first place.

The teams that are winning and winning regularly have drafted and developed their own guys.

In the 30 years or so I've been a fan, I've seen the Matt Flynn/Nick Foles/Alex Smith's come through KC. Over and over and over. I know how the story ends.

Is it completely rational or objective? No. If I were capable of looking at this in a 100% rational manner, I would have given up on this crap franchise YEARS ago.