New Pope Is Former Hitler Youth - Page 10

|Zach| · 04-19-2005, 12:06 PM

I thought this was a little strange.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...2667_1,00.html

Papal hopeful is a former Hitler Youth
Justin Sparks, Munich, John Follain and Christopher Morgan, Rome
THE wartime past of a leading German contender to succeed John Paul II may return to haunt him as cardinals begin voting in the Sistine Chapel tomorrow to choose a new leader for 1 billion Catholics.

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, whose strong defence of Catholic orthodoxy has earned him a variety of sobriquets — including “the enforcer”, “the panzer cardinal” and “God’s rottweiler” — is expected to poll around 40 votes in the first ballot as conservatives rally behind him.

Although far short of the requisite two-thirds majority of the 115 votes, this would almost certainly give Ratzinger, 78 yesterday, an early lead in the voting. Liberals have yet to settle on a rival candidate who could come close to his tally.

Unknown to many members of the church, however, Ratzinger’s past includes brief membership of the Hitler Youth movement and wartime service with a German army anti- aircraft unit.

Although there is no suggestion that he was involved in any atrocities, his service may be contrasted by opponents with the attitude of John Paul II, who took part in anti-Nazi theatre performances in his native Poland and in 1986 became the first pope to visit Rome’s synagogue.

“John Paul was hugely appreciated for what he did for and with the Jewish people,” said Lord Janner, head of the Holocaust Education Trust, who is due to attend ceremonies today to mark the 60th anniversary of the liberation of the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp.

“If they were to appoint someone who was on the other side in the war, he would start at a disadvantage, although it wouldn’t mean in the long run he wouldn’t be equally understanding of the concerns of the Jewish world.”

The son of a rural Bavarian police officer, Ratzinger was six when Hitler came to power in 1933. His father, also called Joseph, was an anti-Nazi whose attempts to rein in Hitler’s Brown Shirts forced the family to move home several times.

In 1937 Ratzinger’s father retired and the family moved to Traunstein, a staunchly Catholic town in Bavaria close to the Führer’s mountain retreat in Berchtesgaden. He joined the Hitler Youth aged 14, shortly after membership was made compulsory in 1941.

He quickly won a dispensation on account of his training at a seminary. “Ratzinger was only briefly a member of the Hitler Youth and not an enthusiastic one,” concluded John Allen, his biographer.

Two years later Ratzinger was enrolled in an anti-aircraft unit that protected a BMW factory making aircraft engines. The workforce included slaves from Dachau concentration camp.

Ratzinger has insisted he never took part in combat or fired a shot — adding that his gun was not even loaded — because of a badly infected finger. He was sent to Hungary, where he set up tank traps and saw Jews being herded to death camps. He deserted in April 1944 and spent a few weeks in a prisoner of war camp.

He has since said that although he was opposed to the Nazi regime, any open resistance would have been futile — comments echoed this weekend by his elder brother Georg, a retired priest ordained along with the cardinal in 1951.

“Resistance was truly impossible,” Georg Ratzinger said. “Before we were conscripted, one of our teachers said we should fight and become heroic Nazis and another told us not to worry as only one soldier in a thousand was killed. But neither of us ever used a rifle against the enemy.”

Some locals in Traunstein, like Elizabeth Lohner, 84, whose brother-in-law was sent to Dachau as a conscientious objector, dismiss such suggestions. “It was possible to resist, and those people set an example for others,” she said. “The Ratzingers were young and had made a different choice.”

In 1937 another family a few hundred yards away in Traunstein hid Hans Braxenthaler, a local resistance fighter. SS troops repeatedly searched homes in the area looking for the fugitive and his fellow conspirators.

“When he was betrayed and the Nazis came for him, Braxenthaler shot himself because he knew he couldn’t escape,” said Frieda Meyer, 82, Ratzinger’s neighbour and childhood friend. “Even though they had tortured him in Dachau concentration camp he refused to give up his resistance efforts.”

Despite question marks over Ratzinger’s wartime conduct, the main obstacle to his prospects in the conclave — the assembly of cardinals to elect the new pope — is the conservative stance he has adopted as guardian of Catholic orthodoxy since John Paul named him to head the congregation for the doctrine of the faith in 1981.

His condemnations are legion — of women priests, married priests, dissident theologians and homosexuals, whom he has declared to be suffering from an “objective disorder”.

He upset many Jews with a statement in 1987 that Jewish history and scripture reach fulfilment only in Christ — a position denounced by critics as “theological anti-semitism”. He made more enemies among other religions in 2000, when he signed a document, Dominus Jesus, in which he argued: “Only in the Catholic church is there eternal salvation”.

Some of his staunchest critics are in Germany. A recent poll in Der Spiegel, the news magazine, showed opponents of a Ratzinger papacy outnumbered supporters by 36% to 29%.

As one western cardinal who was in two minds about him put it: “He would probably be a great pope, but I have no idea how I would explain his election back home.”

One liberal theologian,when asked what he thought of a Ratzinger papacy, was more direct: “It fills me with horror.”

Logical · 04-19-2005, 07:49 PM

I hear the new Pope is Catholic, can you fucking believe it?

Brock · 04-19-2005, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad Logicslav

I hear the new Pope is Catholic, can you fucking believe it?

Does he shit in the woods too?

Bootlegged · 04-19-2005, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZachKC

So if there are say 15 pope related stories on a given site and one is about the connection...it is still the cursed liberal media. Right? Because most dont have the story right now and the ones that do are sandwhiching it with information and glowing priase.

This is pointless, so it is my last post on this tonight. My original post was about Yahoo news picking up the story and that it didn't take long for the media to run with it. When an entire show on a major cable network is dedicated to this story, I think it qualifies. Justify your sniping all you want, damn the facts.

|Zach| · 04-19-2005, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lattimer

This is pointless, so it is my last post on this tonight. My original post was about Yahoo news picking up the story and that it didn't take long for the media to run with it. When an entire show on a major cable network is dedicated to this story, I think it qualifies. Justify your sniping all you want, damn the facts.

So what I gave you were not facts?

**Mr. Kotter** · 04-19-2005, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pitt Gorilla

I see. So he wasn't a Hitler Youth?

No more than youth in Cuba are members of the Cuban Communist Party, simply because they are forced into being members of a "Communist" School.

**Mr. Kotter** · 04-19-2005, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad Logicslav

The headline is factual, your interpretation of it is your own. I did not take it in a negative light. I found the story very interesting because I know nothing about the man and his background. There is no way that being part of the Hitler Youth did not help shape who the man became, most likely in a positive way. I would say it is similar to John Paul II experience with the Communist regime in Poland. It changed the way he viewed things and world events.

YOUR reasonable perspective is not the one being (wink...wink....elbow...elbow....) "Heh....he was a NAZI" with no explanation or context being offered by some.

Logical · 04-19-2005, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

No more than youth in Cuba are members of the Cuban Communist Party, simply because they are forced into being members of a "Communist" School.

While I agree that it was the common thing to be part of the Hitler youth, if you are saying no one resisted or did not join I would say you are probably wrong.

Logical · 04-19-2005, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

YOUR reasonable perspective is not the one being (wink...wink....elbow...elbow....) "Heh....he was a NAZI" with no explanation or context being offered by some.

I will admit I did not read this entire thread, so I may appear to be defending someone or something I did not intend.

**Mr. Kotter** · 04-19-2005, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad Logicslav

While I agree that it was the common thing to be part of the Hitler youth, if you are saying no one resisted or did not join I would say you are probably wrong.

If they resisted or refused to join, they were sent to "work" camps--prison and "re-education" brainwashing camps. It was much preferable to "play along" and resist as a part of the underground, where possible....though that was quite limited too, due to the ruthless and brutal nature of Nazi rule. Of course, you already know that...

Logical · 04-19-2005, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

If they resisted or refused to join, they were sent to "work" camps--prison and "re-education" brainwashing camps. It was much preferable to "play along" and resist as a part of the underground, where possible....though that was quite limited too, due to the ruthless and brutal nature of Nazi rule. Of course, you already know that...

Am I mistaken or did not some people emigrate out of Germany early on? If so I would say that was a very effective form of resistance.

**Mr. Kotter** · 04-19-2005, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad Logicslav

Am I mistaken or did not some people emigrate out of Germany early on? If so I would say that was a very effective form of resistance.

VERY early on, yes. Emigration though an option, as you know, is not at all an easy choice for those with families ties, property, jobs, and HOPE that Hitler would "go away." Once it became clear that that Hitler was NOT going away, millions of Germans were faced with the choice of staying, or attempting to flee....which would result, if caught, in their imprisonment (if they were lucky) or death. If they succeeded in escaping, family members, left behind, would have been "made examples of."

The vast majority of Americans would have done no different; suggestions otherwise, are arrogant wishful thinking and bravado.

Tyrants and dictators have ruthless and despicable means of "coercing" complicity. You and I agree, if possible....fleeing would have been preferable. However, that many were unable in good conscience to do so, is understandably tragic.

Taco John · 04-19-2005, 08:18 PM

So what's the difference between this Hitler Youth stuff and the program that is being whispered about where our own youth are forced into service for two years out of high school? Other than the Hitler part, of course... Is it the same concept? Run everyone through the program, and they come out better people?

Logical · 04-19-2005, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

VERY early on, yes. Emigration though an option, as you know, is not at all an easy choice for those with families ties, property, jobs, and HOPE that Hitler would "go away." Once it became clear that that Hitler was NOT going away, millions of Germans were faced with the choice of staying, or attempting to flee....which would result, if caught, in their imprisonment (if they were lucky) or death. If they succeeded in escaping, family members, left behind, would have been "made examples of."

The vast majority of Americans would have done no different; suggestions otherwise, are arrogant wishful thinking and bravado.

Tyrants and dictators have ruthless and despicable means of "coercing" complicity. You and I agree, if possible....fleeing would have been preferable. However, that many were unable in good conscience to do so, is understandably tragic.

You are absolutely correct Mr Kotter, well said.

**Mr. Kotter** · 04-19-2005, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taco John

So what's the difference between this Hitler Youth stuff and the program that is being whispered about where our own youth are forced into service for two years out of high school? Other than the Hitler part, of course... Is it the same concept? Run everyone through the program, and they come out better people?

"Forced into service"....please educate me.

Logical · 04-19-2005, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taco John

So what's the difference between this Hitler Youth stuff and the program that is being whispered about where our own youth are forced into service for two years out of high school? Other than the Hitler part, of course... Is it the same concept? Run everyone through the program, and they come out better people?

I agree that the talk is potentially scary stuff. Mandatory military service is done by quite a few countries, but the results are usually not favorable in time if the country is not perceived as threatened by war. I would imagine that any sort of forced labor (and lets face it) two years of forced service amounts to forced labor, would be negative.

04-19-2005, 12:06 PM
\|Zach\| For The Glory Of The City Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Kansas City Casino cash: $5166768	New Pope Is Former Hitler Youth I thought this was a little strange. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...2667_1,00.html Papal hopeful is a former Hitler Youth Justin Sparks, Munich, John Follain and Christopher Morgan, Rome THE wartime past of a leading German contender to succeed John Paul II may return to haunt him as cardinals begin voting in the Sistine Chapel tomorrow to choose a new leader for 1 billion Catholics. Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, whose strong defence of Catholic orthodoxy has earned him a variety of sobriquets — including “the enforcer”, “the panzer cardinal” and “God’s rottweiler” — is expected to poll around 40 votes in the first ballot as conservatives rally behind him. Although far short of the requisite two-thirds majority of the 115 votes, this would almost certainly give Ratzinger, 78 yesterday, an early lead in the voting. Liberals have yet to settle on a rival candidate who could come close to his tally. Unknown to many members of the church, however, Ratzinger’s past includes brief membership of the Hitler Youth movement and wartime service with a German army anti- aircraft unit. Although there is no suggestion that he was involved in any atrocities, his service may be contrasted by opponents with the attitude of John Paul II, who took part in anti-Nazi theatre performances in his native Poland and in 1986 became the first pope to visit Rome’s synagogue. “John Paul was hugely appreciated for what he did for and with the Jewish people,” said Lord Janner, head of the Holocaust Education Trust, who is due to attend ceremonies today to mark the 60th anniversary of the liberation of the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp. “If they were to appoint someone who was on the other side in the war, he would start at a disadvantage, although it wouldn’t mean in the long run he wouldn’t be equally understanding of the concerns of the Jewish world.” The son of a rural Bavarian police officer, Ratzinger was six when Hitler came to power in 1933. His father, also called Joseph, was an anti-Nazi whose attempts to rein in Hitler’s Brown Shirts forced the family to move home several times. In 1937 Ratzinger’s father retired and the family moved to Traunstein, a staunchly Catholic town in Bavaria close to the Führer’s mountain retreat in Berchtesgaden. He joined the Hitler Youth aged 14, shortly after membership was made compulsory in 1941. He quickly won a dispensation on account of his training at a seminary. “Ratzinger was only briefly a member of the Hitler Youth and not an enthusiastic one,” concluded John Allen, his biographer. Two years later Ratzinger was enrolled in an anti-aircraft unit that protected a BMW factory making aircraft engines. The workforce included slaves from Dachau concentration camp. Ratzinger has insisted he never took part in combat or fired a shot — adding that his gun was not even loaded — because of a badly infected finger. He was sent to Hungary, where he set up tank traps and saw Jews being herded to death camps. He deserted in April 1944 and spent a few weeks in a prisoner of war camp. He has since said that although he was opposed to the Nazi regime, any open resistance would have been futile — comments echoed this weekend by his elder brother Georg, a retired priest ordained along with the cardinal in 1951. “Resistance was truly impossible,” Georg Ratzinger said. “Before we were conscripted, one of our teachers said we should fight and become heroic Nazis and another told us not to worry as only one soldier in a thousand was killed. But neither of us ever used a rifle against the enemy.” Some locals in Traunstein, like Elizabeth Lohner, 84, whose brother-in-law was sent to Dachau as a conscientious objector, dismiss such suggestions. “It was possible to resist, and those people set an example for others,” she said. “The Ratzingers were young and had made a different choice.” In 1937 another family a few hundred yards away in Traunstein hid Hans Braxenthaler, a local resistance fighter. SS troops repeatedly searched homes in the area looking for the fugitive and his fellow conspirators. “When he was betrayed and the Nazis came for him, Braxenthaler shot himself because he knew he couldn’t escape,” said Frieda Meyer, 82, Ratzinger’s neighbour and childhood friend. “Even though they had tortured him in Dachau concentration camp he refused to give up his resistance efforts.” Despite question marks over Ratzinger’s wartime conduct, the main obstacle to his prospects in the conclave — the assembly of cardinals to elect the new pope — is the conservative stance he has adopted as guardian of Catholic orthodoxy since John Paul named him to head the congregation for the doctrine of the faith in 1981. His condemnations are legion — of women priests, married priests, dissident theologians and homosexuals, whom he has declared to be suffering from an “objective disorder”. He upset many Jews with a statement in 1987 that Jewish history and scripture reach fulfilment only in Christ — a position denounced by critics as “theological anti-semitism”. He made more enemies among other religions in 2000, when he signed a document, Dominus Jesus, in which he argued: “Only in the Catholic church is there eternal salvation”. Some of his staunchest critics are in Germany. A recent poll in Der Spiegel, the news magazine, showed opponents of a Ratzinger papacy outnumbered supporters by 36% to 29%. As one western cardinal who was in two minds about him put it: “He would probably be a great pope, but I have no idea how I would explain his election back home.” One liberal theologian,when asked what he thought of a Ratzinger papacy, was more direct: “It fills me with horror.”
Posts: 53,496

04-19-2005, 07:49 PM	#136
Logical Screw U if U can't take a joke Join Date: Aug 2000 Casino cash: $10004900	I hear the new Pope is Catholic, can you fucking believe it?
Posts: 31,579

04-19-2005, 08:18 PM	#147
Taco John Sapere Aude Join Date: Jun 2001 Casino cash: $3217937	So what's the difference between this Hitler Youth stuff and the program that is being whispered about where our own youth are forced into service for two years out of high school? Other than the Hitler part, of course... Is it the same concept? Run everyone through the program, and they come out better people? __________________ Ehyeh asher ehyeh. Donger's Razor: "The most establishment-friendly explanation that gives leftist and neocon politicians the most amount of cover is the only possible explanation, even when gaping holes and leaps of logic are required to get there."
Posts: 78,140