If Jesus were to ever return... how would anyone know it was him? - Page 10

**jAZ** · 02-20-2007, 12:02 AM

I'm pretty sure this guy isn't it, but there's a sizeable group that seems to think he is. Seems like all you have to do is be believable and with enough followers... you create your own "reality".

If that's the case, how in the world would we ever know objectively that someone is Jesus returned?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/16/mia...her/index.html

Pastor with 666 tattoo claims to be divine
POSTED: 2:08 p.m. EST, February 19, 2007

By John Zarrella and Patrick Oppmann
CNN

MIAMI, Florida (CNN) -- The minister has the number 666 tattooed on his arm.

But Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda is not your typical minister. De Jesus, or "Daddy" as his thousands of followers call him, does not merely pray to God: He says he is God.

"The spirit that is in me is the same spirit that was in Jesus of Nazareth," de Jesus says.

De Jesus' claims of divinity have angered Christian leaders, who say he is a fake. Religious experts say he may be something much more dangerous, a cult leader who really believes he is God. (Watch followers get 666 tattoos for their leader )

"He's in their heads, he's inside the heads of those people," says Prof. Daniel Alvarez, a religion expert at Florida International University who has debated some of de Jesus' followers.

"De Jesus speaks with a kind of conviction that makes me consider him more like David Koresh or Jim Jones."

Is de Jesus really a cult leader like David Koresh, who died with more than 70 of his Branch Davidian followers in a fiery end to a standoff with federal authorities, or Jim Jones, the founder of the Peoples Temple who committed mass suicide with 900 followers in 1978?

Prophets 'spoke to me'
De Jesus and his believers say their church -- "Creciendo en Gracia," Spanish for "Growing in grace" -- is misunderstood. Followers of the movement say they have proof that their minister is divine and that their church will one day soon be a major faith in the world.

But even de Jesus concedes that he is an unlikely leader of a church that claims thousands of members in more than 30 countries.

De Jesus, 61, grew up poor in Puerto Rico. He says he served stints in prison there for petty theft and says he was a heroin addict.

De Jesus says he learned he was Jesus reincarnate when he was visited in a dream by angels.

"The prophets, they spoke about me. It took me time to learn that, but I am what they were expecting, what they have been expecting for 2,000 years," de Jesus says.

The church that he began building 20 years ago in Miami resembles no other:

Followers have protested Christian churches in Miami and Latin America, disrupting services and smashing crosses and statues of Jesus.

De Jesus preaches there is no devil and no sin. His followers, he says, literally can do no wrong in God's eyes.

The church calls itself the "Government of God on Earth" and uses a seal similar to the United States.

Doing God's work with a Lexus and Rolex
If Creciendo en Gracia is an atypical religious group, de Jesus also does not fit the mold of the average church leader. De Jesus flouts traditional vows of poverty.

He says he has a church-paid salary of $136,000 but lives more lavishly than that. During an interview, he showed off a diamond-encrusted Rolex to a CNN crew and said he has three just like them. He travels in armored Lexuses and BMWs, he says, for his safety. All are gifts from his devoted followers.

And what about the tattoo of 666 on his arm?

Although it's a number usually associated with Satan, not the son of God, de Jesus says that 666 and the Antichrist are, like him, misunderstood.

The Antichrist is not the devil, de Jesus tells his congregation; he's the being who replaces Jesus on Earth.

"Antichrist is the best person in the world," he says. "Antichrist means don't put your eyes on Jesus because Jesus of Nazareth wasn't a Christian. Antichrist means do not put your eyes on Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Put it on Jesus after the cross."

And de Jesus says that means him.

So far, de Jesus says that his flock hasn't been scared off by his claims of being the Antichrist. In a show of the sway he holds over the group, 30 members of his congregation Tuesday went to a tattoo parlor to have 666 also permanently etched onto their skin.

He may wield influence over them, but his followers say don't expect them to go the way of people who believed in David Koresh and Jim Jones. Just by finding de Jesus, they say, they have achieved their purpose.

"If somebody tells us drink some Kool-Aid and we'll go to heaven, that's not true. We are already in heavenly places," follower Martita Roca told CNN after having 666 tattooed onto her ankle.

El Jefe · 02-23-2007, 02:59 PM

JohnnyV13, oh no look someone remebers some stuff from Sunday School. By the way I never cited any scripture, I do agree people throw that stuff around and have no idea what the true context of the verses mean. I havent once made the scripture say what I wanted it to say, I have never taken scripture outta text so I dont know why you keep refering to that point. JohnnyV13 you have made some points I agree with about people having varing opinions on the meaning of verses, but I have not said anything or quoted anything. So your whole long essay is essential garabage to me, unless you are making it for others to read.

greg63 · 02-23-2007, 03:05 PM

kcchiefsfanGoLJ?

I think your username is entirely too short.

Well at least it's more imaginable then greg63.

El Jefe · 02-23-2007, 03:08 PM

Yeah I know I have a lot of different sites I am on and I have used that the most so I can remember it easier. Although I only go on two sites, this one and Ohio Game and Fish. The rest I just sign up and never use LOL.

Pitt Gorilla · 02-23-2007, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcchiefsfanGoLJ

Who is Nathan Thurm?

El Jefe · 02-23-2007, 03:13 PM

Pitt Gorilla, I still dont have a clue, is he off a movie or something?

Jenson71 · 02-23-2007, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcchiefsfanGoLJ

Pitt Gorilla, I still dont have a clue, is he off a movie or something?

A movie? I never said that! YOU SAID THAT! You think I DIDN'T KNOW THAT?!?!?

(martin short character off SNL)

Redrum_69 · 02-23-2007, 03:21 PM

Dont you have a tranny to be working on...or are we to interpet that your dad is a tranny and you post here because your mom is whoring out on the street corner and you cant handle the fact that you are just 19 years old, and a born again Christian.

El Jefe · 02-23-2007, 03:48 PM

Jenson71, oh ok.

Jenson71 · 02-23-2007, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcchiefsfanGoLJ

Jenson71, oh ok.

02-20-2007, 12:02 AM
jAZ Supporter Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Tucson, AZ Casino cash: $9847493	If Jesus were to ever return... how would anyone know it was him? I'm pretty sure this guy isn't it, but there's a sizeable group that seems to think he is. Seems like all you have to do is be believable and with enough followers... you create your own "reality". If that's the case, how in the world would we ever know objectively that someone is Jesus returned? http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/16/mia...her/index.html Pastor with 666 tattoo claims to be divine POSTED: 2:08 p.m. EST, February 19, 2007 By John Zarrella and Patrick Oppmann CNN MIAMI, Florida (CNN) -- The minister has the number 666 tattooed on his arm. But Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda is not your typical minister. De Jesus, or "Daddy" as his thousands of followers call him, does not merely pray to God: He says he is God. "The spirit that is in me is the same spirit that was in Jesus of Nazareth," de Jesus says. De Jesus' claims of divinity have angered Christian leaders, who say he is a fake. Religious experts say he may be something much more dangerous, a cult leader who really believes he is God. (Watch followers get 666 tattoos for their leader ) "He's in their heads, he's inside the heads of those people," says Prof. Daniel Alvarez, a religion expert at Florida International University who has debated some of de Jesus' followers. "De Jesus speaks with a kind of conviction that makes me consider him more like David Koresh or Jim Jones." Is de Jesus really a cult leader like David Koresh, who died with more than 70 of his Branch Davidian followers in a fiery end to a standoff with federal authorities, or Jim Jones, the founder of the Peoples Temple who committed mass suicide with 900 followers in 1978? Prophets 'spoke to me' De Jesus and his believers say their church -- "Creciendo en Gracia," Spanish for "Growing in grace" -- is misunderstood. Followers of the movement say they have proof that their minister is divine and that their church will one day soon be a major faith in the world. But even de Jesus concedes that he is an unlikely leader of a church that claims thousands of members in more than 30 countries. De Jesus, 61, grew up poor in Puerto Rico. He says he served stints in prison there for petty theft and says he was a heroin addict. De Jesus says he learned he was Jesus reincarnate when he was visited in a dream by angels. "The prophets, they spoke about me. It took me time to learn that, but I am what they were expecting, what they have been expecting for 2,000 years," de Jesus says. The church that he began building 20 years ago in Miami resembles no other: Followers have protested Christian churches in Miami and Latin America, disrupting services and smashing crosses and statues of Jesus. De Jesus preaches there is no devil and no sin. His followers, he says, literally can do no wrong in God's eyes. The church calls itself the "Government of God on Earth" and uses a seal similar to the United States. Doing God's work with a Lexus and Rolex If Creciendo en Gracia is an atypical religious group, de Jesus also does not fit the mold of the average church leader. De Jesus flouts traditional vows of poverty. He says he has a church-paid salary of $136,000 but lives more lavishly than that. During an interview, he showed off a diamond-encrusted Rolex to a CNN crew and said he has three just like them. He travels in armored Lexuses and BMWs, he says, for his safety. All are gifts from his devoted followers. And what about the tattoo of 666 on his arm? Although it's a number usually associated with Satan, not the son of God, de Jesus says that 666 and the Antichrist are, like him, misunderstood. The Antichrist is not the devil, de Jesus tells his congregation; he's the being who replaces Jesus on Earth. "Antichrist is the best person in the world," he says. "Antichrist means don't put your eyes on Jesus because Jesus of Nazareth wasn't a Christian. Antichrist means do not put your eyes on Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Put it on Jesus after the cross." And de Jesus says that means him. So far, de Jesus says that his flock hasn't been scared off by his claims of being the Antichrist. In a show of the sway he holds over the group, 30 members of his congregation Tuesday went to a tattoo parlor to have 666 also permanently etched onto their skin. He may wield influence over them, but his followers say don't expect them to go the way of people who believed in David Koresh and Jim Jones. Just by finding de Jesus, they say, they have achieved their purpose. "If somebody tells us drink some Kool-Aid and we'll go to heaven, that's not true. We are already in heavenly places," follower Martita Roca told CNN after having 666 tattooed onto her ankle.
Posts: 24,799

02-23-2007, 02:59 PM	#136
El Jefe Don't tread on me. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Where the peaches grow Casino cash: $9030572	JohnnyV13, oh no look someone remebers some stuff from Sunday School. By the way I never cited any scripture, I do agree people throw that stuff around and have no idea what the true context of the verses mean. I havent once made the scripture say what I wanted it to say, I have never taken scripture outta text so I dont know why you keep refering to that point. JohnnyV13 you have made some points I agree with about people having varing opinions on the meaning of verses, but I have not said anything or quoted anything. So your whole long essay is essential garabage to me, unless you are making it for others to read.
Posts: 8,540

02-23-2007, 03:05 PM	#137
greg63 Homer go crazy!!! Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: SE Kansas Casino cash: $9134990	kcchiefsfanGoLJ? I think your username is entirely too short. Well at least it's more imaginable then greg63. __________________
Posts: 17,615

02-23-2007, 03:08 PM	#138
El Jefe Don't tread on me. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Where the peaches grow Casino cash: $9030572	Yeah I know I have a lot of different sites I am on and I have used that the most so I can remember it easier. Although I only go on two sites, this one and Ohio Game and Fish. The rest I just sign up and never use LOL.
Posts: 8,540

02-23-2007, 03:13 PM	#140
El Jefe Don't tread on me. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Where the peaches grow Casino cash: $9030572	Pitt Gorilla, I still dont have a clue, is he off a movie or something?
Posts: 8,540

02-23-2007, 03:21 PM	#142
Redrum_69 Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: your nightmares Casino cash: $10004900	Dont you have a tranny to be working on...or are we to interpet that your dad is a tranny and you post here because your mom is whoring out on the street corner and you cant handle the fact that you are just 19 years old, and a born again Christian.
Posts: 6,358

02-23-2007, 03:48 PM	#143
El Jefe Don't tread on me. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Where the peaches grow Casino cash: $9030572	Jenson71, oh ok.
Posts: 8,540